NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

[scoops]

Indeed. Maura had (at least) two confirmed car accidents within those last few days. But we don't know with certainty she was drinking during either of the two car accidents, do we? (This relates to one of my pet frustrations about this case: so much of what has become canonical knowledge is really rooted in hear-say and entrenched speculation.)

Good Point., although she had been drinking most of the night right before her first wreck and her second wreck included an empty beer bottle in her car and a cup of mixed alcohol and soda under her car.

But on that note. Maybe they weren't actual car wrecks either. Maybe the rail at the T-intersection of Maura's first wreck caught a huge wind gust and bent right into her car as she was attempting to turn. We don't know for sure. We can only speculate.

 

[leilarose68]

This actually goes against what I believe happened to Maura, but its worth noting because its true if the police reports are accurate.

Both of Maura's car wrecks in the span of 48 hours involved her crashing into something head-on, with the second wreck even having a witness hearing an acceleration right before a boom.

Now, I don't neccesarily believe Maura was trying to wreck herself to death, but two head-on collisions in 48 hours is something to take note of.

It is painfully obvious to me that Maura set out to commit suicide that night. Whether or not she was intercepted by a stranger as she left the car + abducted is up for debate + honestly unknowable... but this was a seriously troubled woman and I think her family's in denial, honestly. She buys a book about hikers getting lost and dying in the mountains that apparently she brought in her car with her? Emotional instability leading up to the event? Credit card theft? Getting kicked out of West Point awhile back (while her family says she's transferred I've heard other stories)? Multiple car crashes? And then you have the fact that her mother somehow doesn't want to help out in this case at all (probably a seriously weird relationship), and Maura's absolutely pin-thin frame with her jutting out collarbone in photos and her sad eyes.
and THEN you have the fact that she bought tons of alcohol IMO obviously to numb the pain of intentionally freezing to death in the mountains, which has been done in quite a few suicides. I think Maura knew that suicide by freezing was somewhat painless because your body doesn't feel anything fairly quickly, and alcohol would expedite that process. It would be like falling asleep. she probably knew this from reading her 'favorite book.'
And then the fact that she called her boyfriend and left a voicemessage of her shivering and whimpering. I think she was having doubts about the suicide or wanted to say goodbye but didn't have the energy because her body was shutting down.

It's possible she was abducted as she left the car, but undoubtedly this woman was very very troubled and suicide should be the top theory.

EDIT::: UMMM wow. have people on the forum read this commentabout Maura Murray running off to Quebec? reads more like a story to me, but interesting. i do think something's weird about the father, honestly

http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2012/02/does-mauras-cousin-know-true-story-of.html

 

[leilarose68]

I may be the only one but I am not willing to concede that she was an emotional wreck. It makes the suicide theory much neater but it's not a requirement for suicide. A person in emotional distress would be less likely, IMO, to put the level of planning into this trip north that Maura did. The breakdown at work after the phone call is the only evidence of emotion from Maura that I have ever heard of. She then partied with friends and went car shopping with Fred and went to dinner with Fred and Kate. The SBD did not describe the driver of the Saturn as frantic or emotional. I think she had a lot on her mind, whether she was started over or planning to end it all, but not an emotional wreck. Her conduct and actions seemied more that of a person with a plan who was carrying it out in a fairly rational manner.

i'm sorry, but does no one see the pained smile and sad eyes in every photo of maura? and maybe it's because i've suffered too, but her pin-thin frame just screams an eating disorder to me. she looks frail and uncomfortable in her skin
i think maura was really suffering for a long time, had been reading the book about hikers dying in the mtns for a long time, and then starting freaking out right before she was about to execute her plan. or maybe her eating disorder was just making her so crazy she felt she had no choice.
i think the family is in deep denial or just totally oblivious...idk. i can see the pain so clearly in her eyes

 

[leilarose68]

okay, the more i read about this family, especially Fred, the weirder i think they are. they have some deep secrets IMO. sorry to be negative, but I really don't think people are what they seem here. at all.

 

[Captain_Khan]

It is painfully obvious to me that Maura set out to commit suicide that night. Whether or not she was intercepted by a stranger as she left the car + abducted is up for debate + honestly unknowable... but this was a seriously troubled woman and I think her family's in denial, honestly. She buys a book about hikers getting lost and dying in the mountains that apparently she brought in her car with her? Emotional instability leading up to the event? Credit card theft? Getting kicked out of West Point awhile back (while her family says she's transferred I've heard other stories)? Multiple car crashes? And then you have the fact that her mother somehow doesn't want to help out in this case at all (probably a seriously weird relationship), and Maura's absolutely pin-thin frame with her jutting out collarbone in photos and her sad eyes.
and THEN you have the fact that she bought tons of alcohol IMO obviously to numb the pain of intentionally freezing to death in the mountains, which has been done in quite a few suicides. I think Maura knew that suicide by freezing was somewhat painless because your body doesn't feel anything fairly quickly, and alcohol would expedite that process. It would be like falling asleep. she probably knew this from reading her 'favorite book.'
And then the fact that she called her boyfriend and left a voicemessage of her shivering and whimpering. I think she was having doubts about the suicide or wanted to say goodbye but didn't have the energy because her body was shutting down.

There's a few competing theories here that should be pointed out. I won't tackle them in any order, just the order they come to me.

The book - 'Not Without Peril'. I really don't think that Maura, a hiker, having a book about hiking, suggests any form of suicidal intent. I believe it was an exceptionally popular book, and relevant to Maura's interests, so I don't see that as suspicious at all.

The emotional instability is extremely interesting, but again to me does not point to suicide. I always believed Maura was going somewhere in order to do something – to sort something out she couldn’t do locally. Her wavering moods beforehand strike me as belonging to someone who needs helps – but I think Maura set out to get that.

Getting kicked out of West Point? We don’t know the full story there. I will point out, though, that it wasn’t like that had put her life in any kind of desperate situation – she was studying at UMass and by all accounts doing well. If anything, that was a hurdle Maura had already fully overcome. Did her family give her grief about it? Who knows.

I think the credit card theft may be related to what happened to Maura, if indeed it is true. She was in trouble. But don’t forget, a lot of people manage to get in a lot of trouble before they turn to suicide.

Maybe she wanted to take the alcohol with her to wherever she was going? Considering she left most of it in the car, we can’t really conclude she wanted to use it to ‘numb the pain’ of death.

Comments on her appearance aren’t really helpful. Maura was a runner, so you might expect her to be slim. It doesn’t really add anything to the case.

The voicemail has been disregarded. There is no signal in the mountains, and the call was traced back to someone unrelated to the case who needed to discuss military leave with Billy.

As I understand it, Maura's mother was not a well woman. Laurie Murray died a few years after Maura went missing, and I believed she suffered from very poor health before that. I would not translate her lack of physical searching as a coldness towards her daughter or the situation.

Lastly, I always reasoned that since Maura was a nursing student, she probably had access to a hundred and one easier ways to kill herself that didn’t involve making a long, miserable drive and a slow, cold death.

To claim she was planning to commit suicide in that way is also disregarding a lot of the evidence against that idea. There was no note, no contact with any friends or family members, an email stating she intended to return to UMass, she bothered to pack her things away (not at all usual for a suicide). Signs point to big changes in Maura’s life, but not suicide, in my opinion.

 

[leilarose68]

There's a few competing theories here that should be pointed out. I won't tackle them in any order, just the order they come to me.

The book - 'Not Without Peril'. I really don't think that Maura, a hiker, having a book about hiking, suggests any form of suicidal intent. I believe it was an exceptionally popular book, and relevant to Maura's interests, so I don't see that as suspicious at all.

The emotional instability is extremely interesting, but again to me does not point to suicide. I always believed Maura was going somewhere in order to do something – to sort something out she couldn’t do locally. Her wavering moods beforehand strike me as belonging to someone who needs helps – but I think Maura set out to get that.

Getting kicked out of West Point? We don’t know the full story there. I will point out, though, that it wasn’t like that had put her life in any kind of desperate situation – she was studying at UMass and by all accounts doing well. If anything, that was a hurdle Maura had already fully overcome. Did her family give her grief about it? Who knows.

I think the credit card theft may be related to what happened to Maura, if indeed it is true. She was in trouble. But don’t forget, a lot of people manage to get in a lot of trouble before they turn to suicide.

Maybe she wanted to take the alcohol with her to wherever she was going? Considering she left most of it in the car, we can’t really conclude she wanted to use it to ‘numb the pain’ of death.

Comments on her appearance aren’t really helpful. Maura was a runner, so you might expect her to be slim. It doesn’t really add anything to the case.

The voicemail has been disregarded. There is no signal in the mountains, and the call was traced back to someone unrelated to the case who needed to discuss military leave with Billy.

As I understand it, Maura's mother was not a well woman. Laurie Murray died a few years after Maura went missing, and I believed she suffered from very poor health before that. I would not translate her lack of physical searching as a coldness towards her daughter or the situation.

Lastly, I always reasoned that since Maura was a nursing student, she probably had access to a hundred and one easier ways to kill herself that didn’t involve making a long, miserable drive and a slow, cold death.

To claim she was planning to commit suicide in that way is also disregarding a lot of the evidence against that idea. There was no note, no contact with any friends or family members, an email stating she intended to return to UMass, she bothered to pack her things away (not at all usual for a suicide). Signs point to big changes in Maura’s life, but not suicide, in my opinion.

With all due respect, drinking oneself to death in the freezing cold is actually one of the most 'pleasant' ways to commit suicide, for lack of a better way to put it. You basically don't feel a thing. it's pretty painless... and Maura clearly loved the outdoors---she would go hiking with her brother Kurt, and loved that Peril book, so I think it's safe to say she enjoyed the mountains and woods and they had special meaning for her. It could have been a pilgrimage of sorts---as a runner, and one with notable endurance, she must have appreciated something about long journeys. Also from her favorite book she might've learned more about how quickly the body shuts down in a hypothermic condition and how alcohol renders it basically painless. Apparently she took 2 or 3 bottles with her out of the car which is way more than enough to get so drunk that you don't feel the cold. And she was very skinny so it probably wouldn't take much.
Sometimes people like to die in a place they love. I don't think it's always about convenience. I mean, so many people travel to the Golden Gate Bridge every year just to commit suicide. I think it's sometimes about getting away and going to a place that feels beautiful in one's mind.
Also, if Maura were bringing the alcohol with her to take to wherever she's going just because, why didn't she bring a bit of food or anything else? If she was going to stay up there for awhile, you'd thing she'd have bought more stuff.

I don't think Maura's physical appearance is totally irrelevant at all. There were lots of rumors of her eating disorder + honestly, just because someone is a runner doesn't mean they don't have this kind of issue. on the contrary, young 'star athletes' often have lots of body issues because there's so much pressure to achieve, often stemming from parental expectation.
combine that with the fact that pretty much every person who's come into contact with maura's father, especially in relation to her running, calls him incredibly over-bearing and controlling... always screaming at her meets and such. there just seemed to be lots of pressure on maura and her body... i've had an eating disorder myself and been in a clinic with lots of girls who have them and i feel like i generally am good at seeing them in people. maura looks terribly sad and generally uncomfortable in her very thin, bony body in every photo i see of her. Eating disorders drive so many people to suicide + suicide has always been a possible theory in this case, so I feel like it isn't an idea to totally disregard

with regard to west point: who transfers from west point to a state school? it has been stated in many diff places that she got kicked out for one reason or another and that seems more logical to me than transferring. And again, while to most people going to a state school isn't a technically dire situation, Maura was put under lots of pressure to achieve and perhaps not going to West Pt anymore made her feel like a failure

If you really look into the case you'll see there's a whole lot of clamming up on the part of the family, and it doesn't seem like everything was honkydory among them. at all. i also don't think that maura not leaving a note rules out suicide. because the family seems to have interesting relationshps with one another and have skewed certain events and generally not opened up about aspects of maura's life, it's hard to know what they have or have not mentioned, or if there's another agenda going on that we all don't know of.

fyi after i wrote that previous post i've been reading more about the case and i think it's very very likely maura was a runaway. but again... maura was definitely not in good mental shape and i still think the suicide theory is possible. she seems more troubled and with so many secrets the deeper you dig

 

[scoops]

With all due respect, drinking oneself to death in the freezing cold is actually one of the most 'pleasant' ways to commit suicide, for lack of a better way to put it. You basically don't feel a thing. it's pretty painless... and Maura clearly loved the outdoors---she would go hiking with her brother Kurt, and loved that Peril book, so I think it's safe to say she enjoyed the mountains and woods and they had special meaning for her. It could have been a pilgrimage of sorts---as a runner, and one with notable endurance, she must have appreciated something about long journeys. Also from her favorite book she might've learned more about how quickly the body shuts down in a hypothermic condition and how alcohol renders it basically painless. Apparently she took 2 or 3 bottles with her out of the car which is way more than enough to get so drunk that you don't feel the cold. And she was very skinny so it probably wouldn't take much.
Sometimes people like to die in a place they love. I don't think it's always about convenience. I mean, so many people travel to the Golden Gate Bridge every year just to commit suicide. I think it's sometimes about getting away and going to a place that feels beautiful in one's mind.
Also, if Maura were bringing the alcohol with her to take to wherever she's going just because, why didn't she bring a bit of food or anything else? If she was going to stay up there for awhile, you'd thing she'd have bought more stuff.

I don't think Maura's physical appearance is totally irrelevant at all. There were lots of rumors of her eating disorder + honestly, just because someone is a runner doesn't mean they don't have this kind of issue. on the contrary, young 'star athletes' often have lots of body issues because there's so much pressure to achieve, often stemming from parental expectation.
combine that with the fact that pretty much every person who's come into contact with maura's father, especially in relation to her running, calls him incredibly over-bearing and controlling... always screaming at her meets and such. there just seemed to be lots of pressure on maura and her body... i've had an eating disorder myself and been in a clinic with lots of girls who have them and i feel like i generally am good at seeing them in people. maura looks terribly sad and generally uncomfortable in her very thin, bony body in every photo i see of her. Eating disorders drive so many people to suicide + suicide has always been a possible theory in this case, so I feel like it isn't an idea to totally disregard

with regard to west point: who transfers from west point to a state school? it has been stated in many diff places that she got kicked out for one reason or another and that seems more logical to me than transferring. And again, while to most people going to a state school isn't a technically dire situation, Maura was put under lots of pressure to achieve and perhaps not going to West Pt anymore made her feel like a failure

If you really look into the case you'll see there's a whole lot of clamming up on the part of the family, and it doesn't seem like everything was honkydory among them. at all. i also don't think that maura not leaving a note rules out suicide. because the family seems to have interesting relationshps with one another and have skewed certain events and generally not opened up about aspects of maura's life, it's hard to know what they have or have not mentioned, or if there's another agenda going on that we all don't know of.

fyi after i wrote that previous post i've been reading more about the case and i think it's very very likely maura was a runaway. but again... maura was definitely not in good mental shape and i still think the suicide theory is possible. she seems more troubled and with so many secrets the deeper you dig

You also can't discount the fact that Fred had told all of his kids that if he ever got to the point of feeling worthless in life, he would head for the mountains and drink himself to death.

Notice, fred didn't say he would hang himself or overdose on pills or something that would be a much faster way of dying, he said he would head for the mountains (why) because to him and Maura the mountains were their favorite place in the world and you can conclude that they would want to spend their last moments on earth in them.


It is also alleged that fred told his other daughter's ex boyfriend that they would find Maura at the top of a mountain naked (in the early days after Maura went missing and they were looking for her).


What an odd thing to day, except for the fact that it would probably be true if someone did head up a mountain and froze themselves to death. Instinctually, they would strip off their clothes, it's a very common thing to happen when someone experiences hypothermia.


On why there was no suicide note:

The second car accident. It wasn't planned. Maura's plans had to make an abrupt change at that point.

 

[leilarose68]

You also can't discount the fact that Fred had told all of his kids that if he ever got to the point of feeling worthless in life, he would head for the mountains and drink himself to death.

Notice, fred didn't say he would hang himself or overdose on pills or something that would be a much faster way of dying, he said he would head for the mountains (why) because to him and Maura the mountains were their favorite place in the world and you can conclude that they would want to spend their last moments on earth in them.


It is also alleged that fred told his other daughter's ex boyfriend that they would find Maura at the top of a mountain naked (in the early days after Maura went missing and they were looking for her).


What an odd thing to day, except for the fact that it would probably be true if someone did head up a mountain and froze themselves to death. Instinctually, they would strip off their clothes, it's a very common thing to happen when someone experiences hypothermia.


On why there was no suicide note:

The second car accident. It wasn't planned. Maura's plans had to make an abrupt change at that point.

I generally wouldn't believe ex-boyfriends of troubled daughters BUT fred has said some pretty wacky stuff over the years and just reading a few of these wacky statements he's made, I could see him saying something as weird as that.
By all accounts from people who know him, Fred is at best a very weird, intense guy. At worst... he's something else in people's eyes. I definitely think there was something very Off about Frank's relationship with Maura. I'm not trying to insinuate anything specifically just... there is something very wrong there.

 

[scoops]

I generally wouldn't believe ex-boyfriends of troubled daughters BUT fred has said some pretty wacky stuff over the years and just reading a few of these wacky statements he's made, I could see him saying something as weird as that.
By all accounts from people who know him, Fred is at best a very weird, intense guy. At worst... he's something else in people's eyes. I definitely think there was something very Off about Frank's relationship with Maura. I'm not trying to insinuate anything specifically just... there is something very wrong there.

I would disagree with you there. I don't find Fred to be weird and the fact that he has had two daughters at west point (not an easy place to get accepted and make it) makes me believe he did a pretty good job of parenting.

As far as ex'es are concerned. I agree with you, you can't trust things they say when they are no longer in the picture, however, the comment made about fred pointing to the mountains and saying Maura will be found up there naked is something the ex boyfriend of Maura's sister didn't even know what fred was trying to say at that time.

So its hard to believe that he would make that up when he doesn't even know what fred was meaning by pointing up to the mountains and saying what he said.

 

[leilarose68]

I would disagree with you there. I don't find Fred to be weird and the fact that he has had two daughters at west point (not an easy place to get accepted and make it) makes me believe he did a pretty good job of parenting.

As far as ex'es are concerned. I agree with you, you can't trust things they say when they are no longer in the picture, however, the comment made about fred pointing to the mountains and saying Maura will be found up there naked is something the ex boyfriend of Maura's sister didn't even know what fred was trying to say at that time.

So its hard to believe that he would make that up when he doesn't even know what fred was meaning by pointing up to the mountains and saying what he said.

you think that just because someone's daughter gets into a good college, they're a good parent? you've GOT to be kidding me. that's really weird logic, honestly. i have plenty of friends who are very intelligent and went to great schools and had awful parents with major issues.
all it tells me is that maura was really bright and motivated in high school or fred really cracked the whip.

and yes, fred is weird and described my most people as volatile. he was completely unreachable by police after maura's disappearance, was very reluctant to sit down with detectives... there is quite clearly a lot he isn't telling.

--He's said things like: 'She's gone to the North Country to commit suicide, to go off and die like an old squaw' to Scarzina, who was a policeman involved w the case at the time.
--Fred totally dismissed any discussion of WHY Maura might have been missing: "That's not important. She's missing. Find her."
---And then you have the weird aspect of Fred saying that he told his daughter to put a rag in the tailpipe of the car to help the car or something, which doesn't make any sense... No one seems to be able to wrap their head around that one
I don't think this means Fred was COMPLICIT in maura's disappearance, but there is just too much weird behavior from him that it makes me convinced there's a lot he's not telling.

 

[scoops]

you think that just because someone's daughter gets into a good college, they're a good parent? you've GOT to be kidding me. that's really weird logic, honestly. i have plenty of friends who are very intelligent and went to great schools and had awful parents with major issues.
all it tells me is that maura was really bright and motivated in high school or fred really cracked the whip.

and yes, fred is weird and described my most people as volatile. he was completely unreachable by police after maura's disappearance, was very reluctant to sit down with detectives... there is quite clearly a lot he isn't telling.

--He's said things like: 'She's gone to the North Country to commit suicide, to go off and die like an old squaw' to Scarzina, who was a policeman involved w the case at the time.
--Fred totally dismissed any discussion of WHY Maura might have been missing: "That's not important. She's missing. Find her."
---And then you have the weird aspect of Fred saying that he told his daughter to put a rag in the tailpipe of the car to help the car or something, which doesn't make any sense... No one seems to be able to wrap their head around that one
I don't think this means Fred was COMPLICIT in maura's disappearance, but there is just too much weird behavior from him that it makes me convinced there's a lot he's not telling.

Your points are well taken, but I see fred has more of a calculating type person than weird.

I believe he realized early on (like first few days) that it was already too late. His Daughter had passed away. there was a small window of time for police to find his daughter and they failed to do so.

And Fred has spent the rest of the time (in the view of the public) trying to hold police accountable for letting Maura disappear and not being more aggressive in the beginning at finding her.

I believe that is why he wanted the records released in this case, so he could show spots where police didn't do their jobs.

I also believe that is why he comes off (to the public) as someone that isn't very cooperative and only wants to focus on things he wants to focus on.

If he really believed Maura was still alive, living it up in Canada or driving on an endless world tour with a mysterty friend or that Maura was kidnapped, IMO, his focus (to the public) would be less about what the police have and haven't done and more about how the public can help him find his daughter.

 

[leilarose68]

Your points are well taken, but I see fred has more of a calculating type person than weird.

I believe he realized early on (like first few days) that it was already too late. His Daughter had passed away. there was a small window of time for police to find his daughter and they failed to do so.

And Fred has spent the rest of the time (in the view of the public) trying to hold police accountable for letting Maura disappear and not being more aggressive in the beginning at finding her.

I believe that is why he wanted the records released in this case, so he could show spots where police didn't do their jobs.

I also believe that is why he comes off (to the public) as someone that isn't very cooperative and only wants to focus on things he wants to focus on.

If he really believed Maura was still alive, living it up in Canada or driving on an endless world tour with a mysterty friend or that Maura was kidnapped, IMO, his focus (to the public) would be less about what the police have and haven't done and more about how the public can help him find his daughter.

so you think fred thinks she committed suicide?

If he felt that she was abducted, that's really stupid for him to believe it was 'too late.' abductees aren't always killed right away.

doesn't he want the police to recover her daughter's body and find out who did it? why is his motive always getting someone back for 'wronging' him?

 

[KenShabby]

i'm sorry, but does no one see the pained smile and sad eyes in every photo of maura?

What I've noticed in many of the familiar photos of Maura is that her smiling facial expression is practically identical from one photo to the next. So, if not "pained," it may have been her default smile — a mask.

 

[leilarose68]

What I've noticed in many of the familiar photos of Maura is that her smiling facial expression is practically identical from one photo to the next. So, if not "pained," it may have been her default smile — a mask.

she looks like a deeply depressed, troubled person who's putting on a happy face. the key is that the eyes don't match the smile, and you're right... the smile always looks the same, as if practiced and not spontaneous/natural.

 

[Masterj]

In most threads on WS, families of missing people are considered victims unless the police have named them as a suspect. I often wonder why Fred Murray is not afforded that same courtesy here.

 

[leilarose68]

In most threads on WS, families of missing people are considered victims unless the police have named them as a suspect. I often wonder why Fred Murray is not afforded that same courtesy here.

Probably because he refused to sit down with police for 2.5 years after Maura's disappearance and brought his lawyers with him when he finally did. for someone w nothing to hide that's...um, pretty weird? also his absolute antagonism toward law enforcement and telling different people different stories and timelines of why he was visiting maura that weekend. and then the issue of the rag in the tailpipe, where his adamant explanation or excuse for it just doesn't make much sense

to ignore fred murray's odd behavior is to ignore a huge part of why this case is so bizarre. no one's saying he DID it whatever that would mean, but it seems pretty obvious he knows more than he's telling. also, he would never be named a 'suspect.' if the abduction theory is accurate, he wouldn't have been the abductor. but he knows things about maura;s personal life, and what they were doing that weekend and things he might have said to her that played a key role in this disappearance. none of which he's been clear on. perhaps he's been protecting maura, which in some sense is understandable, but i think it's a real disservice to maura's case to ignore the ways in which fred seems to be evading giving too much honest info

 

[kimmie0313]

I feel for Fred, I really do. I can't imagine having my child missing and also having everyone glaring down on my every word. Picking apart all that I said. What heartache :-(

Maybe Fred feels that their personal life was just that, personal.

I can't really blame him for "lawyering up". I've never been in his situation, and hope never to be, but I've always heard that having an attorney present isn't an admission of guilt and can at times be a good idea. It wouldn't be my personal preference if I had nothing to hide, but I can understand why some would see differently.

 

[leilarose68]

I feel for Fred, I really do. I can't imagine having my child missing and also having everyone glaring down on my every word. Picking apart all that I said. What heartache :-(

Maybe Fred feels that their personal life was just that, personal.

I can't really blame him for "lawyering up". I've never been in his situation, and hope never to be, but I've always heard that having an attorney present isn't an admission of guilt and can at times be a good idea. It wouldn't be my personal preference if I had nothing to hide, but I can understand why some would see differently.

I guess he wants to keep this in the family but unfortunately this is a crime investigation. While Maura's disappearance is very personal, the case isn't. It is a case that people are involved in, that has torn up the town of haverhill in more than one way, and pay their tax dollars toward (money that could have gone to another case where people DID share all they know) and that has entered public consciousness. I understand Fred possibly wants to protect his daughter, but then he should understand that the fact that he had not agreed to sit down w the police for 2.5 years after the investigation and didn't have a consistent story for what he and Maura were doing that weekend + consistent refusal to discuss theories or Maura's background to the police... will cause people to speculate
How do we even know that it's all to protect maura? we don't know that, because nothing is for sure. all we know is that he has been inconsistent and evasive, and that should be looked at, as everything in her case should. he can't say 'oh it was a suicide' and then, 'no, someone took her' and refuse to expect anything less than the police changing tack everytime he says so... without actual background information.
And I definitely agree with you---lawyering up is usually not an admission of guilt or withholding information or whatever, I just think in conjunction with him not speaking for over 2 years it speaks volumes about what he may be withholding.
So while I am truly sorry for Fred's loss as well as the rest of the family + my heart feels deeply for Maura, Fred's figure in this whole case looms large and to not discuss his behavior + how he's proceeded would be an incomplete way of looking at the case. and as i've said, i don't think fred is 'guilty' i just think he's kept a lot of information back that may or may not have taken the case farther than it went and changed the intensity with which LE explored possible avenues.
or not. it's possible that fred knows exactly what happened to maura and it's pointless to speculate anymore because she's passed on by her own hand for sure or something or perhaps the folktale is true and she IS up in Canada and he's trying to protect her privacy, but we don't know that. all we know is maura is missing and we have some inconsistencies and missing info here

 

[kimmie0313]

I guess he wants to keep this in the family but unfortunately this is a crime investigation. While Maura's disappearance is very personal, the case isn't. It is a case that people are involved in, that has torn up the town of haverhill in more than one way, and pay their tax dollars toward (money that could have gone to another case where people DID share all they know) and that has entered public consciousness. I understand Fred possibly wants to protect his daughter, but then he should understand that the fact that he had not agreed to sit down w the police for 2.5 years after the investigation and didn't have a consistent story for what he and Maura were doing that weekend + consistent refusal to discuss theories or Maura's background to the police... will cause people to speculate
How do we even know that it's all to protect maura? we don't know that, because nothing is for sure. all we know is that he has been inconsistent and evasive, and that should be looked at, as everything in her case should. he can't say 'oh it was a suicide' and then, 'no, someone took her' and refuse to expect anything less than the police changing tack everytime he says so... without actual background information.
And I definitely agree with you---lawyering up is usually not an admission of guilt or withholding information or whatever, I just think in conjunction with him not speaking for over 2 years it speaks volumes about what he may be withholding.
So while I am truly sorry for Fred's loss as well as the rest of the family + my heart feels deeply for Maura, Fred's figure in this whole case looms large and to not discuss his behavior + how he's proceeded would be an incomplete way of looking at the case. and as i've said, i don't think fred is 'guilty' i just think he's kept a lot of information back that may or may not have taken the case farther than it went and changed the intensity with which LE explored possible avenues.
or not. it's possible that fred knows exactly what happened to maura and it's pointless to speculate anymore because she's passed on by her own hand for sure or something, but we don't know that. all we know is maura is missing and we have some inconsistencies and missing info here

I haven't been following this case for very long and def don't know all the details like so many of u do. For example, I didn't know that Fred didn't speak with LE for 2.5 yrs. Hmmmm....that IS interesting. Thanks for passing the knowledge ;-)

 

[Simply Caustic]

At my dad's restaurant in Chicagoland area, and just saw a young lady in the drive thru drinking her drink through a licorice whip. Couldn't help but think of Maura. Positive thoughts going out to get family today

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