NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

[BillNH]

Guys, I want so badly to believe that there is some substance to this news + that it cracks this case wide open, I really do... but I just don't. And I've followed it since I was a freshman at UMass when Maura went missing (crazily enough: my roommate at the time had gone to her same high school). I remember that flier going up in my dorm in the middle of that February. It was 2004.

Based on Renner's recent posts: Maura + friends went to a supermarket called Butson's in Woodsville the evening of February 9th, 2004, around 5:45-6:00pm. It sounds like Butson's was one of a few outlets in a small supermarket chain that was locally owned + operated in that area of New Hampshire. However, a much larger (but still quite provincial) supermarket chain, Shaw's, bought them out + took over later.

Here's where things get thrown off for me: A quick search yields three different news stories archived such that Shaw's took over the Woodsvile Butson's in October 2003 - a few months before Maura's trip to Woodsville - and that the transition happened rather quickly. If that's the case, Butson's was not Butson's in Woodsville in February 2004 - it was already Shaw's. That seems like quite a big detail not to have correct. I am willing to be wrong, I really am, but I'm wondering if someone else has an answer for this that says otherwise.

Links here:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Shaw'...r+Butson's+Associates+Hired+by...-a0109228256
http://www.nhbr.com/Archive-2003/Shaws-strategy-raises-competition-questions/
http://business.highbeam.com/4524/article-1G1-108718701/shaw-buys-butson-cs

I live here, people still call it Butsons. Does not seem odd at all that an employee would refer to it as Butsons just a few months after the conversion. There was a closed Ames store here when I moved here in 05', it has been an Ocean State Job Lots for about 8 years. Most people that were here when it was Ames, still refer to it as Ames. Since the story appears to be true, by admission of the family, what this person calls the store is really a non-issue. IMO.

Edit. There was a Butsons in Littleton as well and even though the location is now a bank and some retail stores, many long time residents still call the location "Butsons". I am a long time buffalo bills fan, even though their stadium has not been called "Rich Stadium" for many years, that's what I still call it. It's not unusual.

 

[Fireweed]

Scoops, I do not think you are wrong per se; I simply think that you have made an assumption about the purpose of that trip that may or may not be correct. If Maura went to the north country with friends, it might not have been for one last party before they helped her to disappear. I know Renner has said that he thinks Maura went there with someone else, but he never once said that he thought the purpose of that trip was to party one last time together. That is what you alone have stated, and then you claim that Renner's theory is wrong because the "last hurrah" thing makes no sense you, when that is not even something that Renner claimed happened.

 

[southernyankee]

I live here, people still call it Butsons. Does not seem odd at all that an employee would refer to it as Butsons just a few months after the conversion. There was a closed Ames store here when I moved here in 05', it has been an Ocean State Job Lots for about 8 years. Most people that were here when it was Ames, still refer to it as Ames. Since the story appears to be true, by admission of the family, what this person calls the store is really a non-issue. IMO.

Edit. There was a Butsons in Littleton as well and even though the location is now a bank and some retail stores, many long time residents still call the location "Butsons". I am a long time buffalo bills fan, even though their stadium has not been called "Rich Stadium" for many years, that's what I still call it. It's not unusual.

Ohh, you know, that does make sense. I'm sorry, I got excited, rushed off to search a few things, and just discounted it thinking that if everything had been converted to Shaw's, there'd have been more uniform treatment of security cameras + the like had all the changes been instituted by February 2004. This is what I get for assuming things! I'm so sorry and I stand corrected.

As for locals continuing to call a place by its previous ownership's name - I can certainly think of a few cases of that myself - back in New England AND where I live now.

'nother thought, though: That whole situation with the red truck? That was talked about later when all sorts of things were being hashed out on the Internet -it came out in the wash much sooner. Not that this may not have some real merit - but we don't know the identity of the witness (as we do with the red truck) and we cannot be certain the girls were definitely Maura + friends, but it's worth digging deeper.

 

[scoops]

Scoops, I do not think you are wrong per se; I simply think that you have made an assumption about the purpose of that trip that may or may not be correct. If Maura went to the north country with friends, it might not have been for one last party before they helped her to disappear. I know Renner has said that he thinks Maura went there with someone else, but he never once said that he thought the purpose of that trip was to party one last time together. That is what you alone have stated, and then you claim that Renner's theory is wrong because the "last hurrah" thing makes no sense you, when that is not even something that Renner claimed happened.

that's odd ... because I have personally never used language such as "partying" when describing Maura's mental state that day she went missing.

In fact, I have always been consistent in believing that Maura was highly depressed when she left her campus and the alcohol she bought (however much it was) was all for her.\

It was James and several posters on his blog who attempted to discredit that theory by saying that the "Type" of alcohol Maura bought was more indicative of someone who was (throwing/going to) a party.

So if james believes Maura went to the white mountains in tandem with friends and the alcohol purchased was for everyone and Maura was then going to go on and start a new life, I would say that is all pretty consistent with what I have been saying all along. (ABOUT JAMES'ES THEORY)

Yes I have tied different statements together to form a narrative, but I am not making this stuff up and then arguing the made-up stuff to discredit anyone.

I have never believed Maura was in a party mood that day she went missing myself. it was others who didn't want to believe that Maura was capable of drinking herself to death.

 

[BillNH]

We do know that the comments James is attributing to Sara Alfieri have never been proven to be her and likely were not made by her, but rather Maura's other friend Kate.

It makes sort of a big difference because the comments that were actually made ("I didn't want to get Maura in trouble" were made by one of Maura's friends who were being interviewed by police.


If I offer up to a reporter that I am not going to say anymore because I don't want to get my friend in trouble, then I am implying that I know more about the situation and I am just not giving any more comments.


If I tell a police officer (during an interview about my missing friend that everyone is so desperately looking for) that I am not saying anymore because I don't want to get my Friend in trouble, I would be in some serious trouble.

The truth of the matter is the police already knew the answer to what they were asking Maura's friend during the interview and they were just waiting and ready to see how the friend would respond.
And when the friend left out a key detail, the investigator called out Maura's friend who then replied "I just didn't want to get Maura in trouble."

Same statement we are talking about, but under a completely different context.

Is there documented proof of any of this? Especially the bolded "truth" of the matter?

Or, is this more strung together narrative to bolster your theory and discredit James' theory?

 

[scoops]

Is there documented proof of any of this? Especially the bolded "truth" of the matter?

Or, is this more strung together narrative to bolster your theory and discredit James' theory?

Of Course there is proof.

We will start back in March of 2013 when James - on his blog - attempted to cast Sara Alfieri in a suspicious light.

James Renner ---

"Sara, as you recall, was at that late-night party with Maura Murray and Kate Markopoulos, the weekend before Maura disappeared, the same night she got in the accident in Hadley, Mass. Sara was once interviewed by a magazine and seemed to imply she had more info but didn't want to get Maura in trouble. There's been much speculation as to what she meant by this and so I visited her today to see if she could clear it up.
The conversation was over, though, as soon as I introduced myself. This young woman was scared. Not by me. I look like Fox Mulder's little brother for God's sake. But by being found. She is hiding and I have no idea why. "How did you find me?" she asked.

When asked directly about what happened the night of the party and who else was there, all she said was "I can't talk about that," and closed the door.

Two major flaws with this account by James.

Sara never told a magazine or any reporter ever that she had more information, but didn't want to get Maura in trouble (MORE ON THAT TO COME).

James paints Sara later in his post above as someone unwilling to talk about the party in her dorm room that Saturday night before Maura went missing.

In one of two interviews Sara Alfieri has ever done publically, (Quincy Patriot Ledger) Sara talks in detail about that Saturday night dorm party and goes on to say that she had passed out long before Maura and Kate had left her dorm room. Sara (who talked to Maura the very next day) also noted that Maura never even mentioned the car accident she had gotten into while attempting to go to her father's motel. Sara, according to her, only found out about that first accident after Maura had gone missing.

 

[scoops]

More quotes from James from a different blog post:

"Sara told Seventeen she didn't want to say more because she didn't want to get Maura in trouble.
Why, after all these years, are Sara and Kate still keeping secret the identities of the other people at that party? Why will they not speak about what happened there? It seems an important bit of info that might help find their missing friend."


I have the seventeen book that featured this story and Sara Alfieri never made any comment whatsoever like James has implied.

I believe it to be an honest mistake by James, I really do.

Sara hasn't given many public interviews over the years and a friend of Maura's did in fact say at one time, that they didn't want to say anymore because it might've led to Maura getting in more trouble, but the key is IT HAS NEVER BEEN RELEASED THE SPECIFIC FRIEND THAT SAID THIS.

Here is where the actual quote came from, a Boston Globe newspaper article done in March of 2004, just one month after Maura went missing:

"The more details are revealed, the more baffling the case becomes, police acknowledge. Yesterday, Thrasher said that Maura had fastidiously packed all her belongings into boxes before she left school, even removing the art from her dorm room walls. Meanwhile, one UMass friend has seemingly withheld information from police, saying she didn't want to get Maura "in trouble."
UMass investigators, who have interviewed dozens of potential witnesses and combed through Murray's computer, shared an in-depth timeline that preceded the disappearance.


The big point to know about this, is this is not information coming from the UMASS Friend of Maura. This is information relayed to the reporter of this story by police.

Police are telling this reporter that one of Maura's friends wasn't fully forthcoming with them. IF the friend was truly keeping some bombshell secret from the police, then guess what, they would not know that.

This friend had to be called out by police during their interview.

The only other scenario would be that police asked this friend of Maura's if there was anything else she wasn't telling them, and this person replied "there is, but I just don't feel like telling you. I know everyone is looking for Maura, but I don't want to get her in trouble.

That makes zero sense.

This big secret was probably the dorm party that happened that Saturday night (the fact Maura was drinking and driving and somehow escaped a dui) and if Sara is to be believed from her interview with the quincy patriot ledger that she was asleep when Maura left her dorm that would mean that Kate would be the one to know Maura's intoxication state at the time Maura got in a car and decided to drive in the middle of the night to her father's hotel.

Therefore, I conclude that the "UMASS Friend" police were actually interviewing was KATE and not SARA.

Also to point out: I can look at all this in context, and I don't believe Sara knows anymore than anyone else about what happed to Maura.

James has inadvertently taken a quote and attributed it to Sara without it ever being established and that quote over time has built into this big secret that supposedly this person knows about Maura evidenced by this post from James very recently:

"And they continue to keep secret the "real story" Maura's friend Sara Alfieri told them about Maura's last weekend.
There is some ulterior motive here."


The real story, apparently, is based on a quote a UMASS FRIEND made to police during an investigation on what happened to Maura and that quote has never been linked to Sara Alfieri.

 

[southernyankee]

Not to be too presumptive, but "party" mood feels like the wrong angle here as to Maura's state of mind the day she left campus (Monday)...if anything, it was less about celebrating, and more about escaping. I guess I would say "escape" better captures her mood. Physically + emotionally escaping - driving away, the alcohol purchase, and even the few quotes we have from those who had communication with her that day + the day before.

Monday early afternoon, she wrote in an e-mail to her boyfriend, Billy, "I got your messages, but honestly, I didn't feel like talking to much of anyone, I promise to call today though." And even when Butch Atwood inquired whether she needed help, she reportedly said she'd already called AAA. (Translation: "I don't need your help/let me be on this.")

It's possible she was aiming to meet up with someone to "party" later, but her prerogative in any case that day points strongly to getting the heck out of dodge + not having to deal with her recent problems on top of her routine responsibilities + obligations.

 

[Wetworth]

I have a thought that I haven't seen expressed anywhere in the discussion of this case, although I haven't been through all the posts since the beginning. I've been the first person to the scene of an accident several times, one where alcohol was involved, and people act DUMB. I don't know what severity the accident must be to send a person into shock, but I have never been at the scene of an accident where the driver has acted rationally. In my experience, this takes the form of refusing to move the vehicle and themselves to a safer place. However, I witnessed an accident where a drunk woman rolled her S-10 pickup into a ditch. Luckily the drive wheels ended up suspended over the ditch, because she had the throttle wide open when I stopped. After getting her to turn the truck off she spent the following 15 minutes trying to piece together a broken taillight, until the police arrived. While I could communicate in limited amounts, I couldn't verbally get her to follow my suggestions. She was quickly arrested and the last I saw she was literally chewing the drivers seat of a police car.

I guess what my long winded point is, how much may the proceeding days matter in Maura's disappearance if she was under the influence of alcohol and in shock following the accident? People can do things that make no sense and have no basis in reality under those circumstances. I'm not trying to offer an explanation to what ultimately happened, but I believe there is a very real chance that her mental state was deteriorated well beyond being merely buzzed.

TL;DR I believe Maura may have been suffering from shock following the accident.

 

[Wetworth]

I'd also like to point out what I consider to be a few red herrings:

- The book. I like to read books in the region of their topic. For example, I took a book about missing Great Lake freighters the last time I visited friends on the shore of Lake Erie, but I've never considered shipping out.
- The rag in the tailpipe. I believe it is entirely possible that the combined effects of alcohol and shock led her to do something that makes no sense to anyone, even herself at better times. This also goes for locking a disabled vehicle.
- The Petrit hit and run. It's possible, but there is, as far as I've seen, zero evidence.
- The packed dorm room. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Maura was only in the dorm a short time (2 weeks) before she disappeared. It is very plausible that she never unpacked, let alone hung things on the wall.

I'd also like to say that the idea of Maura traveling in tandem with another vehicle for any reason makes less sense to me than any other explanation. Why would the other car not stop when Maura crashed? I could see someone following/leading her to a new life, but once she hits a snowbank hard enough to deploy the airbags, anyone's natural reaction is to stop to check on their friend, not keep their distance to in case a bus driver trundles along.

As far as I can imagine, this is the purposed scenario: Two cars are travelling together. This means within visual distance of one another. Maura is unable to navigate a turn and crashes with enough force to deploy the airbags. The second car, rather than stopping, then proceeds to a position not visible by the bus driver, whose presence is unforeseen. After the bus driver leaves, the second car returns, despite not knowing whether or not there is more traffic coming or the eta of the police, to pick up Maura, then drives on. This makes no sense. It was dark and the situation would have been confused. No one in the supposed party could know that there would be only one person to arrive upon the scene before the police, nor when they would arrive. Because of these timing issues, I don't believe the accident could have been planned either.

Someone please disagree with me, I would love to have more information about this case.

 

[Fireweed]

Let's say that Maura was behind the other car. She is perhaps not following very closely, so it takes a while for the lead tandem car to conclude that she stopped. It could have taken the lead car 5 minutes to have decided that they needed to turn around and head back, and let's say that they needed a couple more minutes before they found a good turn around point. That could have easily been 10 to 15 minutes before they got back to where Maura was.

Everyone's arguments against Maura driving tandem with someone presupposes that Maura would have been the lead car.

 

[Gene S.]

Let's say that Maura was behind the other car. She is perhaps not following very closely, so it takes a while for the lead tandem car to conclude that she stopped. It could have taken the lead car 5 minutes to have decided that they needed to turn around and head back, and let's say that they needed a couple more minutes before they found a good turn around point. That could have easily been 10 to 15 minutes before they got back to where Maura was.

Everyone's arguments against Maura driving tandem with someone presupposes that Maura would have been the lead car.

If she had lost contact with a car ahead of her, she may have been driving faster than normal to attempt to catch up which could have contributed to her wrecking on the curve.

 

[Fireweed]

True, especially if she was not getting cell service. If the tandem theory is right, then Maura could have been following. Perhaps she got behind a little and spend up to catch up which caused the wreck. She walked away from the crash site a ways and flagged down her tandem people when she saw them coming back. Recall that cell phones did not work in that area then. I believe that the witnesses did see the light from her phone. I think she was trying to call and could not get a signal, and that she left the scene once she realized that the cops were probably coming.

 

[Tssiemer]

I was trying to rack my brain to figure out what would be so important to hide out for 10 years from your family and friends if she is still alive. A child is the only reason I could come up with. I also came up with avoiding a murder charge but I just don't see the Vasi connection.


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[stephsb]

Vasi didn't die though....so she may have been avoiding charges initially but she wouldn't be anymore.


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[Vox_Veritas_JT]

I must say its interesting to read scoops recent posts tempering this recent lead unearthed by James Renner. Scoops does a great service by challenging the evidence and I say this sincerely. Having said that I do hope this sighting turns out to be true. It would certainly explain for me ambivalent feelings I have about Maura taking the alcohol and disappearing so suddenly. It also makes the rag in the tailpipe look even more suspicious.

Where I out and out disagree with James Renner is in Maura being alive. I just cannot believe a young girl like Maura could survive off the grid for ten years, or even if she could would want to put friends and family through so much pain in staying hidden. I can however believe that some foul play might well have occurred if Maura can be confirmed as travelling with these girls. Who and what kind of foul play I could not even speculate on.

 

[stephsb]

IMO, if this sighting of MM w. 2 other girls ends up being true, I think it's most likely she met w. foul play of some sort. I've believed she went to the White Mountains to commit suicide since first learning about this case, although I definitely can see a scenario where she died due to the elements or some sort of accident/foul play after leaving the scene of the accident being possible. I have never bought into the theory that MM was driving in tandem to start a new life, and did so successfully and is living off the grid somewhere or under a new identity. I can't think of a single scenario in MM's life that would be serious enough that she would allow yourself to remain "missing" for 10 years, knowing that her family has been searching for her the entire time, and that her mother died on her birthday w.o ever knowing what happened to her. Even if she did decide she had to disappear and start her life over at 21 because of some crisis in her life at the time (pregnancy, a hit and run, potential charges for credit card fraud, a bad relationship w. her boyfriend, etc) it's very likely that w. maturity she may realize that her reasons for initially running away and cutting all ties weren't as terrible as she thought. I don't believe she was ever involved in the Vasi hit and run, but I can see someone panicking in the immediate aftermath and running away because they are terrified of facing manslaughter charges. I can't see someone continuing to remain hidden all these years knowing that Vasi didn't die...especially seeing how much it has hurt her family.

I guess what I'm basically saying is that if she is alive and choosing to remain missing and have no contact w. her family, then there must be some huge secret we don't know about...none of the theories that have been given for her choosing to start a new life and remain missing for the last ten years have been good enough, at least IMO.

 

[Fireweed]

I agree with those who wonder what on earth could have driven Maura to disappear for good and start a whole new life. It is definitely one reason why I do not discount her being dead. However, of the cases I have seen of people who just took off and were found many years later, not one of them had problems that were so massive that they needed to just run away. They all had relatively minor financial problems, or were having interpersonal issues with their families, but beyond those cases of millionaires caught up in ponzi schemes or other kinds of fraud, I have yet to see a case of a person who took off on their own accord who actually had what would objectively be considered insurmountable problems. Subjectively to them, however, they were.

 

[scoops]

The driving in tandem theory has never made a lick of sense to me, both from a reasoning standpoint and from an evidence standpoint as multiple witnesses had eyes on Maura (by herself) at the site of her wreck up until she went missing.

We are supposed to believe that Maura's "Friends" Sara and Kate were in on this big plan to help Maura ditch her current life and begin a secret one in parts unkown. Sara and kate were casual friends, linked together only through knowing Maura for different reasons.

Both Kate and Sara have gone on record (after Maura has gone missing) stating that they most likely didn't know her that well and that Maura kept her personal business to herself.

So they are either "all in" on this now 11 year scheme, even though the two probably haven't even spoken to each other in years.

What would be their motivation for keeping Maura's disappearance a secret?

Where is the true evidence that Maura even had a Partner or partners with her up in the white mountains, because Maura dialed a phone number to a condo that had more than one bedroom?

If that is the proof of a tandem driver, then that is pretty weak sauce.


Also, if these "friends" were truly aiding Maura in disappearing, then what was their role?

Maura drove her own car into the white mountains, she wouldn't need any assistance doing that.

Maura would've continued on by herself, so what exactly were these tandem drivers roles anyways?

That whole theory makes little sense.

 

[Fireweed]

Scoops, you ask a lot of good questions, which is exactly what we're trying to figure out an answer. I do not think anyone has said that they know for sure that Maura was driving in tandem with someone. What we are doing is seeing if that theory would pan out in light of some of the things we know.

For example, we know that Maura's body or her living self were never found, even after extensive searches. To me anyway, that makes the tandem theory possible. It would explain why no one ever came forward claiming that they gave her a ride.

Again, no one here has, IMO, come up with good reasons as to why the tandem theory is ludicrous or does not make sense.