NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

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Maura's disappeared episode is on today, on Discovery ID at 1:00pm EST.
 
Fireweed said:
Yes but the police have to subpoena such records and follow other procedures, all the Rausches had to do was open their damn mail.

Sure LE should have been a little more on the ball, but hey, maybe they were just believing the Murrays and the Rausches at this point, and so, you know, Maura's past was irrelevant and it did not matter who she called that day, right? I mean, how on earth could the Murrays and the Rausches possibly be critical of LE for not looking? Isn't that exactly what they want? They claim a dirt bag up there grabbed her, so why would Maura's phone calls from earlier that day even matter? So why are they down on LE about this? It makes no sense to me, considering that why Maura went up there and where she was heading has absolutely nothing to do with her disappearance.
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Immediately after receiving the cell phone bill, the Rausches forwarded it to the police. Last I checked, making any phone calls on their own would classify as "interfering with a police investigation." Remember how upset the police were about the alleged knife that Fred Murray received from someone, becaues it didn't follow proper chain of custody procedures? Can't have it both ways.

After seven or eight months or whatever, they were extremely frustrated with the police investigation, which is why they made those phone calls. In the beginning, this wasn't the case. After that much time, the investigation widens.

Your logic is extremely flawed if you think that it can be settled by using the argument that the family believes what happened before Maura's disappearance "doesn't matter." They were looking for what she did AFTER the disappearance--where she might have gone. Including the Salamones. It mattered who she called that day very much, because it indicated plans she was making towards being in the mountains. It seems you're more interested in proving me wrong than in logically trying to think this through, which is disappointing--not to mention baffling.
 
I’ve actually driven the route, from the opposite direction Maura would have been driving. Labour Day long weekend 2010, my now-wife and I were in the White Mountains for the first time, staying at a small motel in Franconia. We wanted to explore the area, and I was curious to see the spot where MM disappeared. We took the Interstate down to the Lincoln exit, and drove the 112 from Lincoln to Haverhill. I did not tell my wife why I was driving there; I didn't want to creep her out. She doesn't share my obsession with missing persons cases and finds it a little odd (though endearing, I hope). As far as she was concerned, it was just a casual drive to see more of the area.

Not a word of a lie, a minute or two before we reached the spot, my wife blurted out, "OK, if someone committed a murder and dumped the body here, nobody would ever find it." She was completely taken by the remoteness and the wildness of the area. So I started to explain to her that that may have been exactly what happened just up ahead. Before I even had time to get into it, the blue ribbon marking the spot where her car was found came into view to our left, along with the Weathered Barn up ahead. I was expecting that, since I had already Google Streetviewed the route and seen the ribbon, but my wife had no idea about any of it. We drove some pretty remote stretches during that weekend, and I’ve always found it telling that she chose that exact moment to say what she did. That area just feels more remote than anywhere else.

There are a few houses right where Maura disappeared, but a mile or so further up 112 into the White Mountain forest, where she made that comment, it is extreme wilderness. You catch glimpses of the Wild Ammonoosuc River winding along the road on one side, and perhaps the odd cabin or camper back in the woods a bit on the other, but other than that, you feel almost like the forest is closing in on you. That area is so rugged and expansive and the forest so dense, you’d never cover it all with search teams and dogs. Remains could easily be missed, even by cadaver dogs. My mind has bounced from theory to theory for ten years now, but when I think of that drive, I believe she is not far from where she was last seen. Not far at all.
 
I am trying to research something re this case.....does anyone happen to know JM's (MM's sister) middle initial?

Many thanks.
 
Jane Birch said:
Immediately after receiving the cell phone bill, the Rausches forwarded it to the police. Last I checked, making any phone calls on their own would classify as "interfering with a police investigation." Remember how upset the police were about the alleged knife that Fred Murray received from someone, becaues it didn't follow proper chain of custody procedures? Can't have it both ways.

After seven or eight months or whatever, they were extremely frustrated with the police investigation, which is why they made those phone calls. In the beginning, this wasn't the case. After that much time, the investigation widens.

Your logic is extremely flawed if you think that it can be settled by using the argument that the family believes what happened before Maura's disappearance "doesn't matter." They were looking for what she did AFTER the disappearance--where she might have gone. Including the Salamones. It mattered who she called that day very much, because it indicated plans she was making towards being in the mountains. It seems you're more interested in proving me wrong than in logically trying to think this through, which is disappointing--not to mention baffling.
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Helloooo....um this is the point I have been trying to make on this board for many months now, and the point that others have been trying to make for years: that what Maura did in the day (and days) leading up to her disappearance may have had an effect on what happened to her after she disappeared. It is the Murrays and Rausches who insist it does not, when of course it very well could.

My logic is fine; it the logic of Maura's family that is flawed.

My point was that clearly the Murrays and the Rausches could not possibly be at all upset by the police not investigating a phone call made by Maura before she disappeared. They have repeatedly insisted that what happened in Maura's life is "irrelevant." Would that not include a phone call? I mean if some local dirtbag grabbed her, then why would that call matter? I am simple using their own flawed logic against them. Of course that phone call matters - it goes to Maura's state of mind and her intended destination.
 
Fireweed said:
Helloooo....um this is the point I have been trying to make on this board for many months now, and the point that others have been trying to make for years: that what Maura did in the day (and days) leading up to her disappearance may have had an effect on what happened to her after she disappeared. It is the Murrays and Rausches who insist it does not, when of course it very well could.

My logic is fine; it the logic of Maura's family that is flawed.

My point was that clearly the Murrays and the Rausches could not possibly be at all upset by the police not investigating a phone call made by Maura before she disappeared. They have repeatedly insisted that what happened in Maura's life is "irrelevant." Would that not include a phone call? I mean if some local dirtbag grabbed her, then why would that call matter? I am simple using their own flawed logic against them. Of course that phone call matters - it goes to Maura's state of mind and her intended destination.
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That's not how logic works, dude. Sorry.
 
djcoma said:
lol me too. I think they are arguing the same point but Jane Birch doesn't realize that.
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No, I'm pointing out that it's utterly ridiculous to blame the Rausches for not doing something that was the police's job.

As soon as Maura's cell phone records came in the mail, the Rausches forwarded them to the police. This presumably involved opening them, and it also involves the understanding that the police would make thorough use of them in the investigation.

Several months later, they learned that this was not the case. On learning that the police hadn't called any of the numbers Maura had dialed, they did it themselves out of desperation.

The point that I am making remains that you cannot and should not blame the Rausches for not calling the Salamones until several months later, because the police had this information since the beginning, and since it's their investigation, it's their responsibility to do something with it.

The Rausche's logic was, to put it simply so you can understand it, that the police would do their job and follow up all possible leads.
 
You are assuming that the official investigation gave them reason to call those numbers. If their official investigation excluded the condo as pertinent, they would have no reason to call.
 
Jane Birch said:
No, I'm pointing out that it's utterly ridiculous to blame the Rausches for not doing something that was the police's job.
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@Jane Birch — With due respect (and since you have called-out people on their logic), I think that what you're doing here (perhaps inadvertently) is constructing a straw man. As far as I can tell, no one here is blaming the Rausches for failing to do the police's job, or suggesting that it was the Raushces "job" to do anything. Some people have been critical / skeptical of the Rausches because they seem to be part of the chorus of people close to the Murray family that has insisted that Maura's life at the time of her disappearance was rosy, and that nothing that was going on in her life before she went missing is relevant to the case. (How can they possibly know for sure. . . unless they do, in fact, know more than they are saying?) In any event, that line of thinking is not satisfactory to many of us.
 
KenShabby said:
@Jane Birch — With due respect (and since you have called-out people on their logic), I think that what you're doing here (perhaps inadvertently) is constructing a straw man. As far as I can tell, no one here is blaming the Rausches for failing to do the police's job, or suggesting that it was the Raushces "job" to do anything. Some people have been critical / skeptical of the Rausches because they seem to be part of the chorus of people close to the Murray family that has insisted that Maura's life at the time of her disappearance was rosy, and that nothing that was going on in her life before she went missing is relevant to the case. (How can they possibly know for sure. . . unless they do, in fact, know more than they are saying?) In any event, that line of thinking is not satisfactory to many of us.
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If anything, according to the Disappeared episode, BR's mom was all in this investigation. I wonder if she still is involved since BR moved on.


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Blessed2Bme said:
In case anyone missed Fred's interview with Montel Williams in Nov. 2004



Maura Murray on Montel Williams Nov 29 2004 - YouTube
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So, I remember there was some discussion about this interview a while back. Several people talked about Fred's suspicious behavior in this particular interview and his supposed "dog and pony show". I'm not saying I think it is or is not, but I'm just curious what some of you are seeing in this interview that makes you feel that way?
 
I have not posted about this case for quite awhile. Some may remember me and others may not but big smile and wave to all.

I am one of those who try to look at all possibilities in a case. In missing person cases I look at the missing person (unless evidence like witness saw foul play) and then the family or others that knew the missing person unless compelling evidence dictates otherwise. Why look at the victim first? Most missing persons are not victims of foul play (as in murder or kidnap) so I look to see if there are indications of runaway. Then one must look to see if family might have made the missing person disappear (as in foul play.) Then the search widens outward from there.

Just to be thorough I have considered both runaway and foul play and in doing so I looked at maura herself (as in runaway or suicide) and even
considered her family (as in possibility of murder) and then her boyfriend and any other person she might have been involved with in any way
(given the limits of what's been made available to the public.)

I am very careful about 'official' online forums and websites in such cases. There have been instances when websites claimed to be official sites
connected with some case or other but were just hoaxes. Just because someone says they are official
it does not mean it is true and just because someone says they are family it does not mean that they are infact family.
And even if family says a thing is so in a missing person case there are many reasons why it might not actually be so. Maybe they
don't want the world to think badly of their family or the missing person and so paint things as being more rosy than it was
or in some cases there are bad reasons they leave the truth behind and in some other cases they are pretty sure the missing person is a runaway
but can't find the missing person on their own and so want the police and public to think its a crime so that the police use their greater pool of
abilities and resources to find the missing person.
I think my caution and lack of trust in that way angered some of her family and friends and although I feel really bad about that I don't think believing everything as gospel that every friend or family says in a case would be good sleuthing. I listen but I think about all the possibilities.
My goal is to see as good a result as possible. If maura was a victim of foul play then I want her set free (if kidnapped) or (if murdered) her remains found and brought home but if she was a runaway I would hope for a healing between her and her family in time.
A live maura free and well would be my hope and I would like it if any rift (if one existed) between her and her family would be healed in time.

Those who know my past posts know that for now I came down on the side of a runaway scenario but I remain open to other possibilites if evidence
comes to light to make me think differently.

I noticed that the maura murray missing website had a song by a friend of hers on it and I approve of that. If she is a runaway maybe
something like that will eventually cause her to rethink things for a better outcome for all.

For those who feel badly towards the family for an abrasive attitude at times I tell this little story:
When my wife (who has survived to this day) was being treated for Leukemia her parents were really upset and at times got really pushy and abrasive to be around but they were too stressed out to think clearly.

We all have varying degrees of people skills and scary times can make flaws that much worse.
So we need to keep that in mind with others with a daughter who they worry may die or may be dead.
Even if we find some people hard to agree with we can still all search for the truth and hope for the best. . . although at times we may have to sleuth from a distance.
 
BillNH said:
You are assuming that the official investigation gave them reason to call those numbers. If their official investigation excluded the condo as pertinent, they would have no reason to call.
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Yeah, and how are they going to do that, exactly, without speaking to the people on the other end?

IT is routine police procedure to interview people who were the last to interact wit ha missing person. That's why people have made so much of Butch Atwood. Again with the not knowing how logic works.
 
Fireweed said:
Hey I was just thinking about something after reading some old articles on this case. So apparently it was eight months after Maura disappeared that Billy's mom took a good look at the cell phone records (because that is what people do - they wait eight months to do the obvious). Well anyway, it was then that everyone found out that Maura had made a phone call about renting a condo in Bartlett. See, if I was a family member or friend searching for Maura, once I found out about this, then my focus would shift to Bartlett. I would start to think that maybe she made it there that night.

Was Bartlett ever really looked into by anyone that closely? Because if Bartlett was her destination, it would make the most sense to me that she simply kept on going to her destination that night.
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Bolded by me. If you look back, this was the original post I responded to, by pointing out that the Rausches waited that long because they thought the police were doing it, since they'd asked for her phone records. Fireweed then responded blaming the Rausches for not interfering with the police investigation and calling them anyway.

Also, even if I *had* been making this exchange up, that's still not what a straw man argument is.
 
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