NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #12

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The question I have been asking for years. I do not discount the suicide theory at all; I simply wonder how Maura could have done it.

Some people go missing and die in plain sight... I'm thinking about the women who drove into a riverbed and weren't found for 50ish years? SHe could have gotten under things in a way that made her undetectable. It's not like people really look for her in a rigorous way anymore.
 
Some people go missing and die in plain sight... I'm thinking about the women who drove into a riverbed and weren't found for 50ish years? SHe could have gotten under things in a way that made her undetectable.

Sure she could have. But I still think that the prevailing suicide theory - death by alcohol and hypothermia - has a lot of logistical issues with it.
 
You're right, it's not specifically about suicide, but here's an excerpt from the official Amazon.com review of the book. Guess we looked at different reviews. It would be disingenuous to say that the book is your average book on mountains... clearly it does regale the deaths of hikers. I don't think you can read this summary and not consider it more deeply in the context of Maura's troubles and how she was heading to the mountains + in what light she herself considered them. JUst from reading this excerpt I can completely see how a person might romanticize death in the mountains.

Underlying Not Without Peril is the not-so-subtle message that the Presidential Range, topping out at just over 6,000 feet, is as uncompromising as any other mountain range. After all, these mountains--named for Washington, Lincoln, Madison--are home to some of the most vicious weather recorded on the planet. Howe makes no judgment about those whose misfortunes he chronicles; there are tender moments that manage to stay faithful to a crusty Yankee sensibility, as in the tale of Lizzie Bourne, who died in a snowstorm while huddled in a makeshift lean-to. Howe quotes her uncle George: "She was dead--had uttered no complaint, expressed no regret or fear, but passed silently away." Such sober tales, scrupulously researched, tell the history of a mountain range and its climbers, some of whom are immortalized for their ill-fated treks. It's a gritty read, a touch morbid, but more than compensated for by sharp writing and compelling drama.

This account in no way indicates suicide. Lizzie Bourne was hiking with her uncle George and her cousin Lucy when they were caught in a storm. She became cold and confused. I have also seen suggestions that she may have had a heart condition that contributed to her death.

It would be disingenuous to imply that this story is about suicide.
 
This account in no way indicates suicide. Lizzie Bourne was hiking with her uncle George and her cousin Lucy when they were caught in a storm. She became cold and confused. I have also seen suggestions that she may have had a heart condition that contributed to her death.

It would be disingenuous to imply that this story is about suicide.

Did you read my comment? I clarified that it wasn't about suicide. I indicated that I wasn't entirely sure about the contents of the book from the beginning. Still, the book obviously is morbid in parts and you can see how someone might idealize death in the mountains from that passage alone.
 
Did you read my comment? I clarified that it wasn't about suicide. I indicated that I wasn't entirely sure about the contents of the book from the beginning. Still, the book obviously is morbid in parts and you can see how someone might idealize death in the mountains from that passage alone.

You went back and edited your comment after Carpanthers corrected you.
 
I read all of your comments. You told me that the book was about suicide, and fortunately I didn't take your word for it.

"You're right, it's not specifically about suicide, but here's an excerpt from the official Amazon.com review of the book. Guess we looked at different reviews. It would be disingenuous to say that the book is your average book on mountains... clearly it does regale the deaths of hikers."

When you say it is not specifically about suicide, you are implying that it is, in some way, about suicide.

How does owning a book in which people die by some other means make it more likely that a person was suicidal? I own a book where people die from rare diseases, because I am interested in diseases.
 
You went back and edited your comment after Carpanthers corrected you.

Oh... I didn't see her comment before I edited it. I kind of edit my comments a bunch, just because I think in fragments. Wasn't intentional.
 
I read all of your comments. You told me that the book was about suicide, and fortunately I didn't take your word for it.

"You're right, it's not specifically about suicide, but here's an excerpt from the official Amazon.com review of the book. Guess we looked at different reviews. It would be disingenuous to say that the book is your average book on mountains... clearly it does regale the deaths of hikers."

When you say it is not specifically about suicide, you are implying that it is, in some way, about suicide.

How does owning a book in which people die by some other means make it more likely that a person was suicidal? I own a book where people die from rare diseases, because I am interested in diseases.

I edit my comments a lot and I guess that caused some confusion. My bad.

I think you're nitpicking my words unnecessarily... can we just agree that the book in part focuses on death in the mountains + its' easy how someone could idealize death there too?

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that this book would MAKE her suicidal but I think a troubled person who already loved the mountains could read passages about death there and see them in a romantic light.

edit: this isn't just a book about the mountains, it is a book in part about people dying in the mountains. considering that she was traveling to the mountains when she went missing, i don't think one can just dismiss that this was her absolutely favorite bible of a book.
 
I own a book called "Death in Big Bend" and I like to hike in Big Bend. The book to me is all about how to stay alive. The book is a cautionary tale. It describes all the things that people did wrong in a hostile environment. Not Without Peril is in that same vein.
 
I own a book called "Death in Big Bend" and I like to hike in Big Bend. The book to me is all about how to stay alive. The book is a cautionary tale. It describes all the things that people did wrong in a hostile environment. Not Without Peril is in that same vein.

I guess you can interpret it in different ways. If you were a troubled person who idealized the mountains and loved a book that regaled a bunch of deaths in Big Bend, then I think the book should reasonably be considered in some way.

edit: AND went missing under mysterious circumstances at or near the mountains.
 
I edit my comments a lot and I guess that caused some confusion. My bad.

I think you're nitpicking my words unnecessarily... can we just agree that the book in part focuses on death in the mountains + its' easy how someone could idealize death there too?

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that this book would MAKE her suicidal but I think a troubled person who already loved the mountains could read passages about death there and see them in a romantic light.

edit: this isn't just a book about the mountains, it is a book in part about people dying in the mountains. considering that she was traveling to the mountains when she went missing, i don't think one can just dismiss that this was her absolutely favorite bible of a book.

You're the one putting words in my mouth. I asked how owning the book would make it more likely that a person was suicidal, not how the book would make Maura suicidal.
 
You're the one putting words in my mouth. I asked how owning the book would make it more likely that a person was suicidal, not how the book would make Maura suicidal.

I never said that the book would make Maura suicidal. I said that I could see how a troubled person might idealize death in the mountains more after reading passages like in the summary. I could see how someone in an already troubled frame of mind who already loved the mountains could see it as romantic.
 
You're the one putting words in my mouth. I asked how owning the book would make it more likely that a person was suicidal, not how the book would make Maura suicidal.

And she didn't just own the book, multiple people said that it was incredibly cherished by her.
 
I never said that the book would make Maura suicidal. I said that I could see how a troubled person might idealize death in the mountains more after reading passages like in the summary. I could see how someone in an already troubled frame of mind who already loved the mountains could see it as romantic.

I know that you didn't say the book would make Maura suicidal, you implied that I said it.

"Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that this book would MAKE her suicidal but I think a troubled person who already loved the mountains could read passages about death there and see them in a romantic light."
 
I guess you can interpret it in different ways. If you were a troubled person who idealized the mountains and loved a book that regaled a bunch of deaths in Big Bend, then I think the book should reasonably be considered in some way.

edit: AND went missing under mysterious circumstances at or near the mountains.

That is what I have been driving at. People claim that the book somehow proves suicide idealization, when I think it could show any number of things going on with Maura.

And for people who are not hikers, you would not understand, but books like this are almost guidelines for us about what can go wrong if you are not prepared, or if you make a poor decision. They are not really about death; they are more about the place and environment. I was trying to think of the best way to describe these books, but I guess the best I can come up with is simply a modern telling of the world's oldest stories. They are cautionary tales about the wilderness and mother nature. You read them like a cave boy would have listened to an elder around a campfire in 30,000 B.C.: their purpose is to teach you how to save your life, not how to end it.
 
That is what I have been driving at. People claim that the book somehow proves suicide idealization, when I think it could show any number of things going on with Maura.

And for people who are not hikers, you would not understand, but books like this are almost guidelines for us about what can go wrong if you are not prepared, or if you make a poor decision. They are not really about death; they are more about the place and environment. I was trying to think of the best way to describe these books, but I guess the best I can come up with is simply a modern telling of the world's oldest stories. They are cautionary tales about the wilderness and mother nature. You read them like a cave boy would have listened to an elder around a campfire in 30,000 B.C.: their purpose is to teach you how to save your life, not how to end it.

I think you might be a bit biased by your own perspective as hopefully you aren't as troubled as Maura! For most hikers this might be the case but as I said, Maura was incredibly troubled, the book is quite morbid, suicidal people often idealize the place where they commit suicide and this is where she disappeared.

I am not saying she necessarily was suicidal, she could have been, but she was very troubled at the very least.
 
Was it cherished by her for longer than the amount of time we believe she was suicidal?

She obviously was a very private person so it's hard to say how long she had been quite troubled for. The book could also have taken new meaning over time for her as well. Hard to say
 
Was it cherished by her for longer than the amount of time we believe she was suicidal?

Excellent point. I mean how long was Maura supposedly suicidal? A week? A month? Years? Was this a cherished book from a happier time in her life?
 
She obviously was a very private person so it's hard to say how long she had been quite troubled for. The book could also have taken new meaning over time for her.

If the book can take on new meanings, how do we know what the meaning of the book was at the time she disappeared?

Do you mean mentally troubled? What kind of troubled do you think Maura was?
 
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