NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #12

[Fireweed]

I do not think that a random abduction should be dismissed either. It is certainly possible, and as people point out this was not really one random day up there now was it? It was a day that a young woman vanished off the face of the earth. The thing with this case though, and I think it is the thing that fascinates so many people is that Maura was not going about her routine when this happened. She was sort of "running away" at the time she vanished. I know, I know. We do not know what she was doing up there, but she was definitely completely off from her normal life routine and appeared to be in an emotionally difficult point in her life.

Very often when a young woman is snatched at random by a stranger she is in the process of unloading her groceries, or walking from her apartment to her car to go to work. Maura was drinking and driving more than a 100 miles away from where she was "supposed" to be having ostensibly told no one of her plans after she lied about her reason for being gone from her life for an entire week after she got into two car accidents after she had an emotional breakdown in front of people after she had be charged with credit card fraud after she had been kicked out of west point for "stealing".

This is where Maura's case is so much more different than other cases of missing young women who were abducted by strangers. I do agree it is a possibility but there are people who come to this board and act like everyone is really daft for not seeing that it is obvious that Maura was abducted because she was an attractive young woman out alone after her car quit. Yes that is true, but we must always keep in mind that she was simultaneously very far from her routine at this point, and that her straying points to her running away.

 

[scoops]

The last few posts were right on the money.

Especially why a random abduction shouldn't be dismissed.

Also, trudging trough snow in winter in NH is no easy task either. Even in boots its no easy feat...you never know the depth or what your stepping into. Doing the same in shoes and socks? Your feet are wet blocks of ice after 30 minutes. I struggle to think anyone in their right mind would do such a thing, but you never know.

I'm not going to dismiss ideas and theories. Everyone has their own thoughts and it's interesting to read different points of view, even if it is rehashing information. Sure, some "arm chair sleuth" is probably not going to solve this one, but hearing new viewpoints isn't a bad thing - it's staying tuned in and being aware that possibly one day there might be resolve. Sure, Renner is writing a book, going to NH, talking with key players - we all can't do that on the same level. But, we can still discuss things and be open to new thoughts about the case. In the end, we are pretty much on on the same page. This isn't any closer to being solved than the day after it happened.

I don't think any theory should be out-right dismissed.

But I have never felt the abduction theory should be the one that you start from concerning this case.

Please don't forget that Maura just didn't go missing in some random place in the middle of nowhere.

She was heading right into the White Mountains - her favorite place in the entire world.


If the Griswold's went missing in the parking lot of Wally World and all that was left was their hideous looking station wagon and no trace of any of the family members, I don't know of too many people that would start their search for the family by throwing around abduction theories.

I would think the very first thing explored, would be the Wally World Theme Park.

The family likely went to the theme park. Their car is at the entrance to the park.

Could they have been abducted at gun point in the parking lot, just before they entered the theme park?

Sure.

But the probability would be very low IMO.


Same with Maura, she went missing as she was arriving into her favorite location on earth. She even brought with her a book about the White Mountains, that I don't know (to this day) how anyone could excuse for her having that book just coincidentally, regardless of what you think her interpretations of the book meant.

 

[Fireweed]

I don't think any theory should be out-right dismissed.

But I have never felt the abduction theory should be the one that you start from concerning this case.

Please don't forget that Maura just didn't go missing in some random place in the middle of nowhere.

She was heading right into the White Mountains - her favorite place in the entire world.


If the Griswold's went missing in the parking lot of Wally World and all that was left was their hideous looking station wagon and no trace of any of the family members, I don't know of too many people that would start their search for the family by throwing around abduction theories.

I would think the very first thing explored, would be the Wally World Theme Park.

The family likely went to the theme park. Their car is at the entrance to the park.

Could they have been abducted at gun point in the parking lot, just before they entered the theme park?

Sure.

But the probability would be very low IMO.


Same with Maura, she went missing as she was arriving into her favorite location on earth. She even brought with her a book about the White Mountains, that I don't know (to this day) how anyone could excuse for her having that book just coincidentally, regardless of what you think her interpretations of the book meant.

I do not think a lot of people necessarily think it is a coincidence, it is just that scoops, you have said that her ownership of it points to suicide and a lot of people refute that. I read the book. To me (as a hiker and outdoors person) the book is about survival not death. It is a cautionary book about what went wrong in the White Mountains that led to people's deaths. It is a book a person who wanted to survive in the White Mountains would read, not a book someone who wanted to die would read.

 

[scoops]

I do not think a lot of people necessarily think it is a coincidence, it is just that scoops, you have said that her ownership of it points to suicide and a lot of people refute that. I read the book. To me (as a hiker and outdoors person) the book is about survival not death. It is a cautionary book about what went wrong in the White Mountains that led to people's deaths. It is a book a person who wanted to survive in the White Mountains would read, not a book someone who wanted to die would read.

and that is a very fair point.

Because we can't get in the head of Maura to figure out what kind of impression that book left on her.

However, I have poured through dozens of reviews of this book (mostly from hikers) and the impression I was left with, that those same hazards and cautionary tales that you point to, also come across as ultimate challenges for some to take on and even some inspiration to be had from the lengths that perished hikers went to try and survive in such horrible circumstances

 

[Fireweed]

and that is a very fair point.

Because we can't get in the head of Maura to figure out what kind of impression that book left on her.

However, I have poured through dozens of reviews of this book (mostly from hikers) and the impression I was left with, that those same hazards and cautionary tales that you point to, also come across as ultimate challenges for some to take on and even some inspiration to be had from the lengths that perished hikers went to try and survive in such horrible circumstances

Have you yourself read the book?

 

[scoops]

Have you yourself read the book?

No I haven't.

The White Mountains really don't interest me at all.

And if I read the book, in no way would I come close to interpretating it the way someone like Maura would.

So I decided the best way I could go about getting into Maura's head, was to pour over reivews of the book by like-minded hikers who were familiar with the White Mountains.

I began noticing a theme.

The reviews talked about the tragedies of the deaths that took place, but they also would talk about what a majestic place the White Mountains truly was and that you could be there in the middle of the summer and all of a sudden be hit with weather that could literally kill you without any warning.

There were a lot of reviews I read where the hikers would say they were thankful for the stories, because it helps them make sure they are fully prepared when they go hiking. But many of these reviews also seemed to just love the gripping stories that the hikers who were unprepared, went through just trying to survive.

 

[Ozoner]

Also, trudging trough snow in winter in NH is no easy task either. Even in boots its no easy feat...you never know the depth or what your stepping into. Doing the same in shoes and socks? Your feet are wet blocks of ice after 30 minutes. I struggle to think anyone in their right mind would do such a thing, but you never know.

One thing that might be worth mentioning is that once fatigue had started to set in, the temptation to take a shortcut would have been great. If she had seen the lights of a town in the distance, she might have headed towards it even if that had meant going off the road. It is extremely difficult to judge the distance of lights at night; they often look close but then turn out to be miles away.
It's also possible that she got a lift but then left the person's vehicle at a different set of crossroads if the person was turning in the wrong direction (or if there was an argument, etc.). After that she could have gone off the roadway to pee, or just because she was drunk, and gotten hopelessly lost in a different place than where searchers were focused.
The fact that her body hasn't been found may not that be significant. I've read about numerous cases where a person wasn't found for years even though he or she was within a few hundred yards of where he or she was last seen.
Suicide is a real possibility, but it is just as likely that her coping mechanism was drinking, and that drinking contributed to her accidental death.

I do agree it is a possibility but there are people who come to this board and act like everyone is really daft for not seeing that it is obvious that Maura was abducted because she was an attractive young woman out alone after her car quit.

If people are claiming that she must have been abducted, well...that's kind of silly. It's a possibility, of course, but not the most likely one in this particular case.

Humans lying prone and motionless in the woods, in ravines, behind snowbanks, etc. are hard to spot.

I agree 100%. In a wooded area, she could be 100 feet off the road and still might not be found for years, if ever.

 

[Fireweed]

No I haven't.

The White Mountains really don't interest me at all.

And if I read the book, in no way would I come close to interpretating it the way someone like Maura would.

So I decided the best way I could go about getting into Maura's head, was to pour over reivews of the book by like-minded hikers who were familiar with the White Mountains.

I began noticing a theme.

The reviews talked about the tragedies of the deaths that took place, but they also would talk about what a majestic place the White Mountains truly was and that you could be there in the middle of the summer and all of a sudden be hit with weather that could literally kill you without any warning.

There were a lot of reviews I read where the hikers would say they were thankful for the stories, because it helps them make sure they are fully prepared when they go hiking. But many of these reviews also seemed to just love the gripping stories that the hikers who were unprepared, went through just trying to survive.

You of course don't have to read the book but it does seem a little strange that you have used it several times on this board as evidence that Maura was suicidal without having read it. Maybe I am the only one who finds that odd. Anyway, it is not an insult or anything but I read it even though I do not really have any interest in the White Mountains. Actually I read it because of you. You kept on bringing it up as something which supports the suicide theory and so I thought I really should read the book and not just know what it is about because there was no other way (IMO) for me to seriously join the conversation. I feel a little silly now.

Anyway none of us will ever know what the book meant to Maura, but I think if you actually read it you would see what kind of a book it is. It is more a history book of hiking in the White Mountains than anything else. If you just read the synopsis and reviews you would not know that.

 

[Steleheart]

You of course don't have to read the book but it does seem a little strange that you have used it several times on this board as evidence that Maura was suicidal without having read it. Maybe I am the only one who finds that odd. Anyway, it is not an insult or anything but I read it even though I do not really have any interest in the White Mountains. Actually I read it because of you. You kept on bringing it up as something which supports the suicide theory and so I thought I really should read the book and not just know what it is about because there was no other way (IMO) for me to seriously join the conversation. I feel a little silly now.

Anyway none of us will ever know what the book meant to Maura, but I think if you actually read it you would see what kind of a book it is. It is more a history book of hiking in the White Mountains than anything else. If you just read the synopsis and reviews you would not know that.

I have been going to the White Mountains for 30 years to the campgrounds off the Kank at Jigger Johnson and Passaconaway. No I have not done the 4000's But I have a niece who recently did 4 peaks in 2 days. There was a trail to reach all 4. But the 4000 club is a unique group of dedicated hikers.
I always took the book as a chronicle of survival. Against all adversity. Sure the stories of deaths are there, but not, to me, some sort of instruction on how to die there. More like how not to die there and how it's a real possibility that Maura held on to the idea of survival against adversity. Much like with her life.. I think it was Fred who made it seem backwards.


MOO

 

[cascade]

I think that, after she crashed her car and had refused help, she fled the scene. She did not want to get caught, not just for legal reasons, but because she didn’t want her family or anyone to know where she was and what she was doing. She probably got off the road and went into the woods. She may have walked for hours and walked many miles before she succumbed. The woods in that area look pretty vast, I’m rather convinced that her remains are there somewhere, possibly never to be found. I also believe that when she took her trip she had made up her mind about what she was going to do and it would always mean her demise. She wasn’t planning on going back to her family alive. The ‘death in the family’ e-mail was ominous and telling enough.

 

[Fireweed]

I have been going to the White Mountains for 30 years to the campgrounds off the Kank at Jigger Johnson and Passaconaway. No I have not done the 4000's But I have a niece who recently did 4 peaks in 2 days. There was a trail to reach all 4. But the 4000 club is a unique group of dedicated hikers.
I always took the book as a chronicle of survival. Against all adversity. Sure the stories of deaths are there, but not, to me, some sort of instruction on how to die there. More like how not to die there and how it's a real possibility that Maura held on to the idea of survival against adversity. Much like with her life.. I think it was Fred who made it seem backwards.


MOO

I took it as that too. Nothing about that book (to me anyway) points to its owners being suicidal. The people in the book who wind up dying were not suicidal - they were just regular folks who were out in the mountains. After having actually taken the time to read the book, I cannot conclude as scoops has that the book is evidence that Maura was suicidal. I do not disagree that we have evidence of Maura possibly being in a suicidal state but the book is something that a person who wants to survive would own. I know because I read the darn thing.

 

[scoops]

I have been going to the White Mountains for 30 years to the campgrounds off the Kank at Jigger Johnson and Passaconaway. No I have not done the 4000's But I have a niece who recently did 4 peaks in 2 days. There was a trail to reach all 4. But the 4000 club is a unique group of dedicated hikers. I always took the book as a chronicle of survival. Against all adversity. Sure the stories of deaths are there, but not, to me, some sort of instruction on how to die there. More like how not to die there and how it's a real possibility that Maura held on to the idea of survival against adversity. Much like with her life.. I think it was Fred who made it seem backwards.


MOO

Maura and her father were part of that group that you describe.

Just three months before Maura went missing, her and her father tackled several 4,000 footers in one extended weekend journey that spanned to different locations.

The same directions that were found in both Maura's car and off her computer (by investigators after she went missing) were to the same areas her and her father went hiking just three short months earlier.

It's not a crazy whack-a-doodle theory to conclude that Maura was headed for the mountains.

As far as the book being a how to commit suicide instructional, that doesn;t even make sense.

No one needs a book to tell them how to take their life. they could walk to the nearest closet and tie a belt around their neck and hang themselves. Or they could OD on pills.

Maura was an adventure-seeker who loved challenges.

I think (and this is pure opinion) that Maura was heavily inspired by that book just as I think she was heavily inspired by the White Mountains themselves and the danger they pose.

I think she adored the attempts that the ill-prepared hikers made, once confronted with the realization that they were likely not going to make it out alive, but they still faught anyways.

I think Maura got tired of her "normal" life and wanted to go out with a bang

 

[BillNH]

I have been going to the White Mountains for 30 years to the campgrounds off the Kank at Jigger Johnson and Passaconaway. No I have not done the 4000's But I have a niece who recently did 4 peaks in 2 days. There was a trail to reach all 4. But the 4000 club is a unique group of dedicated hikers.
I always took the book as a chronicle of survival. Against all adversity. Sure the stories of deaths are there, but not, to me, some sort of instruction on how to die there. More like how not to die there and how it's a real possibility that Maura held on to the idea of survival against adversity. Much like with her life.. I think it was Fred who made it seem backwards.


MOO

In reality, isn't a book about how to survive facing adversity also a book of how to die facing adversity? To survive you must do these things...conversely, to die you must avoid doing these things....
I don't think it can be one and not also the other. It depends on what you want to take from it.

 

[BillNH]

B

Did police initially come into contact with him because of his statement 3 months later or did they first approach him and got this statement?

It would be awfully strange to go to police with a lead if he was involved, even if it was for the sake of confusing them with a false lead.

I know many of you out there are locals to this area...Can anyone elaborate if there was much talk about these people as suspects? Obviously Atwood, Forcier, the red truck, brothers who made snow at Loon...lots of names thrown around. Did anyone locally seem to think there was a viable suspect at ANY point?

I personally didn't move to NH until a year after Maura disappeared but I believe everyone you mentioned was considered a suspect by the general public locally just like they are on here. I assume Attwood was the first officially unofficial suspect since he was the last one to see her up close. Rick Forcier (the construction worker) was likely the second unofficial suspect because 1) he lived right there on the corner, 2) he claimed to have not noticed emergency vehicles very close to his home the night she disappeared even though he allegedly arrived home while the emergency vehicle were still there and 3) he refused to allow a search of his property. Months later when his now ex wife went to police with his "sighting" he was looked at closely again but there really was no evidence he was involved even for a search warrant to get on his property.

 

[Captain_Khan]

She even brought with her a book about the White Mountains, that I don't know (to this day) how anyone could excuse for her having that book just coincidentally, regardless of what you think her interpretations of the book meant.

The thing is, nobody says it's a coincidence that she owned that book. It's a book about a hobby she loved. It's no coincidence she owned it at all. I own a book about missing people - that's no coincidence, I own it because I'm interested in missing people cases. If I went missing, would that book being on my person be reason enough to assume I staged my own disappearance? I really hope not.

I also don't think it's a coincidence she was in the white mountains. It was a place she (thought?) she knew well. Doesn't automatically indicate suicide to me.

Just my opinions, obviously.

 

[BillNH]

Gg

The thing is, nobody says it's a coincidence that she owned that book. It's a book about a hobby she loved. It's no coincidence she owned it at all. I own a book about missing people - that's no coincidence, I own it because I'm interested in missing people cases. If I went missing, would that book being on my person be reason enough to assume I staged my own disappearance? I really hope not.

I also don't think it's a coincidence she was in the white mountains. It was a place she (thought?) she knew well. Doesn't automatically indicate suicide to me.

Just my opinions, obviously.

I agree. The only purpose of my comment about the book was to show it could serve either purpose. How not to die in the White Mountains, and how to die in the White Mountains. As for its significance in regards to Maura, to me, it's a wash. It could be either or neither, thus, not any kind of clue.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

One thing that might be worth mentioning is that once fatigue had started to set in, the temptation to take a shortcut would have been great. If she had seen the lights of a town in the distance, she might have headed towards it even if that had meant going off the road. It is extremely difficult to judge the distance of lights at night; they often look close but then turn out to be miles away.

Yes! Just like the case of Brandon Swanson in Minnesota. His car broke down, and unfortunately he was disoriented (he saw some lights he thought belonged to a restaurant he knew, and told his parents to meet him there, but in reality he was miles away from where he thought he was). He left the road to cut across fields towards the lights, then his cell phone died... and he has never been found. He likely walked until exhausted, then succumbed to hypothermia, and that was in May. It doesn't have to be very cold for an improperly dressed person who is lost to die of hypothermia, especially if they've gotten damp (from weather or sweat) and there is a wind blowing. It can happen even with temps in the 50s.

It's also possible that she got a lift but then left the person's vehicle at a different set of crossroads if the person was turning in the wrong direction (or if there was an argument, etc.). After that she could have gone off the roadway to pee, or just because she was drunk, and gotten hopelessly lost in a different place than where searchers were focused.

Agreed. There are several reasons she might have left the road at some point. Maybe she ran a few miles down the road, then darted into the woods to avoid police. She'd probably rather get ticketed for leaving the scene of an accident than get a DUI, which at least in my state means mandatory jail time.

Or maybe she left the road because an approaching car slowed down, and given her vulnerable situation and the unknown intentions of the driver, she was afraid. She could have left the road far enough from the accident scene that her footprints were not noticed, or she could have gone up a driveway or side road, then entered the woods from there.

The fact that her body hasn't been found may not that be significant. I've read about numerous cases where a person wasn't found for years even though he or she was within a few hundred yards of where he or she was last seen.
Suicide is a real possibility, but it is just as likely that her coping mechanism was drinking, and that drinking contributed to her accidental death.

Absolutely. Alcohol consumption can also contribute to hypothermia, and both alcohol and hypothermia can cause disorientation and poor judgment. In fact, confusion and the inability to make good decisions are some of the first symptoms of hypothermia, as the brain is one of the first organs affected. Sitting down to rest can be fatal, as the cold ground leaches even more heat from the body. She could also have stepped in a hole, sprained or broken her ankle, passed out from the pain (or even just been unable to walk), and sadly, that would be that.

If people are claiming that she must have been abducted, well...that's kind of silly. It's a possibility, of course, but not the most likely one in this particular case.

I can't speak for anyone else, but abduction is not even my number one theory of what happened to her. I just think the statistical possibility is greater than some folks here have considered.

Subject to change with additional info, I think I'm at about 50% disorientation/accident/hypothermia, 40% abduction (or voluntary acceptance of help that ended badly), 5% suicide, and 5% falling into a parallel dimension. Kidding on that last one. But it is such a strange disappearance.

 

[Caffeine]

Even though most tend to classify "death by stranger" as a low probability scenario, it really would account for all the loose ends here. To an extent, dying in woods would as well. Of course, so would getting hit by plow driver. Even running away and starting a new life. But then you have to factor in, would Maura consciously make the decisions that would place her in these scenarios? Is she capable? Would these scenarios fully explain all aspects of her disappearance? Would it satisfy the fact the no trace of her has been found in over a decade?

Most typical theories here obviously would, for the most part. Running away is a valid idea. Dying in the woods would explain a lot. Abduction by a stranger certainly is a possibility. Surely all those could cover all the bases.

With running away, it would indeed explain a lot. But I am stuck on Maura's capability to pull this off. She was 21, seemingly drinking quite frequently, no hidden finances we've seen, no people we know about to facilitate this type of stunt. Plus, wouldn't there be easier ways to stage something like this? Lots of things come to mind, all of them ambiguous and don't require crashing your car with alcohol inside.

I'll admit, dying in the woods is very plausible. It would indeed satisfy just about all elements of her vanishing. But I do get hung up on Maura's decision making here. Knowingly hiding from the cops in the outskirts of the woods is one thing, but consciously going deep into the woods, unprepared, in the dark, in the cold etc, is that a logical decision to make, even if slightly intoxicated? Even if she did, wouldn't, at some point, she perhaps decide this is a worthless endeavor and just turn back? It's a series of choices and decisions that I just can't follow because, it's extremely reckless and seems to serve no ultimate purpose. What does she gain by doing this? The fact she manages to go on and pass away...despite snow, frozen ground, frozen bodies of water etc...her body remains undiscovered, without a single 'breadcrumb' left along the way. Again, totally possible of course, but this would require extremely poor prolonged judgement, and some amazing luck.

Then we have her being killed by a stranger. Obviously, no one is consciously going to leave personal items and clues around. So that could account for not a single of her belongings found. Of course, that would mean her body as well. When you factor in vast wilderness AND acres of private property that's a lot of places for concealment. What about motive? It could be simple as sex. Would Maura presumably accept help (perhaps in the form of a ride, something Atwood surely didn't offer) from a stranger? She has no cell reception and would have a lot of explaining to do when police arrive. It would be a risky choice, but would likely get her away from the scene quickly. Sure, its a poor decision, but when you weight the risk and benefit, not getting a DUI was likely the top priority at the time. Yes, it is very much statistically low this scenario would play out, but it would answer a lot of questions and would only require 1 small, but understandable bad decision, that would serve a purpose, that being avoidance of an arrest.

Ultimately, I don't know Maura's level of intoxication, if any. I don't know about her thought process or decision making. I can only draw conclusions based on what I feel would be probable choices on her part, that would explain the majority of events here. Unfortunately, we still have no inclination if the end result is bad luck, poor decisions, or a combination of several factors. :gaah:

 

[Fireweed]

In terms of Maura running away to start a new life, I simply must always point to people who actually did it as proof that no real planning, money or brilliance is required.

I could definitely see Maura fleeing the scene to avoid a DUI or other citation and feeling quite cold, alone and scared out there on the road an hour later and flagging down a stranger. This person is either responsible for her disappearance, or is someone who has no clue that Maura is missing.

To me it seems that more likely than a serial killer (or predator) is a drunk driver who struck Maura in the road and covered it up. I would guess that on any given night up there, there are plenty of people driving drunk and not too many kidnappers and murderers driving around.

 

[Caffeine]

Two things: A hit and run is possibility, definitely, but it's a hit and run...not hit, pick up body, transport body...run. If we're talking a guy who say, had a pick up truck with a plow attached, the damage would be minimal and covered up with a quick cleaning.

Even a regular truck...she's a 100+ lb girl, not a moose. More damage, yes but with no witnesses, why bother? I don't even think I saw a mention of police looking at that angle.

Though the idea of dying as a result of her fleeing a drunk driving incident and getting hit by a drunk driver... that would be a horrific twist. Overall, possible indeed, but probable...I dunno.

Second, sure many folks have voluntarily disappeared and went on to assume a new identity. But I wouldn't exactly call it a common occurrence, at least in proven incidents.

In terms of comparing statistics between adults who voluntarily vanished, were later found versus adults who vanished and were later found victims of foul play...I don't know if it's possible or accurate.

But foul play remains a common theme. People kill other people, it happens, frequently. Missing by choice? It happens, too, but in terms of frequency, I doubt it's even close.

In the end, when authorities lament that adults have the choice to go missing, in many ways it seems we are the getting the lofty indication that they have absolutely no idea what happened.