NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

[bisybee]

hey everyone! I've been following Maura's case for a while and have been lurking this forum and listening to the podcast as well..
I apologize in advance because I'm not extremely knowledgeable about certain aspects.. but I've had a theory for a while and wanted to see what people think

My theory is that Maura was going to continue her drive that night after the accident. I think that she probably got in her car to leave and couldn't start or drive her car. I think that she may have tried to call someone but there was no reception. she may have started walking down the road a bit trying to get in to an area with reception so that she could make a call. since she didn't want police involvement, that makes sense to me that she wouldn't knock on someone's door. I think that as she was walking, she heard sirens coming to her accident and fled in to the woods to hide. I think she had every intention of returning to her car but she got lost quickly due to how dark it was and her cell battery either died or because of no reception, she couldn't call anyone. I think that she tried to seek shelter in the wild somewhere from the wind and cold and then died from the exposure. I know the area was searched but I think that if her body is ever found, it will be somewhere fairly close to where she disappeared from. Close to a fallen tree or cave or large rock.. somewhere she sought shelter.

A couple things I have questions on that maybe others can answer

*calls that she placed that didn't connect due to no reception would not show up in the call records correct?

*do we know if there were in fact sirens to the accident that night? I'm not sure if its been thought of before but if there were, I think it makes it even more likely for her to hide if she had any idea they were coming.

* was her car driveable after the accident? I'm assuming not otherwse she probably would have kept going...


thanks! sorry for the novel!

 

[Ava Adore]

^thats a pretty solid theory. And no, calls that don't connect don't get recorded as they weren't completed. If they had found the cellphone, I'm sure they could have looked.

One of the tow truck drivers mentioned that the way she hit the snow bank was weird, like her car stalled. I can't find anything so far mentioning if it was usable or not. She took the keys and the airbags were deployed, so it might have been difficult.

Also, the police report stated they told fire units to BOL for her...so I'm guessing fire trucks were dispatched and she would have heard/seen that.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7_atAFvowRhNnA5N0JrSDBfbkk/view?pli=1

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[Reno]

I disagree (respectfully, of course) w. criticism of FM. That's not to say I don't think we should believe everything he says w.o question, but I think a lot of people have forgotten that FM owes us nothing. Someone wrote a great post earlier in the thread that discussed how FM has given an explanation for the 4000, he has given an explanation for the rag in the tail pipe, and that's all he needs to do (tbh he wouldn't even need to do that- he has no obligation to make any statement to the public). Whether we believe his statements or not is on us.

My thoughts on what happened to MM have gone back and forth, but I've always been pretty firm in my belief FM appears unhelpful to the public because at this point he has a pretty good idea of what happened to MM, and where she is. He was the last person to spend significant time w. MM leading up to her disappearance, and they were close. I'll never forget a statement he gave where he describes her as "slumping into her dorm" and sniffling and crying in the car. I think he knew MM wasn't in a good state of mind, hence his immediate reaction to discovering her missing. He was the one who introduced the suicide angle (going up in the mountains to die like an old squaw) he was the one doing interviews w. BR telling MM to just come back, no matter what happened, an interesting statement to make if you believe she's been abducted. Then, he does a complete 180 and comes up with his local dirtbag theory. I think all he wants is to find MM's remains, and he knows the best way to keep LE on the case is by promoting the theory that there is a local dirtbag at large who is a danger to the community- allowing focus to remain in the area, where he believes MM is.

BBM. Yes, I think a refresher timeline would help folks currently thinking about the case. Here's a detailed one: http://findmauramurray.fr.yuku.com/topic/2

I bring it up because I think an important dimension is that FM's behavior changed over time, which is similar to what stephsb touches on. Early on, FM was pretty forthcoming - the remarkable June, 2004 press conference comes to mind with VTSP/NHSP and Maitland family reps: http://www.mauramurraymissing.com/VTSPNHSPPressconference060804.html . Even more remarkable if he actually said this there (from http://www.wnd.com/2006/03/35310/):

"It does not matter why she left or if she told anybody about it. She had an accident and this presented her with a completely different set of circumstances, any other plans went out the window. I believe that my daughter would be home safe and sound right now if the police had not ignored the case until it was way too late. They would have known where she was heading if they had bothered to check the last phone call she made three hours before she left Amherst. I told the police where she was going two days after the accident but they didn’t check that either. The police failed to follow their own procedures and are now striving to prevent this from coming to light. Maura probably did get a ride with one or more of the area’s multitudinous sex offenders who law enforcement can’t catch because they waited too long to get started.”

If I understand that right and he called out the cops in public while they were standing there with him...is it any wonder the relationship between FM and the NHSP was increasingly adversarial? Imagine what the private conversations would have been like, would have gotten tense pretty quick...

 

[Ava Adore]

All I can say is that someone on this case is seemingly lying. You have one hand where the police claim Fred refused to sit down for an interview for two years, and then brought a lawyer; an interview with the detective, who I posted a few posts ago, who states Fred has not been forthcoming, and then Fred's statements to the contrary, you know? You can quote something Fred says, but then it seems like you can almost always find a quote to contradict it.

So, I'm not dismissing anything you guys feel/say about Fred, just more saying, "Hey, look, LE says he doesn't cooperate." They seem to point fingers back and forth. As mentioned earlier, he stated on the Montel show that the police could have just driven up the road and found Maura. But the reports said they did have a BOLO out on her. I don't know. I really don't.

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[Ava Adore]

But yeah....

 

[dogperson]

I can't fault the police for not immediately suspecting foul play or for not thinking of Maura as a missing person. She was an adult. The damage to the car did not suggest she suffered a serious injury, plus the bus driver talked to her and she was apparently coherent and not confused. Since wine was spilled in the car, the police probably assumed they were dealing with a case of someone who fled the scene because they had been drinking and didn't want to be charged with DUI. I can understand a parent wishing the police had been more aggressive sooner in their search for Maura, but at the time there was no reason for police to believe she was in danger.

 

[Reno]

Apologies in advance.. Some of my writing is very direct and comes across like I'm mad, but I'm not. (modsnip)

Several things.

[SNIPPED]

I think people find it odd that Fred had lawyers present when he was interviewed, because it could give the appearance of some sort of guilt. However if there's an adversarial relationship between Fred and LE it makes sense for Fred to have a Lawyer (s) present because it protects his rights, but more importantly LE is going to talk to a Lawyer (who knows the law) differently than someone who doesn't know the law. Also, they would know the questions to ask, as well as, what Fred is entitled to.

The fact he had to sue to try and get information would suggest to me that he's looking for answers and it also gives an inference what his relationship with LE is like.

They don't release information. How do we know they have information to release when Fred had to sue for information? Why doesn't LE release information? If Fred did release information would people believe him?

[SNIPPED]

BBM. I agree with all that thinking, and pulled out some pieces - I saw it after I posted my last, but my quotes and links wind up amplifying Ricochet's viewpoint.

I have some pure speculation on the lawyer angle I quoted from Ricochet's post - just a plausible supplement for why FM would show up with lawyers, in addition to what Ricochet said about the inference of apparent disintegration of the relationship between family and police. FM was obviously consulting with lawyers during that period (Summer, Fall 2006) - interview appears to be right around the time he sued the NHSP, which makes me wonder if they were coupled events.

So, lawyers are also negotiators and would put FM in a far better position to steer a kind of quid pro quo dynamic out of a police interview. E.g. "My client has told you all he knows about his daughter's disappearance and we ask that you share more information about the LE investigation." Worth keeping in mind, his lawyers might have led the way in suggesting they attend. Not that FM couldn't have rejected the idea, but most lawyers working with a client on a issue like this - that involves law enforcement - would want to be connected to as many major events surrounding that representation as possible, especially square in the legal domain like a police interview.

 

[Reno]

It's most likely already been done - but has anyone tried to map/calculate based on temperature, possible injuries, etc (Basically all variables of that night) how far she could have gotten on foot?
That would make a search for her remains easier.
If you recall Mariam Makhniashvili (Toronto, Ontario) wasn't found for two and a half almost three years. The original grid search came close to where she was but not quite. Furthermore she was found just off of a busy golf course in downtown Toronto.

I don't know about injuries, because you would need the injury host for a real good assessment of that. There's some circumstantial evidence of physical condition from eyewitness statements like BA's that she wasn't bleeding and physical evidence like the crack in the windshield and the liquid / splatter in the vehicle, which you could use to develop theories on. But weather conditions? That's definitely been checked and reported - even on these WS threads I believe, e.g. Feb. 2004 temps and weather patterns, sunset and even snow cover and state of the Amoonoosuc River that year.

 

[Caffeine]

Looking at the crash and the events surrounding it, the police response was a bit lackluster - she simply vanished after a single car crash that was likely alcohol related. No one knew exactly where she was going nor did anyone come forward and admit they were meeting or traveling with her.

However, in retrospect they were probably just as puzzled as us. There's a lot of directions to take investigating this one.

One thing that gets me was Fred's statement to the effect of if the police simply went further up the road they would have found her, but they didn't.

I'm not entirely sure if that means police simply failed to explore that direction, maybe he felt Forcier's sighting was correct, perhaps he thought she ran into the dirtbag after briefly walking in that direction...maybe police shared information with him that wasn't made public. Or all of the above.

Maybe I'm reading into it too much but that statement always struck me...it seems like perhaps Fred may know a bit more than meets the eye, whether its from the police, hearsay or something else...

 

[Ava Adore]

BBM. I agree with all that thinking, and pulled out some pieces - I saw it after I posted my last, but my quotes and links wind up amplifying Ricochet's viewpoint.

I have some pure speculation on the lawyer angle I quoted from Ricochet's post - just a plausible supplement for why FM would show up with lawyers, in addition to what Ricochet said about the inference of apparent disintegration of the relationship between family and police. FM was obviously consulting with lawyers during that period (Summer, Fall 2006) - interview appears to be right around the time he sued the NHSP, which makes me wonder if they were coupled events.

So, lawyers are also negotiators and would put FM in a far better position to steer a kind of quid pro quo dynamic out of a police interview. E.g. "My client has told you all he knows about his daughter's disappearance and we ask that you share more information about the LE investigation." Worth keeping in mind, his lawyers might have led the way in suggesting they attend. Not that FM couldn't have rejected the idea, but most lawyers working with a client on a issue like this - that involves law enforcement - would want to be connected to as many major events surrounding that representation as possible, especially square in the legal domain like a police interview.

Excellent points, both you and ricochet.

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[Ava Adore]

Looking at the crash and the events surrounding it, the police response was a bit lackluster - she simply vanished after a single car crash that was likely alcohol related. No one knew exactly where she was going nor did anyone come forward and admit they were meeting or traveling with her.

However, in retrospect they were probably just as puzzled as us. There's a lot of directions to take investigating this one.

One thing that gets me was Fred's statement to the effect of if the police simply went further up the road they would have found her, but they didn't.

I'm not entirely sure if that means police simply failed to explore that direction, maybe he felt Forcier's sighting was correct, perhaps he thought she ran into the dirtbag after briefly walking in that direction...maybe police shared information with him that wasn't made public. Or all of the above.

Maybe I'm reading into it too much but that statement always struck me...it seems like perhaps Fred may know a bit more than meets the eye, whether its from the police, hearsay or something else...

I wonder what Fred thought about the whole incident with the former policeman James Conrad stating the police knew where her body was.

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[TessDeco]

Looking at the crash and the events surrounding it, the police response was a bit lackluster - she simply vanished after a single car crash that was likely alcohol related. No one knew exactly where she was going nor did anyone come forward and admit they were meeting or traveling with her.

However, in retrospect they were probably just as puzzled as us. There's a lot of directions to take investigating this one.

One thing that gets me was Fred's statement to the effect of if the police simply went further up the road they would have found her, but they didn't.

I'm not entirely sure if that means police simply failed to explore that direction, maybe he felt Forcier's sighting was correct, perhaps he thought she ran into the dirtbag after briefly walking in that direction...maybe police shared information with him that wasn't made public. Or all of the above.

Maybe I'm reading into it too much but that statement always struck me...it seems like perhaps Fred may know a bit more than meets the eye, whether its from the police, hearsay or something else...

It sounds like Fred is just frustrated that LE didn't really bother to search the area the night of Maura's crash. Maybe Fred assumes Maura took off running down the road that night and if LE had just search the road in both directions that night, they may have discovered Maura on foot? IDK I'm just guessing too and you may be right about Fred hearing something that was said by one of the locals.

 

[Reno]

It sounds like Fred is just frustrated that LE didn't really bother to search the area the night of Maura's crash. Maybe Fred assumes Maura took off running down the road that night and if LE had just search the road in both directions that night, they may have discovered Maura on foot? IDK I'm just guessing too and you may be right about Fred hearing something that was said by one of the locals.

Right. I thought it was pretty well known, so correct me if I'm missing something about FM's statements on that. He alleged LE did not search east on 112, and I think that's what he was driving at in subsequent statements...the critical lost hours on Feb. 9 and 10. He also claimed Haverhill police had not "called ahead" to other police stations, alerting them MM had left an accident scene and was unaccounted for. I don't know if Haverhill PD or NHSP subsequently refuted these claims.

But here are a few facts and allegations to make a judgment on the thoroughness of the immediate search:
1. Sgt.CS got there at 7:46pm and was onto another call by 9:27 - 101 minutes. He spent a meaningful portion of that time observing the scene, talking to BA and clearing the scene with EMS. He and BA both drove around, but FM alleges CS just went west on 112, not east;
2. NHSP came on the scene (JM) during that time, but there appears to be a lack of detail about the length/scope of their participation - presumably it's in the NHSP case file FM couldn't get;
3. First formal NHSP, NHF&GS search and 'scene investigation' was Wednesday, Feb. 11. That's when the K9 made its 'findings' and the helicopter first checked for footprints. I don't know if that helo had the infrared sensor that was described as used in some of the searching.

 

[Ricochet]

the critical lost hours on Feb. 9 and 10. He also claimed Haverhill police had not "called ahead" to other police stations, alerting them MM had left an accident scene and was unaccounted for. I don't know if Haverhill PD or NHSP subsequently refuted these claims.

I believe on February 10th in the afternoon when they declared Maura a missing person other counties were notified.

But here are a few facts and allegations to make a judgment on the thoroughness of the immediate search:
1. Sgt.CS got there at 7:46pm and was onto another call by 9:27 - 101 minutes. He spent a meaningful portion of that time observing the scene, talking to BA and clearing the scene with EMS. He and BA both drove around, but FM alleges CS just went west on 112, not east;

I'd slightly disagree with this. If I go according to the dispatch log and the officer's notations. He arrived at 7:46 looked over the scene, interviewed Butch Atwood, and then commenced a search with Fire/EMS and Butch Atwood. EMS cleared the scene at 8:02 and Fire cleared the scene at 8:49 PM. Assuming the officer's notes are accurate the earliest they would've searched the roadway is 8:00 PM which would've gone until 8:49 PM at the latest. I suspect though they didn't spend 49 minutes searching the roadway. (my assumption) is approximately 8:49 LaVoie's showed up to tow the car and when they departed so did the office at 9:27 PM

2. NHSP came on the scene (JM) during that time, but there appears to be a lack of detail about the length/scope of their participation - presumably it's in the NHSP case file FM couldn't get;

Unfortunately, the officer didn't document in his notes the time NHSP showed up. So I don't know if he forgot to note that or if NHSP showed up after 9:27 PM. I don't think Fred has much respect for local police and he expected a lot more out of NHSP and I believe this is where his animosity and lack of respect for them begins to develop.

Here's a pretty decent article that goes over events and gives some insight into what Fred's expectations were out of NHSP.
http://www.mauramurraymissing.com/CaledonianRecord020909.html

I assume the police would've known that night the car was registered to Fred, but he wasn't notified until almost 24 hours later which is another contentious issue with him.

 

[Caffeine]

It sounds like Fred is just frustrated that LE didn't really bother to search the area the night of Maura's crash. Maybe Fred assumes Maura took off running down the road that night and if LE had just search the road in both directions that night, they may have discovered Maura on foot? IDK I'm just guessing too and you may be right about Fred hearing something that was said by one of the locals.

What he didn't clarify, and what makes it interesting to me, is that did he mean they would have found her alive? Or dead?

It just makes me curious if he was implying something further than the police failing to initially search that area.

 

[indridcold]

I believe Murray is most likely dead. Perhaps, she panicked initially after crashing her car, and couldn't bare dealing with it so soon after the previous accident...Her father seemed to not care all that much, but Murray may have made it a bigger deal then it needed to be.

I doubt she'd up and vanish for over a decade on her own accord, but my question then is, what happened?
Her scent was tracked through the woods behind where she had crashed her car, and it stops in the middle of the road on the other side of the woods. So, I don't think it was as simple as succumbing to the elements. Well, at least by that point. Murray was most likely picked up by someone on that road. Perhaps she hitchhiked, and my have been drunk, who knows? Maybe she knew the person, maybe not, and something happened to her from that point onward.

The whole Brianna Maitland disappearance is just an extremely intriguing red herring. Both of the disappearances has me begging for answers, it's cases like this that keep me up at night.

 

[Fireweed]

My own thought on this is that Fred Murray is a man who places achievement and success above all else. That character trait clouded his judgement when it came to him communicating with the police and the public. I definitely think he has lied or failed to share information. I think at first he lied or did not share everything because he was desperate to have Maura seem like the star he always thought she should be. At this point even after a lot of "bad" things about Maura have been made public, I think he is simply stubborn and also feels resentment towards the people (us in his mind) who dug these things up and are discussing them. I see his refusal to discuss Maura as almost a punishment.

I really want to make it clear that I do not see Fred Murray as a bad person or anything. I think he feels a huge responsibility towards Maura as her father to protect her memory. He wants her to be the track star with top grades on her way to getting married and becoming a nurse, and not the girl who was kicked out of West Point for theft, who engaged in credit card fraud and who wrecked cars after heavy drinking.

The problem is that when the narrative of this case was controlled by Fred (in first five years or so) he really boxed in the discussion of what could have happened to her, and in so doing, he may have jeopardized people picking up on clues, or following up on leads.

 

[Ava Adore]

My own thought on this is that Fred Murray is a man who places achievement and success above all else. That character trait clouded his judgement when it came to him communicating with the police and the public. I definitely think he has lied or failed to share information. I think at first he lied or did not share everything because he was desperate to have Maura seem like the star he always thought she should be. At this point even after a lot of "bad" things about Maura have been made public, I think he is simply stubborn and also feels resentment towards the people (us in his mind) who dug these things up and are discussing them. I see his refusal to discuss Maura as almost a punishment.

I really want to make it clear that I do not see Fred Murray as a bad person or anything. I think he feels a huge responsibility towards Maura as her father to protect her memory. He wants her to be the track star with top grades on her way to getting married and becoming a nurse, and not the girl who was kicked out of West Point for theft, who engaged in credit card fraud and who wrecked cars after heavy drinking.

The problem is that when the narrative of this case was controlled by Fred (in first five years or so) he really boxed in the discussion of what could have happened to her, and in so doing, he may have jeopardized people picking up on clues, or following up on leads.

That sums up how I feel. I think he loved his daughter, and of course no parent wants the world nitpicking over their child's mistakes...but in cases like these, sometimes outside people do solve or help things. We are so lucky to have such dedicated internet sleuths.

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[Ava Adore]

https://youtu.be/kM43tpDMrCg

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[Ava Adore]

The above video is a new commentary from Fred. This video has changed my perspective on many things. I think this is the Fred people have been wanting to see more of.

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