NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

[SAMS]

There’s chatter on reddit...remains just found on rte 112 in woodstock, NH while construction workers were digging. This is 20 minutes from crash site. Constant refreshing to see when local news posts an article.

oh my...thanks for sharing

 

[The Farm]

There’s chatter on reddit...remains just found on rte 112 in woodstock, NH while construction workers were digging. This is 20 minutes from crash site. Constant refreshing to see when local news posts an article.

Oh wow thank you for the heads up on this!

 

[Lamima]

I have been watching the show and still think it's not 'the best' production/narrated wise. And she does too readily believe everything told to her. They believed the sister but she struck me as 'off' and maybe it's just her unease in being put on TV....I would seem 'off' too. At any rate, the show does solidify my theory.....that she was contemplating suicide but wasn't completely sure so she left her life in a 'returnable' state. Then that second accident was a last straw. I think she ran from the scene and died, either due to her own hand or due to hypothermia. I do think her remains are near that crash site. I also do not completely rule out a bad guy harming her, someone from around there and is known to have been on or near the scene that night, is a thought. Don't think it would be a bad guy randomly driving through....just not likely since the show even showed just three cars drive by in the same timeframe as Maura's Disappearance. And it's not a well known or well traveled highway we are talking about.

Interesting about remains found....wonder if they were buried under ground????

 

[Wisdom]

Remains found were male and from an old cemetery from the sounds of it.

 

[dally_doodle]

Remains found were male and from an old cemetery from the sounds of it.

I just came in to say the same thing 😔

 

[italianangel2411]

Having not seen the most recent episode (I plan to watch either tonight or tomorrow), I'll refrain from commenting on it specifically, though I will say that I like what little I've seen so far: female voices have been missing from the public discussion of this case and I find Maggie Freleng refreshing and hope that the docuseries will, ultimately, serve as a decent primer/intro to the case and maybe provide a bit of necessary course-correction.

That said, I take issue with the sad reality that to talk about Maura Murray, one must also talk about James Renner and John Smith, the former having written the first and, to date, only book covering her story and the latter running the show online at this point as well as, apparently, officially speaking for the family of the missing. Both of them have done some research and I won't begrudge them those hours they spent trying to figure this out, but they're also very much attention-seekers and very much attached to their pet theories, neither of which is very plausible. They have inserted themselves, enmeshed themselves in this case that we can't talk about it without first acknowledging them in some way, and Oxygen of course couldn't make their documentary without including them. And so their ideas (wrongheaded, in my opinion) are amplified further, as they were on the podcast, where they've gone largely unchallenged.

Every high-profile case has one or two people like this, trotting out their theories in a high-profile fashion and, in their confidence that their solution can be the only possible answer, shut down discussion. Alan Moore, who meticulously researched Jack the Ripper for his graphic novel 'From Hell' called them gull-catchers, evoking the image of a gaggle of men with butterfly nets, chasing birds around a beach and in the process, replacing footprints representing actual clues with their own. It's an apt metaphor for the obfuscating effect these kinds of people have when they try to fit the evidence to a narrative rather than the other way around. What's worse, this could even have a chilling effect on new witnesses coming forward. If the public believes a case is solved, then they won't remain vigilant and when a person is still missing and those who knew them left without answers, this is problematic, to say the least.

Personally, I don't have a strong theory that I'm incredibly attached to in this case, but there are scenarios that I believe more likely than others. When a young woman goes missing, it's almost always because a man intervened to engineer it. To deny that this could have possibly happened and to mock it outright is to dismiss the reality that women live with every single day, whether on crowded university campuses or sparsely populated mountain towns. And to me, that's not just ignorant but actively offensive.

So what's most likely in this case? I'd say either death by misadventure (i.e., accidental drowning or a slip-and-fall incident in the isolated woodlands east of the crash site, a la Misty Upham or any number of young men who turn up dead in the water after a night of heavy drinking) or manslaughter/homicide (i.e., someone hit her with their vehicle or picked her up/let her in to their home and murdered her). Sadly, what's also most likely is that we'll never know for sure but in terms of the latter scenario, I'll say this: there ARE suspects, police HAVE interviewed them, and most of the locals believe a crime was committed and many of them have their own suspicions as to who did it.

Having not seen the most recent episode (I plan to watch either tonight or tomorrow), I'll refrain from commenting on it specifically, though I will say that I like what little I've seen so far: female voices have been missing from the public discussion of this case and I find Maggie Freleng refreshing and hope that the docuseries will, ultimately, serve as a decent primer/intro to the case and maybe provide a bit of necessary course-correction.

That said, I take issue with the sad reality that to talk about Maura Murray, one must also talk about James Renner and John Smith, the former having written the first and, to date, only book covering her story and the latter running the show online at this point as well as, apparently, officially speaking for the family of the missing. Both of them have done some research and I won't begrudge them those hours they spent trying to figure this out, but they're also very much attention-seekers and very much attached to their pet theories, neither of which is very plausible. They have inserted themselves, enmeshed themselves in this case that we can't talk about it without first acknowledging them in some way, and Oxygen of course couldn't make their documentary without including them. And so their ideas (wrongheaded, in my opinion) are amplified further, as they were on the podcast, where they've gone largely unchallenged.

Every high-profile case has one or two people like this, trotting out their theories in a high-profile fashion and, in their confidence that their solution can be the only possible answer, shut down discussion. Alan Moore, who meticulously researched Jack the Ripper for his graphic novel 'From Hell' called them gull-catchers, evoking the image of a gaggle of men with butterfly nets, chasing birds around a beach and in the process, replacing footprints representing actual clues with their own. It's an apt metaphor for the obfuscating effect these kinds of people have when they try to fit the evidence to a narrative rather than the other way around. What's worse, this could even have a chilling effect on new witnesses coming forward. If the public believes a case is solved, then they won't remain vigilant and when a person is still missing and those who knew them left without answers, this is problematic, to say the least.

Personally, I don't have a strong theory that I'm incredibly attached to in this case, but there are scenarios that I believe more likely than others. When a young woman goes missing, it's almost always because a man intervened to engineer it. To deny that this could have possibly happened and to mock it outright is to dismiss the reality that women live with every single day, whether on crowded university campuses or sparsely populated mountain towns. And to me, that's not just ignorant but actively offensive.

So what's most likely in this case? I'd say either death by misadventure (i.e., accidental drowning or a slip-and-fall incident in the isolated woodlands east of the crash site, a la Misty Upham or any number of young men who turn up dead in the water after a night of heavy drinking) or manslaughter/homicide (i.e., someone hit her with their vehicle or picked her up/let her in to their home and murdered her). Sadly, what's also most likely is that we'll never know for sure but in terms of the latter scenario, I'll say this: there ARE suspects, police HAVE interviewed them, and most of the locals believe a crime was committed and many of them have their own suspicions as to who did it.

Sadly, what's also most likely is that we'll never know for sure but in terms of the latter scenario, I'll say this: there ARE suspects, police HAVE interviewed them, and most of the locals believe a crime was committed and many of them have their own suspicions as to who did it.[/QUOTE]

Who do you believe they interviewed? You said "them"? Can you please give me more insight on this please. I also do believe the surrounding area of the crash site those people know a lot more than they saying to solve this.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

Who do you believe they interviewed? You said "them"? Can you please give me more insight on this please. I also do believe the surrounding area of the crash site those people know a lot more than they saying to solve this.

I know for sure they interviewed Claude Moulton (of the bloody knife, A-frame house, and carpet sample fame) and Rick Forcier (though his involvement was mostly as a witness). They've also stated numerous times that they're putting a case together and there are several other POIs who've been named over the years who pique my interest.

I'm tempted to put together a list, but as they can't all be guilty, I'm ethically torn on the matter.

 

[Caffeine]

I know for sure they interviewed Claude Moulton (of the bloody knife, A-frame house, and carpet sample fame) and Rick Forcier (though his involvement was mostly as a witness). They've also stated numerous times that they're putting a case together and there are several other POIs who've been named over the years who pique my interest.

I'm tempted to put together a list, but as they can't all be guilty, I'm ethically torn on the matter.

The show touched upon the Loon Mtn 3, however I've only previously heard of two brothers working there at the time.

Also, there was some talk awhile back about someone who I believe owned a construction type business and had ties to the community (DA office, I think specifically).

The problem is, if this was a crime, it was essentially a perfect crime with incredible odds and timing.

Definitely a bummer that he remains didn't pan out, but I think if she's buried anywhere I don't necessarily think we are going to just stumble upon them at this point.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

The show touched upon the Loon Mtn 3, however I've only previously heard of two brothers working there at the time.

Also, there was some talk awhile back about someone who I believe owned a construction type business and had ties to the community (DA office, I think specifically).

The problem is, if this was a crime, it was essentially a perfect crime with incredible odds and timing.

Definitely a bummer that he remains didn't pan out, but I think if she's buried anywhere I don't necessarily think we are going to just stumble upon them at this point.

Yes, the Loon Mountain brothers were POIs that the police were interested in. They were supposed to have worked the overnight shift on 2/9/04 but never showed up. The elder brother drove a red truck. No idea who the third guy is supposed to be.

The second guy you mentioned worked for his dad’s concrete company located on a road intersecting Rt 112 and was related by marriage to the Grafton Cty Attorney at the time. He would join the National Guard in late 2004 and serve overseas. Far from being (on the surface at least) a seedy local, he’s a pretty clean-cut guy who, on the night in question, was allegedly driving a company vehicle: a red truck.


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[Pettibon Junction]

Also, there's a local guy, an ex-con named Gregory Floyd who's been named on Reddit. I'm pretty sure this is the "property dispute" suspect whose neighbor James Renner spoke to. He's also named, along with Bruce McKay, in the shooting death of Liko Kenney but it's uncertain how he fits into theories of Maura Murray's disappearance apart from proximity and John Smith's ongoing grudge against local law enforcement, which he's unfortunately used Maura Murray as a conduit to channel.

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/2007/07/collision-course/

 

[italianangel2411]

http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2014/03/claude-moulton-asked-to-take-lie.html

Interesting read..I googled Claude Moulton as I have not heard his name before.
Is it the truth that Fred Maura received a knife??

 

[italianangel2411]

Did anyone notice a red truck pass by at the time she disappeared?

 

[Pettibon Junction]

Did anyone notice a red truck pass by at the time she disappeared?

Yes. The red truck was an early lead. A local out for a walk around the time of the disappearance was menaced by a red pick-up truck that, according to her, appeared to be looking for someone. She said it may have had Massachusetts plates.

 

[thenotebook]

Yes. The red truck was an early lead. A local out for a walk around the time of the disappearance was menaced by a red pick-up truck that, according to her, appeared to be looking for someone. She said it may have had Massachusetts plates.

Are you saying that she was threatened by someone in a red truck? Did they say something to her or try to grab her?

 

[Pettibon Junction]

Are you saying that she was threatened by someone in a red truck? Did they say something to her or try to grab her?

No, the truck just sort of lurked alongside her, as if the driver were sizing her up.


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[armywife210]

I don't think John Smith is using Maura to further his own "agenda" concerning the local law enforcement. I think they've done a fine job of jumping under the bus themselves. John Smith has been working with Fred Murray since the very first weeks to find Maura, to the point of putting his own boots to the snow, so to speak, right along with Fred, for months and months....every weekend they were looking. I think his lack of faith in the local law enforcement was only solidified through Maura's case.


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[Pettibon Junction]

I don't think John Smith is using Maura to further his own "agenda" concerning the local law enforcement. I think they've done a fine job of jumping under the bus themselves. John Smith has been working with Fred Murray since the very first weeks to find Maura, to the point of putting his own boots to the snow, so to speak, right along with Fred, for months and months....every weekend they were looking. I think his lack of faith in the local law enforcement was only solidified through Maura's case.


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Respectfully, that's your opinion. I've personally found Smith to be the equivalent of any number of fantasy-prone personalities I've encountered on message boards regarding true crime: paranoid, rambling, and ultimately nonsensical, chock full of supposed insider-gossip and a grand, overarching theory that he's hard-pressed to present in a logical way (despite dominating discussions with his grandiose sense of superiority)

Worse, I think he's knowingly stringing Fred and the family along. We know Fred Murray distrusts the police and thinks they haven't done enough to find his daughter. John Smith is a former police officer who was dismissed from his duties many years ago and whose family disintegrated in the process. He's using Fred's disdain for local and state law-enforcement as a way to wedge himself into the case and use it as a means to air his grievances and, as a result, there's no way to discuss this case now without having to entertain his paranoid fantasies.

The real question is, is this former carnival barker merely a con artist or does he actually believe in the snake oil he's selling? If it's the former, fine. This is America and a man's gotta make a living somehow (even if it's as a ghoul exploiting the grief of others). If it's the latter, then John Smith has the potential to be a very dangerous man. His adversarial encounter with Tim Westman on the podcast was quite telling, and that he has an open carry permit and an axe to grind is worrisome. It could well be only a matter of time before he hurts someone or himself.

 

[italianangel2411]

Thank you for the information on the red truck. I must have missed that or didn't remember that from years back.
I think someone stating a "red truck" is significant in this case. Do we have all the names of the people that owned a red truck with MA plates?
I am not sure I know who John Smith is or this baker. Please update me. Thank you.

 

[Kittycat01]

Interesting that one of the men "worked for his dad's concrete company." Might explain absence of a body. If you encased a body in cement it might make it a lot harder to find.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

Interesting that one of the men "worked for his dad's concrete company." Might explain absence of a body. If you encased a body in cement it might make it a lot harder to find.

That is very much the theory.