NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

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The point that Renner seems to miss is that proving that someone is a bad person doesn't mean they are a killer. Not all bad people are killers are truthfully not all killers are necessarily bad people- granted, the majority are but sometimes a previously good person can make one terrible decision.
 
The bigger problem I have with Renner is that his constantly-changing theories also color the "Maura did not die from the elements in the woods somewhere" proponents, which is not fair.
 
James certainly has worn his welcome on this case, and his new 'scenario' is quite a stretch, based on (mostly) unsubstantiated accusations . I'm quite skeptical, but I like to give everything some consideration. Imagine if Maura had disappeared and this 'info' on the BF came out, with none of Renner's previous speculations. I think there would have been a great deal of suspicion on a certain person. I think the alleged missing page of phone records from SR is quite interesting (if true). I'm usually most interested in what people are not saying.
 
The missing phone record is interesting, if it's true. LE wouldn't need to rely upon what someone's mother gave them though, surely they'd have been able to get the full records from the phone company early on. If what Renner is implying was on the phone records then LE would have been aware when the case was fresh enough to have easily investigation what they showed.

The reward for information that he's just offered is interesting though, he clearly has the courage of his convictions.
 
I love how the whole conversation that Kathleen Murray had with Cecil Smith gets totally glossed over. You know the one about maura being mad at her dad and taking off to the White Mountains with 5 boxes of sleeping pills and alcohol.

How did Kathleen know all of that anyway at that point (upon her first contact with police).

Nah.. Let's not look into that.

Let's focus on police conspiracies, a boyfriend who was hundreds of miles away and goofy coordinates.

And folks wonder why a case like this never gets solved.

Clint Harting
 
IMO, this is even a further stretch than the idea that she went off to Canada and started a new life. By all accounts Bill was in Oklahoma at the time and we'd need pretty substantial evidence to prove otherwise.

It seems quite evident BR is not a great guy and treated many women poorly. However there still are tons of loose ends here if JR is trying to say that he is responsible directly for Maura's disappearance.

This is quite a long shot and while I think it's very likely BR may have caused Maura some emotional stress, I don't think he has anything to do with this.

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100% agreed with all of this, and you said it way more nicely than I would have.


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I love how the whole conversation that Kathleen Murray had with Cecil Smith gets totally glossed over. You know the one about maura being mad at her dad and taking off to the White Mountains with 5 boxes of sleeping pills and alcohol.

How did Kathleen know all of that anyway at that point (upon her first contact with police).

I hadn't heard this, but I realise there's lots about the case I don't know. What's the source for this info?
 
the oxgyen series ending of episode 4 and start of episode 5 for starters. Also the 911 logs. kathleen called police upon learning maura's car had been discovered in the white mountains. And then there is also sharon rasuch's notes in which she talks about police interviewing both kathleen and billy
 
Thanks scoops, the Oxygen show isn't available in the UK yet and I know I've missed details just listening to the podcast audio
 
I love how the whole conversation that Kathleen Murray had with Cecil Smith gets totally glossed over. You know the one about maura being mad at her dad and taking off to the White Mountains with 5 boxes of sleeping pills and alcohol.

How did Kathleen know all of that anyway at that point (upon her first contact with police).

Nah.. Let's not look into that.

Let's focus on police conspiracies, a boyfriend who was hundreds of miles away and goofy coordinates.

And folks wonder why a case like this never gets solved.

Clint Harting

I appreciate your post, Clint. I think it's a bad idea to focus too much on one idea myself, but I think anything with a thread of logic deserves consideration. I remember you, I think , on the Lance/Tim podcast thinking this was likely a suicide. That and 'ran into the woods and froze or fell into the river' were my leading theories for a long time, but the on the back burner for me until someone explains away the scent trail lost in the road. I think the Oxygen series was good PR for the case, but a mixed bag overall. The one thing I feel was clarified was that the searches around the crash site were thorough and professional, and the scent trail is legit. Did she have a tandem driver? If not, did she get a ride to some lodge from a passer by and off herself the next day in the woods? Those scenarios have their improbabilities too. What's your take?
 
My take is that the oxygen series did unveil some stuff that is pretty vital. One of those nuggets was maura's condition at the time she had her second accident. If she was plastered, then I would have to consider the vulnerability of that and some sort of abduction scenario would be valid. So would succumbing to the elements as well. And suicide (the reason she went to the white mountains) is still high on my list, but if she was drunk, then it becomes less likely IMO
 
My take is that the oxygen series did unveil some stuff that is pretty vital. One of those nuggets was maura's condition at the time she had her second accident. If she was plastered, then I would have to consider the vulnerability of that and some sort of abduction scenario would be valid. So would succumbing to the elements as well. And suicide (the reason she went to the white mountains) is still high on my list, but if she was drunk, then it becomes less likely IMO

I appreciate your being reasonable based on evidence. While Maura may have been depressed, I don’t think she was acutely suicidal at the time of her disappearance. I do, however, believe she was acutely bulimic, which explains a LOT imho


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That and 'ran into the woods and froze or fell into the river' were my leading theories for a long time, but the on the back burner for me until someone explains away the scent trail lost in the road. I think the Oxygen series was good PR for the case, but a mixed bag overall. The one thing I feel was clarified was that the searches around the crash site were thorough and professional, and the scent trail is legit.

I have some thoughts that may help regarding the possibility, in my mind high probability, that she did indeed go into the woods and is somewhere up in that vast wilderness.

A couple points that are very important to remember, and I will offer some facts that support my next sentence. A scent dog, any scent dog, is a very useful tool only when the dog is able to track the scent you want tracked. HOWEVER in scenarios where the dog does not track the scent you want you can not then draw a conclusion that the scent was not present or that the dog tracked the correct scent.

Unfortunately we are not able to question the dog about what scent did they track, we just know that they tracked a scent. A scent dog is a great example of a 'positive test' tool, meaning when they track the correct scent you can say they have a 100% success rate. However they are a terrible example of a 'negative test' tool in that because they didn't track a scent, or the scent you wanted them to track, you can not then infer that there was no scent there, or that they tracked the correct scent and that scent trail ended at the intersection. You can not ask the dog, "how certain are you that the scent you tracked down the road was absolutely that of Maura Murray?"

How do you know it wasn't Cecil Smith? Or maybe one of the EMT guys? Or a deer? Or a squirrel? We don't know, and that is why a dog is not a reliable tool to prove a negative result.

A few more points regarding the dog track.

* If I recall the accident was around 8pm on February 9. The first dog track did not take place until 8AM on the 11th, so you are talking about 36 hours of time before the dog track was attempted. Also consider that the track was run ON a paved roadway where cars had been driving by for those 36 hours. The weather conditions were at or below freezing during this time frame. That is a long time and fairly poor conditions for a scent to be tracked. ***Remember this time and conditions for a point to be made later in this post***

* Also consider that there does not appear to be any certainty that Maura wore the gloves that the dog obtained the scent from. If I recall Fred had said that the gloves were new and that he could not confirm that Maura had ever worn them. Also consider that the car had been moved and it's contents had been inventoried after the accident, so there is a possibility that the gloves may have been handled by someone other than and more recently than Maura.

Now back to the dog track and subsequent search. In an ideal world we would like to be able to say that because the dog or dogs did not pick up a scent or pick up the correct scent then therefore Maura could not have walked from the scene and into the woods.

It would be nice to draw that conclusion and it seems as if many (most?) people to include the TV show with Maggie and Art have done so. In fact at the end of one of the episodes Art and Maggie did just that, they said that because the little dog (and pony) demonstration they did gave these results, then therefore every other possible result must be the same and therefore Maura did not or could not have left the scene on her own and either walked down the roadway some distance or into the woods on her own.

I believe this is a HUGE mistake and it eliminates what to me is the most obvious and most likely scenario, which is that Maura continued on the path and with the same pattern of behavior she had been demonstrating for at least the last several days if not longer.

Let's talk about the search dog demonstration they did on the TV show. Although it was very neat and convincing to most people who have never actually been on a search and rescue and have never seen a dog actually track, it was conducted in ideal circumstances with scenarios that most dogs are trained to. The dog track from the accident site to the intersection was 36 hours after the accident, it appears as if the demo with Maggie was done within an hour or so, that is a big difference.

Same thing with the cadaver dog demonstration, it looks good when demo'd however real world experience has shown that again, a dog is a great tool when they get a positive result, but when they don't get a hit it does not mean that you can infer there is no hit or track to be had. More on this later.

Now I know that much weight is given to the 2 experts who provided the search dogs and conducted the demonstration, and I am sure that they are absolute professionals and have great confidence in the skills of their dogs, however seriously do you expect they would say otherwise? They make a living off of training and selling their dogs, it does not surprise me that they would voice confidence in their dogs abilities.

Ok so let's talk reality for a minute. In the real world dogs sometimes track the right target and sometimes they don't. Now I have seen dogs do amazing things over the years, track a suspect through the woods and even through a river to get to the target, when they are on they are amazing. However I have also seen a dog run a track from an absolute known location, with an absolute known scent provider (ie: the person's hat or shirt) and run that track far from where the person actually is. It is really hit or miss, it's like sex panther cologne, 70% of the time it works every time.

You want proof? Let's go with the absolute awful case of Patrik McCarthy just 8 months later. Patrik was an 11 year old boy who walked (or ran) away from condos in Lincoln NH and was found dead 4 days later a few miles away. As awful as this case is my point is that the boy went missing sometime late afternoon from a known location. There were several dog searches attempted from that known location using a known scent article. I am not familiar with the exact details of the dog tracks but suffice to say that even when attempted within several hours of when the boy went missing, no dog was able to successfully track him despite what may be considered very favorable circumstances. If the dog had been able to track it is very likely or almost certain that Patrik would be alive today. I was a part of this case from the very beginning and the extent of the search effort to find Patrik was absolutely overwhelming, yet despite that we didn't find him until almost 5 days later and it was too late.

Also consider the case of Beth Upton, an 85 year old woman who walked away from her home in Waterville Valley on September 10 2010. Within hours a full scale search was launched to find her, though sadly she was not found until nearly 2 months later. Here is some info on this case.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...H-Beth-Upton-85-Waterville-Valley-7-Sept-2010

Again, the search for Beth began within hours of her going missing, there were multiple dog tracks attempted, and the conditions were much more favorable than was for Maura. Despite this, and also despite an absolute massive search conducted in a much smaller, more known area, they were unable to track or find Beth for almost 2 months. Again, there were search dogs used in this search, many dogs to include bloodhounds.

There were also multiple searches conducted in the days and weeks after Beth went missing using the same search dogs and cadaver dogs, however unfortunately Mrs. Upton was not found alive, nor was her body found using a cadaver dog.

Consider these 2 cases where search dogs were unable to track the missing person despite both having much better circumstances than was with Maura and the track was attempted much sooner than was with Maura, the difference between several hours in both cases and 36 hours with Maura.

In neither case was the body found using a cadaver dog.

In both cases the missing person was within a mile or 2 of where they went missing. Patrik was an 11 year frightened old boy and Beth was an elderly 85 year old woman, whereas Maura was a 21year old athlete, competitive runner, and accomplished hiker. It stands to reason that Maura was much more capable (and motivated) of putting distance between herself and the accident site than an 11 year old boy or an 85 year old woman.

Now I can think of many other cases where a dog track did not accomplish a successful result, however I provide these 2 cases because they are well known, easy to research, and were both in the same general area as where Maura went missing. In the case of Patrik McCarthy I can recall seeing the same Troopers at both searches (Maura's) as they were 8 months apart and both in Grafton County, if I recall there were several K9 units in Troop F as well as at least one bloodhound on scene. With Beth Upton I was not in the area at that time however I am familiar with the search that was conducted, it was massive.

So in summary, when people draw the conclusion that Maura could not be somewhere up in those mountains based on the dog tracks, or lack thereof, or the searches that were conducted, consider the cases I provided above. In both cases the dog was unable to track the missing person, in both cases the missing person was not found until days or months later despite being in fairly close proximity to where they went missing, and in both cases the searches that were conducted were much larger and more timely than was with Maura. Also in both cases there did not appear to be the same scenario where the person (Maura) who went missing had given significant indicators that they did not want to be found, at least not immediately, as was evidenced by her refusing help from the bus driver.

Also consider the sheer size of the area that Maura could have accessed if she wanted to put as much distance between herself and the accident site. If you look at a map, the area South of the accident site is just huge, it is also dense and very hard to access. Many people who have never been a part of a large wilderness search routinely make the comment that “Maura couldn’t be in the woods, someone would have found her body by now….” I can see how this would make sense to people who have never been in such a large, dense forest area, however that is simply not reality.

Consider that Beth Upton went missing in Waterville Valley, and area that is very confined being a valley, and she was not found (by accident) until almost 2 months after she went missing, despite the largest search I have ever seen, at least since Patrik McCarthy.

Also consider that in 1996 a Leer Jet crashed in similar, but less expansive, forest and was not found for 3 years, despite there being a massive search for the crash site. Obviously a Leer Jet and it's crash site, is much larger than a human, also much less likely to decompose. And it took 3 years to find, again by accident. Source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_New_Hampshire_Learjet_crash

So could a 21 year old distance runner, who was obviously suffering from some level of stress and emotional distress, who had just been involved in her second car accident in as many weeks, while drinking and having alcohol in the car, have gotten far enough from the crash site and into the woods to complete her “Squaw walk”? I think so.

She has alcohol, sleeping pills, stress, distress, and a flight mentality at the time of the accident. What was Fred’s first comment to Cecil Smith? The squaw walk. That my fellow sleuths is most likely what happened, in my opinion of course.
 
I have some thoughts that may help regarding the possibility, in my mind high probability, that she did indeed go into the woods and is somewhere up in that vast wilderness.

A couple points that are very important to remember, and I will offer some facts that support my next sentence. A scent dog, any scent dog, is a very useful tool only when the dog is able to track the scent you want tracked. HOWEVER in scenarios where the dog does not track the scent you want you can not then draw a conclusion that the scent was not present or that the dog tracked the correct scent.

Unfortunately we are not able to question the dog about what scent did they track, we just know that they tracked a scent. A scent dog is a great example of a 'positive test' tool, meaning when they track the correct scent you can say they have a 100% success rate. However they are a terrible example of a 'negative test' tool in that because they didn't track a scent, or the scent you wanted them to track, you can not then infer that there was no scent there, or that they tracked the correct scent and that scent trail ended at the intersection. You can not ask the dog, "how certain are you that the scent you tracked down the road was absolutely that of Maura Murray?"

How do you know it wasn't Cecil Smith? Or maybe one of the EMT guys? Or a deer? Or a squirrel? We don't know, and that is why a dog is not a reliable tool to prove a negative result.

A few more points regarding the dog track.

* If I recall the accident was around 8pm on February 9. The first dog track did not take place until 8AM on the 11th, so you are talking about 36 hours of time before the dog track was attempted. Also consider that the track was run ON a paved roadway where cars had been driving by for those 36 hours. The weather conditions were at or below freezing during this time frame. That is a long time and fairly poor conditions for a scent to be tracked. ***Remember this time and conditions for a point to be made later in this post***

* Also consider that there does not appear to be any certainty that Maura wore the gloves that the dog obtained the scent from. If I recall Fred had said that the gloves were new and that he could not confirm that Maura had ever worn them. Also consider that the car had been moved and it's contents had been inventoried after the accident, so there is a possibility that the gloves may have been handled by someone other than and more recently than Maura.

Now back to the dog track and subsequent search. In an ideal world we would like to be able to say that because the dog or dogs did not pick up a scent or pick up the correct scent then therefore Maura could not have walked from the scene and into the woods.

It would be nice to draw that conclusion and it seems as if many (most?) people to include the TV show with Maggie and Art have done so. In fact at the end of one of the episodes Art and Maggie did just that, they said that because the little dog (and pony) demonstration they did gave these results, then therefore every other possible result must be the same and therefore Maura did not or could not have left the scene on her own and either walked down the roadway some distance or into the woods on her own.

I believe this is a HUGE mistake and it eliminates what to me is the most obvious and most likely scenario, which is that Maura continued on the path and with the same pattern of behavior she had been demonstrating for at least the last several days if not longer.

Let's talk about the search dog demonstration they did on the TV show. Although it was very neat and convincing to most people who have never actually been on a search and rescue and have never seen a dog actually track, it was conducted in ideal circumstances with scenarios that most dogs are trained to. The dog track from the accident site to the intersection was 36 hours after the accident, it appears as if the demo with Maggie was done within an hour or so, that is a big difference.

Same thing with the cadaver dog demonstration, it looks good when demo'd however real world experience has shown that again, a dog is a great tool when they get a positive result, but when they don't get a hit it does not mean that you can infer there is no hit or track to be had. More on this later.

Now I know that much weight is given to the 2 experts who provided the search dogs and conducted the demonstration, and I am sure that they are absolute professionals and have great confidence in the skills of their dogs, however seriously do you expect they would say otherwise? They make a living off of training and selling their dogs, it does not surprise me that they would voice confidence in their dogs abilities.

Ok so let's talk reality for a minute. In the real world dogs sometimes track the right target and sometimes they don't. Now I have seen dogs do amazing things over the years, track a suspect through the woods and even through a river to get to the target, when they are on they are amazing. However I have also seen a dog run a track from an absolute known location, with an absolute known scent provider (ie: the person's hat or shirt) and run that track far from where the person actually is. It is really hit or miss, it's like sex panther cologne, 70% of the time it works every time.

You want proof? Let's go with the absolute awful case of Patrik McCarthy just 8 months later. Patrik was an 11 year old boy who walked (or ran) away from condos in Lincoln NH and was found dead 4 days later a few miles away. As awful as this case is my point is that the boy went missing sometime late afternoon from a known location. There were several dog searches attempted from that known location using a known scent article. I am not familiar with the exact details of the dog tracks but suffice to say that even when attempted within several hours of when the boy went missing, no dog was able to successfully track him despite what may be considered very favorable circumstances. If the dog had been able to track it is very likely or almost certain that Patrik would be alive today. I was a part of this case from the very beginning and the extent of the search effort to find Patrik was absolutely overwhelming, yet despite that we didn't find him until almost 5 days later and it was too late.

Also consider the case of Beth Upton, an 85 year old woman who walked away from her home in Waterville Valley on September 10 2010. Within hours a full scale search was launched to find her, though sadly she was not found until nearly 2 months later. Here is some info on this case.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...H-Beth-Upton-85-Waterville-Valley-7-Sept-2010

Again, the search for Beth began within hours of her going missing, there were multiple dog tracks attempted, and the conditions were much more favorable than was for Maura. Despite this, and also despite an absolute massive search conducted in a much smaller, more known area, they were unable to track or find Beth for almost 2 months. Again, there were search dogs used in this search, many dogs to include bloodhounds.

There were also multiple searches conducted in the days and weeks after Beth went missing using the same search dogs and cadaver dogs, however unfortunately Mrs. Upton was not found alive, nor was her body found using a cadaver dog.

Consider these 2 cases where search dogs were unable to track the missing person despite both having much better circumstances than was with Maura and the track was attempted much sooner than was with Maura, the difference between several hours in both cases and 36 hours with Maura.

In neither case was the body found using a cadaver dog.

In both cases the missing person was within a mile or 2 of where they went missing. Patrik was an 11 year frightened old boy and Beth was an elderly 85 year old woman, whereas Maura was a 21year old athlete, competitive runner, and accomplished hiker. It stands to reason that Maura was much more capable (and motivated) of putting distance between herself and the accident site than an 11 year old boy or an 85 year old woman.

Now I can think of many other cases where a dog track did not accomplish a successful result, however I provide these 2 cases because they are well known, easy to research, and were both in the same general area as where Maura went missing. In the case of Patrik McCarthy I can recall seeing the same Troopers at both searches (Maura's) as they were 8 months apart and both in Grafton County, if I recall there were several K9 units in Troop F as well as at least one bloodhound on scene. With Beth Upton I was not in the area at that time however I am familiar with the search that was conducted, it was massive.

So in summary, when people draw the conclusion that Maura could not be somewhere up in those mountains based on the dog tracks, or lack thereof, or the searches that were conducted, consider the cases I provided above. In both cases the dog was unable to track the missing person, in both cases the missing person was not found until days or months later despite being in fairly close proximity to where they went missing, and in both cases the searches that were conducted were much larger and more timely than was with Maura. Also in both cases there did not appear to be the same scenario where the person (Maura) who went missing had given significant indicators that they did not want to be found, at least not immediately, as was evidenced by her refusing help from the bus driver.

Also consider the sheer size of the area that Maura could have accessed if she wanted to put as much distance between herself and the accident site. If you look at a map, the area South of the accident site is just huge, it is also dense and very hard to access. Many people who have never been a part of a large wilderness search routinely make the comment that “Maura couldn’t be in the woods, someone would have found her body by now….” I can see how this would make sense to people who have never been in such a large, dense forest area, however that is simply not reality.

Consider that Beth Upton went missing in Waterville Valley, and area that is very confined being a valley, and she was not found (by accident) until almost 2 months after she went missing, despite the largest search I have ever seen, at least since Patrik McCarthy.

Also consider that in 1996 a Leer Jet crashed in similar, but less expansive, forest and was not found for 3 years, despite there being a massive search for the crash site. Obviously a Leer Jet and it's crash site, is much larger than a human, also much less likely to decompose. And it took 3 years to find, again by accident. Source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_New_Hampshire_Learjet_crash

So could a 21 year old distance runner, who was obviously suffering from some level of stress and emotional distress, who had just been involved in her second car accident in as many weeks, while drinking and having alcohol in the car, have gotten far enough from the crash site and into the woods to complete her “Squaw walk”? I think so.

She has alcohol, sleeping pills, stress, distress, and a flight mentality at the time of the accident. What was Fred’s first comment to Cecil Smith? The squaw walk. That my fellow sleuths is most likely what happened, in my opinion of course.

I totally agree!


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I think he's totally lost any objectivity he had in Maura's case.

I finished the last episode of the Oxygen series and I'm disappointed because I'm going to miss it! It's been great and I was finally able to get a friend interested in Maura so I have someone else to talk to about her.

I completely concur, he is so far out in the wasteland I don't think even he believes what he says.

The one thing that has really struck me about reading this case is how many insane theories still exist that have long ago been totally debunked. Even the Oxygen series was about 80% investigating "people have said" things that were cleared long ago by the police or even just plain common sense. I also can't believe how far this story has drifted from the initial case, and how the story has changed by people such as Renner, Smith, and the podcast people.

This is such a sad case, I could not believe how much pain Fred carries around with him and how different he looks now than he looked back then. I feel for this man so much and can't imagine his life the last 13 years, so sad.
 
I haven't read the book Renner wrote and wouldn't bother. I'm sorry in advance if this has been discussed but curiously wondered if Renner ever gave money from the book to the family (help with any type of reward regarding her disappearance) or if Oxygen offered to contribute as well; since both parties made money off this horrendous case.
I am new to this case and am sorry for the outcome or lack thereof. I hope the family is given answers sooner rather than later. I've read through a lot of threads, old and new, and have the belief that Maura would never have made a new life because of her past issues. It's quite difficult to start a new life and completely cut your family out, given they clearly were involved in one another's life. It could be different for someone who had little to no ties with their immediate family, yet that isn't the case here. Are there a lot of people in this thread that have been following from the beginning, if so, have your views varied over the years? TIA
 
I completely concur, he is so far out in the wasteland I don't think even he believes what he says.

The one thing that has really struck me about reading this case is how many insane theories still exist that have long ago been totally debunked. Even the Oxygen series was about 80% investigating "people have said" things that were cleared long ago by the police or even just plain common sense. I also can't believe how far this story has drifted from the initial case, and how the story has changed by people such as Renner, Smith, and the podcast people.

This is such a sad case, I could not believe how much pain Fred carries around with him and how different he looks now than he looked back then. I feel for this man so much and can't imagine his life the last 13 years, so sad.

Renner is little better than that wackadoo who made the videos and posted them on youtube of him with a zylephone and a lift ticket and so-forth. Every time people stop paying attention to Renner, he comes up with a new theory.
 
I have some thoughts that may help regarding the possibility, in my mind high probability, that she did indeed go into the woods and is somewhere up in that vast wilderness.

A couple points that are very important to remember, and I will offer some facts that support my next sentence. A scent dog, any scent dog, is a very useful tool only when the dog is able to track the scent you want tracked. HOWEVER in scenarios where the dog does not track the scent you want you can not then draw a conclusion that the scent was not present or that the dog tracked the correct scent.

Unfortunately we are not able to question the dog about what scent did they track, we just know that they tracked a scent. A scent dog is a great example of a 'positive test' tool, meaning when they track the correct scent you can say they have a 100% success rate. However they are a terrible example of a 'negative test' tool in that because they didn't track a scent, or the scent you wanted them to track, you can not then infer that there was no scent there, or that they tracked the correct scent and that scent trail ended at the intersection. You can not ask the dog, "how certain are you that the scent you tracked down the road was absolutely that of Maura Murray?"

How do you know it wasn't Cecil Smith? Or maybe one of the EMT guys? Or a deer? Or a squirrel? We don't know, and that is why a dog is not a reliable tool to prove a negative result.

A few more points regarding the dog track.

* If I recall the accident was around 8pm on February 9. The first dog track did not take place until 8AM on the 11th, so you are talking about 36 hours of time before the dog track was attempted. Also consider that the track was run ON a paved roadway where cars had been driving by for those 36 hours. The weather conditions were at or below freezing during this time frame. That is a long time and fairly poor conditions for a scent to be tracked. ***Remember this time and conditions for a point to be made later in this post***

* Also consider that there does not appear to be any certainty that Maura wore the gloves that the dog obtained the scent from. If I recall Fred had said that the gloves were new and that he could not confirm that Maura had ever worn them. Also consider that the car had been moved and it's contents had been inventoried after the accident, so there is a possibility that the gloves may have been handled by someone other than and more recently than Maura.

Now back to the dog track and subsequent search. In an ideal world we would like to be able to say that because the dog or dogs did not pick up a scent or pick up the correct scent then therefore Maura could not have walked from the scene and into the woods.

It would be nice to draw that conclusion and it seems as if many (most?) people to include the TV show with Maggie and Art have done so. In fact at the end of one of the episodes Art and Maggie did just that, they said that because the little dog (and pony) demonstration they did gave these results, then therefore every other possible result must be the same and therefore Maura did not or could not have left the scene on her own and either walked down the roadway some distance or into the woods on her own.

I believe this is a HUGE mistake and it eliminates what to me is the most obvious and most likely scenario, which is that Maura continued on the path and with the same pattern of behavior she had been demonstrating for at least the last several days if not longer.

Let's talk about the search dog demonstration they did on the TV show. Although it was very neat and convincing to most people who have never actually been on a search and rescue and have never seen a dog actually track, it was conducted in ideal circumstances with scenarios that most dogs are trained to. The dog track from the accident site to the intersection was 36 hours after the accident, it appears as if the demo with Maggie was done within an hour or so, that is a big difference.

Same thing with the cadaver dog demonstration, it looks good when demo'd however real world experience has shown that again, a dog is a great tool when they get a positive result, but when they don't get a hit it does not mean that you can infer there is no hit or track to be had. More on this later.

Now I know that much weight is given to the 2 experts who provided the search dogs and conducted the demonstration, and I am sure that they are absolute professionals and have great confidence in the skills of their dogs, however seriously do you expect they would say otherwise? They make a living off of training and selling their dogs, it does not surprise me that they would voice confidence in their dogs abilities.

Ok so let's talk reality for a minute. In the real world dogs sometimes track the right target and sometimes they don't. Now I have seen dogs do amazing things over the years, track a suspect through the woods and even through a river to get to the target, when they are on they are amazing. However I have also seen a dog run a track from an absolute known location, with an absolute known scent provider (ie: the person's hat or shirt) and run that track far from where the person actually is. It is really hit or miss, it's like sex panther cologne, 70% of the time it works every time.

You want proof? Let's go with the absolute awful case of Patrik McCarthy just 8 months later. Patrik was an 11 year old boy who walked (or ran) away from condos in Lincoln NH and was found dead 4 days later a few miles away. As awful as this case is my point is that the boy went missing sometime late afternoon from a known location. There were several dog searches attempted from that known location using a known scent article. I am not familiar with the exact details of the dog tracks but suffice to say that even when attempted within several hours of when the boy went missing, no dog was able to successfully track him despite what may be considered very favorable circumstances. If the dog had been able to track it is very likely or almost certain that Patrik would be alive today. I was a part of this case from the very beginning and the extent of the search effort to find Patrik was absolutely overwhelming, yet despite that we didn't find him until almost 5 days later and it was too late.

Also consider the case of Beth Upton, an 85 year old woman who walked away from her home in Waterville Valley on September 10 2010. Within hours a full scale search was launched to find her, though sadly she was not found until nearly 2 months later. Here is some info on this case.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...H-Beth-Upton-85-Waterville-Valley-7-Sept-2010

Again, the search for Beth began within hours of her going missing, there were multiple dog tracks attempted, and the conditions were much more favorable than was for Maura. Despite this, and also despite an absolute massive search conducted in a much smaller, more known area, they were unable to track or find Beth for almost 2 months. Again, there were search dogs used in this search, many dogs to include bloodhounds.

There were also multiple searches conducted in the days and weeks after Beth went missing using the same search dogs and cadaver dogs, however unfortunately Mrs. Upton was not found alive, nor was her body found using a cadaver dog.

Consider these 2 cases where search dogs were unable to track the missing person despite both having much better circumstances than was with Maura and the track was attempted much sooner than was with Maura, the difference between several hours in both cases and 36 hours with Maura.

In neither case was the body found using a cadaver dog.

In both cases the missing person was within a mile or 2 of where they went missing. Patrik was an 11 year frightened old boy and Beth was an elderly 85 year old woman, whereas Maura was a 21year old athlete, competitive runner, and accomplished hiker. It stands to reason that Maura was much more capable (and motivated) of putting distance between herself and the accident site than an 11 year old boy or an 85 year old woman.

Now I can think of many other cases where a dog track did not accomplish a successful result, however I provide these 2 cases because they are well known, easy to research, and were both in the same general area as where Maura went missing. In the case of Patrik McCarthy I can recall seeing the same Troopers at both searches (Maura's) as they were 8 months apart and both in Grafton County, if I recall there were several K9 units in Troop F as well as at least one bloodhound on scene. With Beth Upton I was not in the area at that time however I am familiar with the search that was conducted, it was massive.

So in summary, when people draw the conclusion that Maura could not be somewhere up in those mountains based on the dog tracks, or lack thereof, or the searches that were conducted, consider the cases I provided above. In both cases the dog was unable to track the missing person, in both cases the missing person was not found until days or months later despite being in fairly close proximity to where they went missing, and in both cases the searches that were conducted were much larger and more timely than was with Maura. Also in both cases there did not appear to be the same scenario where the person (Maura) who went missing had given significant indicators that they did not want to be found, at least not immediately, as was evidenced by her refusing help from the bus driver.

Also consider the sheer size of the area that Maura could have accessed if she wanted to put as much distance between herself and the accident site. If you look at a map, the area South of the accident site is just huge, it is also dense and very hard to access. Many people who have never been a part of a large wilderness search routinely make the comment that “Maura couldn’t be in the woods, someone would have found her body by now….” I can see how this would make sense to people who have never been in such a large, dense forest area, however that is simply not reality.

Consider that Beth Upton went missing in Waterville Valley, and area that is very confined being a valley, and she was not found (by accident) until almost 2 months after she went missing, despite the largest search I have ever seen, at least since Patrik McCarthy.

Also consider that in 1996 a Leer Jet crashed in similar, but less expansive, forest and was not found for 3 years, despite there being a massive search for the crash site. Obviously a Leer Jet and it's crash site, is much larger than a human, also much less likely to decompose. And it took 3 years to find, again by accident. Source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_New_Hampshire_Learjet_crash

So could a 21 year old distance runner, who was obviously suffering from some level of stress and emotional distress, who had just been involved in her second car accident in as many weeks, while drinking and having alcohol in the car, have gotten far enough from the crash site and into the woods to complete her “Squaw walk”? I think so.

She has alcohol, sleeping pills, stress, distress, and a flight mentality at the time of the accident. What was Fred’s first comment to Cecil Smith? The squaw walk. That my fellow sleuths is most likely what happened, in my opinion of course.

There would have been footprints in the snow. This makes me believe she stayed on the road. The question is for how long?
 
I haven't read the book Renner wrote and wouldn't bother. I'm sorry in advance if this has been discussed but curiously wondered if Renner ever gave money from the book to the family (help with any type of reward regarding her disappearance) or if Oxygen offered to contribute as well; since both parties made money off this horrendous case.
I am new to this case and am sorry for the outcome or lack thereof. I hope the family is given answers sooner rather than later. I've read through a lot of threads, old and new, and have the belief that Maura would never have made a new life because of her past issues. It's quite difficult to start a new life and completely cut your family out, given they clearly were involved in one another's life. It could be different for someone who had little to no ties with their immediate family, yet that isn't the case here. Are there a lot of people in this thread that have been following from the beginning, if so, have your views varied over the years? TIA

I don't know if Oxygen donated any money to the family or paid them for their appearances but...

The Maura Murray Case is being Reexamined

They shared the results with the New Hampshire State Police. Chuck West of the New Hampshire’s Cold Case Unit told them that because the sample from the wood chips is so degraded, it would be impossible for them to identify if it was Maura’s blood. But, West told them that they are going to re-examine the case. Police have already established three task forces.

“They’re going back and re-interviewing everybody,” Freleng said.

“They’re going back to the very beginning, looking at all the forensics, re-examining everything from day one on,” Roderick said.
 
I don't know if Oxygen donated any money to the family or paid them for their appearances but...

The Maura Murray Case is being Reexamined

That does not seem to be accurate, or at least is being disputed by the NHAG.

Source: https://www.caledonianrecord.com/us...cle_af43f5b2-791c-5e98-9f44-58187ede59bf.html

I knew that as soon as Maggie said that "The case has been re-opened" there would be some push back from the AG's office. Most NH cops know that a case like this is never 'closed', and therefore it does not need to be 're-opened'. It has also been pretty public knowledge that when the AG formed the cold case unit this was one of the cases they had on their list.



NHAG:TV Channel Overplays Hand In Saying Maura Murray Case Reopened

NHAG Said Case Not Being Reopened Or ReexaminedAnd There Are No New Task Forces

Robert Blechl Nov 4, 2017 Updated Nov 8, 2017Maura MurrayOn Oct. 30,

following the conclusion of its six-part series “The Disappearance of Maura Murray,” the Oxygen TV channel, in a story on its web site,stated the case was being reopened.That, though, is not accurate. And neither are some other claims in the TV channel’s story, N.H. state prosecutors said Nov. 3.“The case has not been reopened because it was never closed,” said Senior Assistant N.H. Attorney General Jeff Strelzin. “It wouldn’t be closed until wereach a resolution.

”On the evening of Feb. 9, 2004, Murray, then a 21-year-nursing student at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst, disappeared after her car crashedinto a snow bank along the curve of Route 112 in Haverhill near the Weathered Barn.In the 13 years since, the case has drawn a proliferation of Internet sleuths with no shortage of theories or conspiracies. Speculation abounds.

Did Maura get into a car with the wrong person? Was she abducted and murdered? Was she driving to the North Country to commit suicide? Did she stage the accident to run away to a new life? Did she flee into the woods and succumb to the elements?At the time of her disappearance, police said there was evidence she was having personal problems in Massachusetts and evidence she might have been drinking alcohol at the time of the crash in Haverhill.

“The Disappearance of Maura Murray” follows New York-based investigative journalist Maggie Freleng and former U.S. Marshal Art Roderick as theyinterview a host of people that included Strelzin and several former local and state police officers working for their respective departments at the time.

During the second-to-last episode, John E. Smith, of Bethlehem, an investigator working on behalf of the Murray family, gave Freleng and Roderick wood chips collected from a closet in an A-frame house close to where Murray disappeared. During the final episode, a forensic scientist said the material, which has degraded through the years, tested positive for human blood, from two different people, one of them male but undetermined if the other is female. It would be impossible to separate the two samples, she said.

According to the network’s web site story, former NHSP Trooper Chuck West, of the N.H. Cold Case Unit, said because the sample is so degraded it would be impossible to identify if it was Maura’s blood. But, according to Oxygen, West did tell Freleng and Roderick that NHSP will reexamine the case and police have already established three task forces.

Strelzin, however, said no such task forces were created. He also said what was tested has no investigative value at this point.A voice mail and email placed to West inquiring about what he might have said about the case were not returned and The Caledonian-Record was unable to obtain any email or correspondence West might have issued to anyone affiliated with Oxygen regarding a reexamination of the case or creation of new task forces.

On Monday, Paige DuBois, spokesperson for NBC Universal, parent company of Oxygen, told The Caledonian-Record that Roderick, Freleng and theTV channel decided to pass on an interview at this time.The Oxygen network’s story about the case being reopened was revised several days later when the word “reopened” was replaced with the case being“reexamined” by N.H. State Police.

Strelzin, however, said the Murray case, assigned to the N.H. Cold Case Unit after the unit’s creation in 2009, is proceeding as it has been, and with no change in investigative approach.“The case, like other cases that are cold cases, have periods of activity and periods of dormancy, and that has gone back and forth with this case,” he said. “That’s how it is with most cold cases … Luckily in New Hampshire, we have a lot of great law enforcement partners that we have been able to call on when needed. If we need additional resources and help, we get it.

”The Murray disappearance remains a criminal investigation into a missing person.“We still don’t know where she was going, why she left or what happened to her,” said Strelzin. “That’s been the focus of our investigation.”He said the Oxygen channel’s statement about the case being re-exaimined has prompted other media outlets to call him with questions.

Since the Oxygen series on Murray, which aired through October, state law enforcement has received a few calls about the case, but nothing of real substance, said Strelzin. The hope is that by having it air and by appearing in it, the series will encourage someone to come forward with anything they might know or spark someone to remember something they didn’t remember before that might prove helpful, he said.“We hope this might engender some leads and new information,” said Strelzin.
 
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