NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 4

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Tristan said:
DocWho.....How, exactly, did they say she changed?

That is such a general statement. Did she get more outgoing, more
introverted? Depressed? Wild? What?
. . .Their friendship blossomed last year when they turned 21. Then a new Murray came out - someone who could be ‘‘somewhat flirtatious'' when she drank. . .
http://ledger.southofboston.com/articles/2004/03/09/news/news02.txt

This is one reason I wish there had been more such articles and interviews. I would like to know more of just how she changed.
I think she began to drink more than she had before and this news article indicates to me that she seemed to be blossoming in parts of her personality and became a bit more outgoing with the opposite sex. That seems to me like she may have begun to question her commitment to marriage to her boyfriend. The problem is that although I suspect, I can't know all that from just this one article.

. . .After about an hour, they left, the girls dropped Fred Murray at his hotel, and headed to Alfieri's dorm.
Everyone's left wondering

At about 1 a.m., Alfieri said she was passed out from drinking. Markopoulos was still up with Murray and they were talking about going home at about 2:30 a.m. But Murray wanted to go to her father's hotel, according to Markopoulos.

‘‘I told her just to go back to her room and meet him in the morning, but she wouldn't listen,'' she said. . .
http://ledger.southofboston.com/articles/2004/03/09/news/news02.txt
 
At about 1 a.m., Alfieri said she was passed out from drinking. Markopoulos was still up with Murray and they were talking about going home at about 2:30 a.m. But Murray wanted to go to her father's hotel, according to Markopoulos.

‘‘I told her just to go back to her room and meet him in the morning, but she wouldn't listen,'' she said.
Something about that puzzles me....
WHAT IF...Maura had no intention of going to her father's hotel (@ 2:30 in the morning...come on!) I wonder if she were going to meet someone....a guy. That would make more sense to me than her going to her father's hotel room.
 
I have read and re-read the media stories quoted above.

Yes maura had secrets but I would not put too much weight on one story.

yes maura was probably a different person to some extent at UMA than at West Point but again I would not put too much weight on one story, although Joe McGee of the Patriot Ledger clearly did more basic reportorial legwork than most of the other reporters excepting Gary Lindsley of Vermont.

If she were thinking of splitting with Lt Rausch she could have done so either without leaving UMA as she did or without running away or fleeing the NH accident scene, assuming that is what she did.

And the evidence shows her repeatedly trying to contact Lt Rausch as her primary confidante and go-to guy on 2/8 and 2/9 and even on 2/11 of 2004 if you believe the phone call to his cellphone Wed am was from Maura.

The mystery to me is what else she had to tell him that did not get conveyed or unburdened during her calls or attempted contacts with him, also why she did not return his calls on Sunday eveing on 2/8/04 when she could have.

She says her in Monday afternoon email to him, "I did not feel much like talking to anyone" or something of the sort, then says she loves him "more" and calls him "stud."

Look really really hard at the CaseInformation timeline on the Maura website in the Forum section and it will leap out at you, even the 2.18pm phone call when she evidently had a brief one minute or so "I'm ok" contact with him.

She kept trying to contact Lt Rausch from Sunday morning on, yet passed up the one chance she had to really talk to him Sunday evening when she probably could have reached him. On Monday he was out on the artillery range at Ft Sill of which I have various happily vague memories from 1973.
 
czechmate7 said:
Something about that puzzles me....
WHAT IF...Maura had no intention of going to her father's hotel (@ 2:30 in the morning...come on!) I wonder if she were going to meet someone....a guy. That would make more sense to me than her going to her father's hotel room.
It is possible but I would need something to point to it in order to move it from an interesting thought to a probability in my mind.
 
hydemi said:
I have read and re-read the media stories quoted above.

Yes maura had secrets but I would not put too much weight on one story.

yes maura was probably a different person to some extent at UMA than at West Point but again I would not put too much weight on one story, although Joe McGee of the Patriot Ledger clearly did more basic reportorial legwork than most of the other reporters excepting Gary Lindsley of Vermont. . .
As I said, I wish more of those type of articles and interviews had been done. While I agree we cannot attach too much weight to one article but on the other hand we cannot just throw it out either as it is currently the only nonfamily source article I have seen that quotes interviews with those who went to school with her at the time and had a chance to see how she was everyday at school.
 
hydemi said:
. . .The mystery to me is what else she had to tell him that did not get conveyed or unburdened during her calls or attempted contacts with him, also why she did not return his calls on Sunday eveing on 2/8/04 when she could have.

She says her in Monday afternoon email to him, "I did not feel much like talking to anyone" or something of the sort, then says she loves him "more" and calls him "stud."

Look really really hard at the CaseInformation timeline on the Maura website in the Forum section and it will leap out at you, even the 2.18pm phone call when she evidently had a brief one minute or so "I'm ok" contact with him.

She kept trying to contact Lt Rausch from Sunday morning on, yet passed up the one chance she had to really talk to him Sunday evening when she probably could have reached him. On Monday he was out on the artillery range at Ft Sill of which I have various happily vague memories from 1973.
Good questions. :)
 
She kept trying to contact Lt Rausch from Sunday morning on, yet passed up the one chance she had to really talk to him Sunday evening when she probably could have reached him. On Monday he was out on the artillery range at Ft Sill of which I have various happily vague memories from 1973
Was Lt Rausch off that Sunday or was he working? If he were working Maura could have tried to call all day *knowing* that he wouldn't be available...same as Monday. Like you said, on Sunday evening when she knew he would be available she passed up her chance to talk to him.
Have you ever had to talk to someone about something that makes you comfortable or is unsettling..you want to call but you do it when you know the person is least likely to answer the phone?

Plus....another thing that's been on my mind about the phone calls. It's been said Maura could not get a hold of BF or Dad (BF didn't answer, Dad was working) to let them know she was heading out of town. What about her sister or mother? Sharon Rausch? She couldn't have called any one of them just to let them know she would be on the road and her final destination just in case the car broke down? And why would she bring expensive jewlery with her for a few days off?
 
docwho3 said:
It is possible but I would need something to point to it in order to move it from an interesting thought to a probability in my mind.
I guess what brought me to that thought was why would she to go visit her dad @ 2:30 in the morning, drunk? That just didn't make any sense to me. But then again, not much in this case does make sense :confused:
 
czechmate7 said:
I guess what brought me to that thought was why would she to go visit her dad @ 2:30 in the morning, drunk? That just didn't make any sense to me. But then again, not much in this case does make sense :confused:
You may well be right for all I know. :) I did not at all mean to shoot down your theory. I was just admitting that without a little more to go on to indicate that was really her intent I can't give it the same weight in my mind as other more substantiated theory parts. I just think we just need to dig up something more to either confirm it or rule it out. But that does not mean you can't be right either.
 
czechmate7 said:
Was Lt Rausch off that Sunday or was he working? If he were working Maura could have tried to call all day *knowing* that he wouldn't be available...same as Monday. Like you said, on Sunday evening when she knew he would be available she passed up her chance to talk to him.
Have you ever had to talk to someone about something that makes you comfortable or is unsettling..you want to call but you do it when you know the person is least likely to answer the phone?

Plus....another thing that's been on my mind about the phone calls. It's been said Maura could not get a hold of BF or Dad (BF didn't answer, Dad was working) to let them know she was heading out of town. What about her sister or mother? Sharon Rausch? She couldn't have called any one of them just to let them know she would be on the road and her final destination just in case the car broke down? And why would she bring expensive jewlery with her for a few days off?
OOOOOooooooooo I had not thought of the possibility of calling when she knew she would not get through to him. You raise some good questions.
 
That's just the point that leaps out at me-other than checking in with her Dad after he arrived home at 11pm on Sunday night, and making the various calls & emails as she left campus on Monday, Maura clearly "did not feel much like talking to anyone" and remember she refused KMayotte's offer (the student supervisor for campus security) to take her to the counseling center on the previous Thursday night.

Except for Lt Rausch, she was not calling or talking to anyone, even her Dad on Sunday--although we have no idea what was said or exchanged between them after she showed up with his damaged car at the motel after 4am in the morning. In fact I would say that biggest blank in the days leading up to Maura's disappearance is what transpired with her Dad as they were car searching. If she was his "buddy" as he says, she was evidently not feeling very buddy like with him on that weekend. Not to belabor the obvious but she must have had plenty of opportunity to tell him about whatever was bothering her, and may have intended to do so Sun am before she wrecked his car.

BTW there was evidently a room rented for her at the motel and I think Peabody has said their plan was to resume and to conclude the car shopping on Sunday before he left for Weymouth.
 
hydemi said:
BTW there was evidently a room rented for her at the motel and I think Peabody has said their plan was to resume and to conclude the car shopping on Sunday before he left for Weymouth.
I haven't heard that...so it wasn't that she was going to see her Dad at the hotel that evening/early morning...she was actually going back to a room that was rented for her...now that makes more sense!
 
czechmate7 said:
I guess what brought me to that thought was why would she to go visit her dad @ 2:30 in the morning, drunk? That just didn't make any sense to me. But then again, not much in this case does make sense :confused:
please, let's try to stick to the facts - Kate M never said Maura was drunk; the police never cited her after her accident for dui - to me that would support the fact that she was not drunk.

We know she had something to drink - we have no idea of how little or how much.


Also as to more of the investigative reports by persons other than Maura's family, I know that Kate M got in touch with the family, the boyfriend and other friends (crying quite hysterically herself) to say that the article by Joe McGee quoting her was both 1. totally misquoted and 2. taken out of context. She also would not give any furthur interviews and it is my understanding that she persuaded others to follow suit because of the negative light in which that particular article placed Maura - her friends, knowing Maura, also disagreed with the content of the article and were not willing to take any chances of more of the same.
 
hydemi said:
BTW there was evidently a room rented for her at the motel and I think Peabody has said their plan was to resume and to conclude the car shopping on Sunday before he left for Weymouth.


czechmate7 said:
I haven't heard that...so it wasn't that she was going to see her Dad at the hotel that evening/early morning...she was actually going back to a room that was rented for her...now that makes more sense!
I am certain that this information is incorrect:

Everyone that has discussed this with me (family members and friends of the family) believe that Maura was going to her father's room - she preferred a motel to her dorm. I have never heard mention of Maura's having a room rented for her.......also knowing that the Murrays are middle income, I doubt that they would have chosen to spend that unnecessary $$ - after all, most motels/hotels have two beds to a room.

I don't find that unusal that Maura would go to her Dad's motel room after an evening of socializing or partying with her friends - everytime I went to visit my children in college, they would come back to our room - even after partying and being out late; much later than Mom or Dad could stay awake.

Haven't the time today, but hydemi, perhaps since you also post at www.mauramurray.com perhaps you could ask Helena about this.
 
[QUOTE-hydemi]......their plan was to resume and to conclude the car shopping on Sunday before he left for Weymouth.[/QUOTE]
It is my understanding that aside from the hours that Maura worked that Sunday in the art gallery and some of the time that Fred spent regarding his wrecked car, that they did resume and conclude the car shopping.

The particular car was decided on, but it is also my understanding that the deal was not finalized.
 
Peabody said:
please, let's try to stick to the facts - Kate M never said Maura was drunk; the police never cited her after her accident for dui - to me that would support the fact that she was not drunk.

We know she had something to drink - we have no idea of how little or how much. . .
No offense but you don't get to control the conversation. The fact is she had been drinking and that enough drinking had taken place that at least one of her friends had passed out and Maura herself had a friend try to talk her out of driving in whatever condition she was in. It is not unreasonable to posit that she was drunk. She did in fact have a wreck when she did drive after leaving the dorm. It does not have to be a known fact to be posted about in case discussion when a news article gives enough info to make it a reasonable possibility. The post covered a possibility that was pointed to by the contents of a known and linked news article.

She went to a small dorm drinking party (which is evidently what it turned into) where at least one person drank so much that she passed out and a host asked Maura not to drive that night. It seems almost unreasonable to assume that of all those present and drinking Maura would be the only one that did not drink or only drank a little and remained sober. You have the right to feel differently of course but in my opinion you should stop trying to tell others what they "stick to" in posts.
 
Peabody said:
Also as to more of the investigative reports by persons other than Maura's family, I know that Kate M got in touch with the family, the boyfriend and other friends (crying quite hysterically herself) to say that the article by Joe McGee quoting her was both 1. totally misquoted and 2. taken out of context. She also would not give any furthur interviews and it is my understanding that she persuaded others to follow suit because of the negative light in which that particular article placed Maura - her friends, knowing Maura, also disagreed with the content of the article and were not willing to take any chances of more of the same.
For myself, I will keep in mind what you say but this info is coming second hand from you and has no way to be verified. As such it can't be given as great a weight as verifiable facts.

I also note it is possible that she had second thoughts when the article was printed and wanted to salve family feelings. Still with all this being unverified it falls nearly under the same heading as a rumor.

As to the drinking: I know Maura did not get a DUI but I have known people to skate by and have accidents when drunk who also did not get a DUI. Not getting a DUI does not tell me anything about her sobriety or lack thereof.
 
It seems that now there is some confusion as to whether Maura had a room rented for her at the same hotel her dad stayed at or was sharing his room or whether any of that is fact. I never saw any of that in a news report anywhere. Even Peabody does not seem to know for sure but says, " . . .Everyone that has discussed this with me (family members and friends of the family) believe that Maura was going to her father's room . . ."

And ". . .I have never heard mention of Maura's having a room rented for her. . ."

I think that for myself I will bear in mind that none of that has been seen in a news article and is not confirmed one way or the other. And in the news article it was not said that Maura wanted to return to the motel room for the night but implied that she wanted to meet her dad.

. . .But Murray wanted to go to her father's hotel, according to Markopoulos.
‘‘I told her just to go back to her room and meet him in the morning, but she wouldn't listen,'' she said. . .
http://ledger.southofboston.com/articles/2004/03/09/news/news02.txt


Note: I added the bolding in the quotes above.
 
Father and daughter ate dinner at the Amherst Brewing Co., a popular watering hole, that night. Then Markopoulos showed up for a drink. After about an hour, they left, the girls dropped Fred Murray at his hotel, and headed to Alfieri's dorm.

Alfieri said Markopoulos, Murray and a few friends were drinking into the late-night hours of Feb. 8
At about 1 a.m., Alfieri said she was passed out from drinking. Markopoulos was still up with Murray and they were talking about going home at about 2:30 a.m. But Murray wanted to go to her father's hotel, according to Markopoulos.

About an hour later, Murray cracked up her father's Toyota Corolla on Route 9. Alfieri found out the next week from news reports about her friend's disappearance.
Peabody~ I'm very sorry. Implying Maura was drunk was inappropriate.

However, if you look at the quotes (timeline) above, looks like Maura began drinking @ dinner (unless her friend joined them and drank alone or with Mr. Murray only) then... they went to another finds dorm where the other friend stated (not Markopoulos) that Murray and a few friends drank into the late hours.

Does anyone know what time Maura and Dad had dinner? Even if dinner was at 9:00pm that would still mean Maura drank from say 10 - 2 (4 hours). Although not drunk, drinking for that amount of time could leave someone judgmentally impared.

Timeout....someone please explain this to me.
Kate M drove an hour to meet Maura/Dad @ dinner. Maura/Kate M dropped Dad off at hotel & drove an hour back to campus to Alfie's room. Maura left Alfie room and 1 hour later got into an accident on the way back to dads hotel. Is this correct?
 
docwho3 said:
No offense but you don't get to control the conversation. The fact is she had been drinking and that enough drinking had taken place that at least one of her friends had passed out and Maura herself had a friend try to talk her out of driving in whatever condition she was in. It is not unreasonable to posit that she was drunk. She did in fact have a wreck when she did drive after leaving the dorm. It does not have to be a known fact to be posted about in case discussion when a news article gives enough info to make it a reasonable possibility. The post covered a possibility that was pointed to by the contents of a known and linked news article.

She went to a small dorm drinking party (which is evidently what it turned into) where at least one person drank so much that she passed out and a host asked Maura not to drive that night. It seems almost unreasonable to assume that of all those present and drinking Maura would be the only one that did not drink or only drank a little and remained sober. You have the right to feel differently of course but in my opinion you should stop trying to tell others what they "stick to" in posts.[/QUOTE]

Since this thread has been pretty respectful as of late, I don't see any point to these comments. If you have a problem with Peabody, as it appears you do, IMO you should take it to PM's as it detracts from the informative discussion we have been having. She is not trying to control the discussion anymore than you are. Peabody is making an effort to help stick to the facts, as we all should. Remember, it is hard to decipher someone's tone over the internet. Additionally, I have seen various posts where she was humble enough to apologize when she unintentionally offended people. I would hope other posters would have the same consideration.

Please understand that from what I have read at mauramurray.com and from what a family member of Maura's has said to me via email, many of her family members are not comfortable posting here due to the rudeness of some posters (bullying that I referred to in earlier posts) and the attacks on the Murray's/Rausch's. Peabody is clearly trying to help. I believe we all want to solve the mystery of what happened to Maura and that should remain our focus.

Doc, I noticed that you questioned the actions of the LE that responded to the seen of Maura's wreck (while on the way to the hotel after the party). You implied that just because she didn't get a ticket doesn't mean she wasn't drunk. She very well may have been drunk, however, it is unlikely that a police officer would give a free pass to a young college student if she was really drunk. Drunk driving is an unfortunate problem everywhere, but I imagine it is much more prevelent in a college town. I would think most police officers would not take a chance and let a drunk driver get off scot free. That said, there is obviously the possibilty that she may have been drunk and not ticketed. As NH LE have proved, even LE can make mistakes.
 
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