NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 6

[McSpy]

I have been MIA from WS for a while and I am very glad to see that Maura's thread is getting so much action and that there has been a lot of intelligent, interesting points of view.

One thing I have not seen mentioned in the past few pages of analysis is the rag which was stuffed in Maura's exhaust pipe. What do you guys think about that? The rag is one of the few things which make me question if this was set-up. The neighbors who were watching from their window that night thought they saw another person with Maura. The wife thinks she saw someone standing around towards the back of the car perhaps smoking. The husband disagrees and thinks the cigarrette was the glow of a cell phone.

I think the rag means nothing. Supposedly, her father told her to put it in the tailpipe to help her car's performance, because it was only operating with 3 cylinders. The other possiblilty for the rag in the tailpipe: She stuck it in the tailpipe to use as a warning flag, because her car was hanging out into the road. I don't think the rag means anything sinister. It just muddies the waters.

The Westmans only saw one person--not two. Mr. Westman saw a woman on a cell phone and Mrs. Westman thought that same person was a man smoking a cigarette. I believe Mrs. Westman was wrong, because I had made that mistake at one time. I mistook a light from a cellphone as a cigarette, so it rings true that she was wrong.

 

[McSpy]

If you use Google Street View, you can see that Maura's accident basically happened in the front yard of the witness couple. I wonder why their accounts differ so much. I read one article awhile ago that, if I remember correctly, mentioned that either Atwood or the couple saw someone open the trunk. Perhaps that is when Maura grabbed the rag, which may or may not (?) have been from a first aid kit in her trunk. Perhaps her car would not shut off and she stuffed in there in an attempt to turn it off. Maybe her father told her once to do this...

Maura's father said the rag was from the emergency kit. I believe he put the kit together for her.

 

[McSpy]

There is a recent disappearance of a 40 year old man in Haverhill, NH. His car was found abandoned on Sinclair Road. He was reported missing June 2nd. No one knows why he went up to NH, because he resided in Westminster, MA and made no mention of his plans to friends and family.

By car, Sinclair Rd. is only 7.2 miles from Maura's car accident site. Through the woods, it may only be 2.5 miles distance. I don't think their cases are connected, but I do find it odd.

 

[McSpy]

There is a recent disappearance of a 40 year old man in Haverhill, NH. His car was found abandoned on Sinclair Road. He was reported missing June 2nd. No one knows why he went up to NH, because he resided in Westminster, MA and made no mention of his plans to friends and family.

By car, Sinclair Rd. is only 7.2 miles from Maura's car accident site. Through the woods, it may only be 2.5 miles distance. I don't think their cases are connected, but I do find it odd.

 

[btf100]

I agree. They made a lot of assumptions that night. I wonder if they had put a radio call out (Be on the lookout) about the driver (Maura) being missing from the accident scene. If not, they should have done this.

These are part of the misunderstandings that makes this case so complex. EMS doesn't put out BOLO's. Police do.

As far as EMS making a determination on her injuries, that is what we do as EMS. We make and act on clinical impressions based upon mechanism of injury and examination. But, I don't believe that they made any determination in her case. They never saw her. It was the police report that had listed no injuries. I was just adding my input to the information.

The story about the EMT's losing their licenses. Great story. Of course it wasn't exactly as reported. My understanding is that they took the classes, but the tests themselves were not proctored properly. That's bad enough. Besides, those EMT's were separated by six years and actually the certification issues were with testings that occurred in Mass. and the NH EMT's involved were from southern NH. That those trainings didn't happen properly and these were full time EMT's not volunteers from what I have read. There is no difference in the training or continuing training between full time and volunteer EMT's or Firefighters. They all must maintain the same certifications in order to work. They all have the same knowledge and training and a great many full time EMT/Firefighters started as volunteers.

:twocents:

Bill

 

[I Care]

I think Forcier didn't live on that road for very long, so he may have not been familiar with the people in the area. I'm not sure of this though.

Forcier had owned the property and the mobile home on it since 17 October 2001 per Grafton County Registry of Deeds, book 2591, pg 0311.

About the windshield: I've read unverifiable accounts that the crack in the windshield was initially very small and had increased in size over time while in 'storage' in the lot at NHSP Troop F.

 

[IWannaKnow]

I think the rag means nothing. Supposedly, her father told her to put it in the tailpipe to help her car's performance, because it was only operating with 3 cylinders. The other possiblilty for the rag in the tailpipe: She stuck it in the tailpipe to use as a warning flag, because her car was hanging out into the road. I don't think the rag means anything sinister. It just muddies the waters.

The Westmans only saw one person--not two. Mr. Westman saw a woman on a cell phone and Mrs. Westman thought that same person was a man smoking a cigarette. I believe Mrs. Westman was wrong, because I had made that mistake at one time. I mistook a light from a cellphone as a cigarette, so it rings true that she was wrong.

McSpy - I've read that too, although I cannot remember where, but I believe it was one of the Whitman/Hanson articles. I too have driven this road trying to piece together what happened to Maura. If you take into consideration that the original crash happened further down from where the memorial is placed, the 100 yds makes much more sense. Plus, where her car was found by the troopers is screened from view of the two nearest houses by tall trees and brush...verified by me own two eyes :twocents: And IIRC, there was one street light at the corner of Bradley Hill Rd which illuminated the yard for BA and girlfriend to park their buses, although Maura's car would have been in the dark, further down the road on the opposite side, found opposite the cleared area, not at the trees on the corner (which she did not strike, BTW...) where the barn is.

ETA - these videos by silkyboxerz are great:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_I8e07jpJ4&feature=related

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I guess I am unsure what the purpose of swabbing the windshield would be for. The emergency workers on scene can tell if it was a head impact or not. Hair, blood, flesh is evidence of an impact. Unless you were not sure it was Maura and you are hoping that that impact would allow DNA to prove if it was her or not in the car why would you need to swab the windshield? It is really unnecessary.

Bill

There have been debates over whether it was Maura in the car at all, including whether there was an earlier accident and the one where the car was left was staged. I'm not of that view, myself, but DNA could resolve that question.

 

[btf100]

There have been debates over whether it was Maura in the car at all, including whether there was an earlier accident and the one where the car was left was staged. I'm not of that view, myself, but DNA could resolve that question.

For me it is a question that doesn't exist. I have always maintained that the female shown to be purchasing liquor on video and the person of Maura's height and general description seen next to Maura's car and who was driving Maura's car and fleeing from the crash was Maura. I understand that others might have a different opinion. But considering that this is the logical and least convoluted theory of how Maura's car arrived in NH, I consider that the burden of proof for those that want to create a convoluted scenario with her being abducted in MA or driving the car up with someone stalking or trying to help ditch the car lies with them. Not me. The simplest way to fully explain how Maura's car wound up on that road with no untidy loose ends, is that Maura drove it there.

In my opinion, (with a good basis in scientific theory) whenever you try to deviate from the simplest explanation as to how something happened. There must be a compelling reason that the more complex theory should be used instead of the simplest theory, if the simplest theory fully explains the problem. This is often referred to as Occams razor. Simplified but relatively accurate. I am sure most already know this principle. :twocents:

If the problem we are trying to solve is how Maura's car got to NH. Maura driving the car there, fully explains that problem. The fact that there was video of her along the route (liquor store video), and a witness who described her, searches of the area on her computer, is just more evidence.

Bill

 

[NHwoodsman]

I agree. They made a lot of assumptions that night. I wonder if they had put a radio call out (Be on the lookout) about the driver (Maura) being missing from the accident scene. If not, they should have done this.

Yes they did, but initially some of her description was in error I believe. Sadly there really isn't that many LEO's for such a large area and someone could easily avoid detection or not have LE cross path's with them at all. Just so darn vast and remote and with bad weather I think LE and fire/rescue had all they could handle as far as calls. Another big mistake was not having the phone call to Bill Rausch's phone forensically tested, from what I read the Haverhill PD listened to it and said it was just static, but then again this is forum info.

 

[NHwoodsman]

I agree. They made a lot of assumptions that night. I wonder if they had put a radio call out (Be on the lookout) about the driver (Maura) being missing from the accident scene. If not, they should have done this.

Yes they did, but initially some of her description was in error I believe. Sadly there really isn't that many LEO's for such a large area and someone could easily avoid detection or not have LE cross path's with them at all. Just so darn vast and remote and with bad weather I think LE and fire/rescue had all they could handle as far as calls. Another big mistake was not having the phone call to Bill Rausch's phone forensically tested, from what I read the Haverhill PD listened to it and said it was just static, but then again this is forum info.

 

[NHwoodsman]

These are part of the misunderstandings that makes this case so complex. EMS doesn't put out BOLO's. Police do.

As far as EMS making a determination on her injuries, that is what we do as EMS. We make and act on clinical impressions based upon mechanism of injury and examination. But, I don't believe that they made any determination in her case. They never saw her. It was the police report that had listed no injuries. I was just adding my input to the information.

The story about the EMT's losing their licenses. Great story. Of course it wasn't exactly as reported. My understanding is that they took the classes, but the tests themselves were not proctored properly. That's bad enough. Besides, those EMT's were separated by six years and actually the certification issues were with testings that occurred in Mass. and the NH EMT's involved were from southern NH. That those trainings didn't happen properly and these were full time EMT's not volunteers from what I have read. There is no difference in the training or continuing training between full time and volunteer EMT's or Firefighters. They all must maintain the same certifications in order to work. They all have the same knowledge and training and a great many full time EMT/Firefighters started as volunteers.

:twocents:

Bill

I don't believe any northern NH EMT's were involved so this group in Haverhill wouldn't have been involved in this mess. The only problem I see is when an EMT or anyone makes a judgment call at an accident scene its just that, a judgment call on experience and the person physical and mental status and not all head injuries or people are or react the same and it doesn't get called right 100% of the time.

Only a hospital has the equipment to absolutely tell what is going on internally. There are cases of a delayed reaction with little to no external sign on both physical and mental evaluation. I am from the school of if someone has hit a windshield hard enough to crack it they should be seen in an ER and thoroughly evaluated. But we don't know if Maura hit her head, though looking at the windshield it seems if something else hit it, that item would have to have either hit Maura or gone damn close!

For me head injuries can be too evasive and masked for a short period of time to take any chances with, as can some internal injuries. Sadly none of this debate will or can do Maura any good at this point and time, and as time passes hope of any resolution to her mystery fades. This reminds of the series "the first 48" you have a small window of time and after that the chances of solving a crime or disappearance's like Maura's are greatly reduced.

 

[NHwoodsman]

McSpy - I've read that too, although I cannot remember where, but I believe it was one of the Whitman/Hanson articles. I too have driven this road trying to piece together what happened to Maura. If you take into consideration that the original crash happened further down from where the memorial is placed, the 100 yds makes much more sense. Plus, where her car was found by the troopers is screened from view of the two nearest houses by tall trees and brush...verified by me own two eyes :twocents: And IIRC, there was one street light at the corner of Bradley Hill Rd which illuminated the yard for BA and girlfriend to park their buses, although Maura's car would have been in the dark, further down the road on the opposite side, found opposite the cleared area, not at the trees on the corner (which she did not strike, BTW...) where the barn is.

ETA - these videos by silkyboxerz are great:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_I8e07jpJ4&feature=related

I too read that the actual accident was supposed to be further down the road from the poster and ribbon tree.

 

[NHwoodsman]

For me it is a question that doesn't exist. I have always maintained that the female shown to be purchasing liquor on video and the person of Maura's height and general description seen next to Maura's car and who was driving Maura's car and fleeing from the crash was Maura. I understand that others might have a different opinion. But considering that this is the logical and least convoluted theory of how Maura's car arrived in NH, I consider that the burden of proof for those that want to create a convoluted scenario with her being abducted in MA or driving the car up with someone stalking or trying to help ditch the car lies with them. Not me. The simplest way to fully explain how Maura's car wound up on that road with no untidy loose ends, is that Maura drove it there.

In my opinion, (with a good basis in scientific theory) whenever you try to deviate from the simplest explanation as to how something happened. There must be a compelling reason that the more complex theory should be used instead of the simplest theory, if the simplest theory fully explains the problem. This is often referred to as Occams razor. Simplified but relatively accurate. I am sure most already know this principle. :twocents:

If the problem we are trying to solve is how Maura's car got to NH. Maura driving the car there, fully explains that problem. The fact that there was video of her along the route (liquor store video), and a witness who described her, searches of the area on her computer, is just more evidence.

Bill

I absolutely agree also that the girl was Maura, I think that Mrs.Westman's statement about seeing a man and then somewhere reading supposedly SBD wasn't sure at first it was Maura because he was shown a pic of her with her hair up caused confusion and doubt for some. But as you pointed out the video tells the story and for someone to follow her car to the accident scene to pickup an imposter and remain undetected doesn't seem likely. Also what's the motive? I don't see Maura orchestrating this kind of scenario, I always felt her original intend was to take a short hiatus, but the second accident may have totally changed her already seemingly fragile or confused mental state.

 

[Varvaros]

Yes, I agree, Woodsman. The last crash was likely the proverbial straw which broke the camel's back, sending her off into the night a reckless, confused, possibly suicidal woman. IMO she's out there in the woods somewhere -- just hasn't been found yet. Where would you propose they look, Woodsman? Your name indicates you may have knowledge in that area. Maybe we could pass your info along to Fred Murray.

 

[Turnadot]

Yes, I agree, Woodsman. The last crash was likely the proverbial straw which broke the camel's back, sending her off into the night a reckless, confused, possibly suicidal woman. IMO she's out there in the woods somewhere -- just hasn't been found yet. Where would you propose they look, Woodsman? Your name indicates you may have knowledge in that area. Maybe we could pass your info along to Fred Murray.

BBM

This is pretty much what I think happened, too.

I feel so bad for her father. My heart twists every time I see him talk about her.

 

[NHwoodsman]

Yes, I agree, Woodsman. The last crash was likely the proverbial straw which broke the camel's back, sending her off into the night a reckless, confused, possibly suicidal woman. IMO she's out there in the woods somewhere -- just hasn't been found yet. Where would you propose they look, Woodsman? Your name indicates you may have knowledge in that area. Maybe we could pass your info along to Fred Murray.

The task of finding her remains if indeed she is in the area is one that is unimaginable. When one considers it took a year for Chandra Levy to be found just off a well used path in a DC park that is used by thousands yearly, what are the odds of someone stumbling upon any remains in the vast dense and often steep terrain where she was last seen. I think one might as well take a topo map of the area and throw a dart at it and start there, just as good a spot as any.

I would be surprised if she was very far off a road or path etc, but being a hiker she may well have not had fear of the deeper forest. Most people especially woman seem to feel more secure staying on trails for fear of getting lost, which is smart if you haven't the knowledge and technology for guidance. You would be surprised how easy it is for even a seasoned hiker or woodsman to get lost or turned around out there and she can have even unintentionally got lost and perished.

Considering it was dark when she left afoot and its very remote I would be surprised if she dared venture far into the woods, but then again depending upon her state of mind and if she survived the night. There are a few abandoned cabins and summer homes in the area and she may have made it to one to hold out a night or two. That mysterious phone call to Billy also becomes important as too how long she may have survived if she indeed was out in the woods, time can equal distance . Having driven the road a few times recently with my wife it becomes very obvious she could be just feet off the road and one would never see her, and considering its summer and I see NO ONE hiking off the road except for popular trails, well if she isn't close to a trail I don't have much hope.

The other problem is was she the person ( CW) saw running miles down the road, if so how far could Maura have gone being the athlete she is or was? The ground cover from the six years of leaves doesn't help either, neither does the hilly terrain and underbrush in places. One would need a proverbial crystal ball, I don't hold much faith in Carla Baron's story as she has pretty much been exposed as a fraud. Too bad one of the more honest and proven psychics like the ones on I believe it was psychic investigaters wasn't contacted. Even so nothing is assured with these people but some of the cases they solved were truly mind boggling. Sadly this could turn out to be a mystery for the ages, lets hope not.

 

[NHwoodsman]

Just an after thought, when you consider how many deer, bear and moose perish yearly in the woods and how seldom ANY remains are seen or found really gives one a reality check on the chances if Maura is out there she will be found. This is one of those cases that just eats at you due to the many what ifs, and that Maura seemed destined to be a benefit to society, it could have been one of our children and I think that's what really hits home.

 

[McSpy]

These are part of the misunderstandings that makes this case so complex. EMS doesn't put out BOLO's. Police do.


Bill

I KNOW that police put out BOLOs. I never mentioned EMTs. You misunderstood my post.

The first officer (police) on the scene found that Maura was not with the car. This officer and Atwood (the bus driver, who called 911) then separately searched the area west of the accident. I was just wondering, if the officer had put out a radio call BOLO on Maura, after he and Atwood did not find Maura. Supposedly, there was a state trooper on the scene briefly. I wonder, if he knew that Maura was missing from the scene and if so, did he make any attempts to find her OR did the local police tell the state trooper that they had everything under control and didn't share the fact that the driver was missing. I also wonder, if local residents could have heard about the accident on their home police radios. I heard that these radios are popular in that area. Someone with bad intentions, could have done their own search, if they knew the young woman driver (Maura) had taken off from the accident scene.

 

[McSpy]

For me it is a question that doesn't exist. I have always maintained that the female shown to be purchasing liquor on video and the person of Maura's height and general description seen next to Maura's car and who was driving Maura's car and fleeing from the crash was Maura. I understand that others might have a different opinion. But considering that this is the logical and least convoluted theory of how Maura's car arrived in NH, I consider that the burden of proof for those that want to create a convoluted scenario with her being abducted in MA or driving the car up with someone stalking or trying to help ditch the car lies with them. Not me. The simplest way to fully explain how Maura's car wound up on that road with no untidy loose ends, is that Maura drove it there.

In my opinion, (with a good basis in scientific theory) whenever you try to deviate from the simplest explanation as to how something happened. There must be a compelling reason that the more complex theory should be used instead of the simplest theory, if the simplest theory fully explains the problem. This is often referred to as Occams razor. Simplified but relatively accurate. I am sure most already know this principle. :twocents:

If the problem we are trying to solve is how Maura's car got to NH. Maura driving the car there, fully explains that problem. The fact that there was video of her along the route (liquor store video), and a witness who described her, searches of the area on her computer, is just more evidence.

Bill

I agree with this. Some of the odd evidence (rag in tailpipe, packed boxes, etc.) can be explained and ruled out. For example, Mrs. Westman believed she had seen a man smoking a cigarette in Maura's car. Mr Westman stated that Mrs. Westman was mistaken. He believed the man smoking a cigarette was actually a woman on a cell phone. After examining the car, did the police find any ashes? Did they smell smoke in the car?
I doubt it. It is very hard to smoke a cigarette and not leave a trace. So, one would conclude that Mrs. Westman's version had to be wrong.