NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 8

[Kiln Wood]

You get more flies with honey. I'm in sales for a living and one thing I've learned it's all about how you go about getting the info you want. I've gotten info that I NEVER should have gotten for the most part because I was nice. People love to talk, but not when they feel like they are being forced.

BBM

I am not in sales nor have I ever been, but I couldn't agree more about "getting the info" whether I want it or not: I am a listener (although some who know me may say I'm a talker too), I have good eye contact, and it seems I appear interested in what the person who is doing the talking has to say--whether I am or not. This has been true in my experience whether we're discussing a metropolis such as Chicago or a village in northern New England.

Thank you for reminding me of what my late mother used to say about flies and honey!

 

[scoops]

If anyone is showing some deception or making spin, it would have to be Billy Rausch.

Because if the LT. was flat lying and there was no note, Billy could easily call the police out on that since he was present when Maura's room was searched.

Instead, Billy and his mother have come out and said there was no NEW note found.

Very misleading on their part because they know exactly what the police are referring to yet they want to try and down-play it as much as possible.

This would be a reason why police hold back info from family and friends. If the family and friends don't like what they are hearing, they can twist information around and not cooperate with authorities at a time (early stages) when cooperation is essential.

 

[McSpy]

I wonder where those alcohol bottles are located? In custody of LE or did they give them to the family?

 

[scoops]

If anyone is showing some deception or making spin, it would have to be Billy Rausch.

Because if the LT. was flat lying and there was no note, Billy could easily call the police out on that since he was present when Maura's room was searched.

Instead, Billy and his mother have come out and said there was no NEW note found.

Very misleading on their part because they know exactly what the police are referring to yet they want to try and down-play it as much as possible.

This would be a reason why police hold back info from family and friends. If the family and friends don't like what they are hearing, they can twist information around and not cooperate with authorities at a time (early stages) when cooperation is essential.

And taking it one step further.

If police and investigators had it all to do over again, I bet dollars to donuts they would not allow Billy or any family member in when they searched Maura's dorm room.

At the time, they probably thought it was a great idea to have someone who knows maura well going through her room because that person could find significance in items that the investigators might not think about because that person (Billy) knows Maura well.

But when there is a note found and the police (keep the contents private) but let the public know about it yet on the other hand billy and his mother down-play it and try to dismiss the note all together ... Where does that leave investigators. They now think this billy guy must have something to hide. And from that point on, why share any information with them, if you suspect they will try and mislead you when confronted.

 

[Jane Birch]

If anyone is showing some deception or making spin, it would have to be Billy Rausch.

Because if the LT. was flat lying and there was no note, Billy could easily call the police out on that since he was present when Maura's room was searched.

Instead, Billy and his mother have come out and said there was no NEW note found.

Very misleading on their part because they know exactly what the police are referring to yet they want to try and down-play it as much as possible.

This would be a reason why police hold back info from family and friends. If the family and friends don't like what they are hearing, they can twist information around and not cooperate with authorities at a time (early stages) when cooperation is essential.

I'd have to disagree on this. Billy and Sharon have said from the get-go that there was no note to Billy from Maura, and that instead what there was, was an old note to Maura from Billy. They don't think it has any bearing whatsoever on her disappearance. So for them, there's nothing to spin.

Sharon DID call the police out on this when she read the press release/heard the press conference, and was assured that the correct information would be disseminated. No such retraction of incorrect information was ever issued (thus, the fact that we're still having to talk about this seven and a half years later). If attempting to get correct information out to the public and correcting things the police got wrong is considered "not cooperating with them" well then there's pretty much nothing else to say.

 

[flightlevel]

Wonder if they have ever done a DNA test on the coke bottle with the alchohol in it to verify it was Maura's?

 

[McSpy]

I'd have to disagree on this. Billy and Sharon have said from the get-go that there was no note to Billy from Maura, and that instead what there was, was an old note to Maura from Billy. They don't think it has any bearing whatsoever on her disappearance. So for them, there's nothing to spin.

Sharon DID call the police out on this when she read the press release/heard the press conference, and was assured that the correct information would be disseminated. No such retraction of incorrect information was ever issued (thus, the fact that we're still having to talk about this seven and a half years later). If attempting to get correct information out to the public and correcting things the police got wrong is considered "not cooperating with them" well then there's pretty much nothing else to say.

Are you friends with the family? You seem to know alot of details. Just curious.

 

[McSpy]

Wonder if they have ever done a DNA test on the coke bottle with the alchohol in it to verify it was Maura's?

Welcome Fightlevel!!

I don't know if they did a DNA test on the bottle, but I tend to doubt it. I think LE was pretty convinced it was Maura who drove that car, because of the witness (bus driver). Although, I'd like to know what happened to the bottle and if it was tossed out. I especially would like to know where the bottles of alcohol went. If LE has them, we know Maura didn't take them.

 

[Peabody]

Here is where I come down on this. Renner rightly says that things get misreported; then (and this is me speaking) those misreported statements make it to blogs and Wikipedia and that statement becomes a "Fact," even though it isn't true.

Now, the reporting that Conway did in a newspaper, under the supervision of an editor, has not been contradicted or corrected in or by a mainstream news source. In either case, we do not know who the source was, what indvidual from LE. Until Renner provides a source more specific than "Haverhill PD," this is all still in question for me. His reporting is considerably further down the road than the work done in the Whitman-Hanson reports, which have been widely circulated. Any reporter can be wrong, but I put more trust in a major investigative series than a blog written by a guy who has just started to look at the case. Meanwhile, I am going back to the police report to see if that clears up the issue.

Peabody, do you know which of these accounts of the liquor is true?

Pittsburgh girl, I KNOW for certain that the HPD TOLD the Murrays and the Rausches that the liquor was missing. I also know they never thought it logical to put glass bottles in a backpack. They do not know whih account is factual.

On another subject, while I understand accusatory and blaming remarks about Maura's family and the Rausches, I am becoming quite angry at reading them. I KNOW they have ALWAYS relayed accurately what the police told them and pointed out the particular items that they knew to be false.

Do you really believe that Fred, Billy and his mother came up with talking points to deceive the public? People should try to understand that Maura's missing is as much a mystery to her family and others who love her as it is to all of you trying to solve the mystery!

My decision to NOT CONTINUE to be an active poster is the result of being called a liar as well as the family and boyfriend being called a liar by those who speculate. Stating a theory is totally different than saying someone is lying to cover-up.

Billy Rausch once said that any of us could start with taking the few known facts and then begin to speculate. He said because we do not know what happened, there would be no end to the speculation. I agree.

I am hoping that Renner's investigation will solve Maura's missing. Perhaps some of you will believe me when I assure you that he has posted much misinformation (call it a lie if you will) on his blog.

 

[telemag]

Pittsburgh girl, I KNOW for certain that the HPD TOLD the Murrays and the Rausches that the liquor was missing. .

How do you know this?

 

[scoops]

I'd have to disagree on this. Billy and Sharon have said from the get-go that there was no note to Billy from Maura, and that instead what there was, was an old note to Maura from Billy. They don't think it has any bearing whatsoever on her disappearance. So for them, there's nothing to spin.

Sharon DID call the police out on this when she read the press release/heard the press conference, and was assured that the correct information would be disseminated. No such retraction of incorrect information was ever issued (thus, the fact that we're still having to talk about this seven and a half years later). If attempting to get correct information out to the public and correcting things the police got wrong is considered "not cooperating with them" well then there's pretty much nothing else to say.

I will admit that I am basing my info of the contents of the note from what the blogger James Renner unconvered. I have no reason to believe he was lying about what he uncovered.

If it is true. That Maura had printed out an old email from billy to her about his infidelity and laid it on top of her packed boxes in her dorm room, then there is no way around it, Billy and Sharon have provided spin.

Sharon has said from day one as you point out that there was no note from Maura to Billy. (Technically true, but clearly not the whole story because the police did indeed find a note).

The same scenario would be that if I went into a store and stole a candy bar and got busted for it.

The newspaper the next day says I was busted for stealing a pack of gum.

I come on record defending myself the following day by saying, the newspaper was totally wrong, I never stole a pack of gum from that store and leave it at that. I would be right, but the whole point of me stealing would then be lost in the scenario.

The Rausch'es didn't like the contents of the note and didn't want them to be discussed, so they minimalized it as much as possible. You can't do that in a missing person investigation. You have to look at everything you uncover very openly and very thoroughly and try to link it or dismiss it to how it relates to someone going missing. They have always painted a picture that Maura's relationship with Billy was going perfectly and they were gearing up for marriage.

Yet information being discovered seven years later is painting a much different picture about their relationship. Someone is purposefully wrong, or at least is being purposefully misleading.

 

[telemag]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peabody
Pittsburgh girl, I KNOW for certain that the HPD TOLD the Murrays and the Rausches that the liquor was missing. .

"How do you know this?"


Forget I asked this question as it really doesn't matter anyway how you know. Maybe you heard it directly from one of the family, but what you are saying is that you personally were never told by HPD, but got second hand info. I totally believe you it's just that things get diluted along the way.

 

[Jane Birch]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peabody
Pittsburgh girl, I KNOW for certain that the HPD TOLD the Murrays and the Rausches that the liquor was missing. .

"How do you know this?"


Forget I asked this question as it really doesn't matter anyway how you know. Maybe you heard it directly from one of the family, but what you are saying is that you personally were never told by HPD, but got second hand info. I totally believe you it's just that things get diluted along the way.

That's not what Peabody is saying. You're inferring an awful lot from both her (his?) (sorry!) post and from a couple of my recent ones (as well as the whole note discussion). Peabody may well know for a fact that this information was given directly to the family by HPD because Peabody may have been there, for all we know. That would be first-hand information. (not to mention, again it assumes that the family has something to cover up or lie about or craft a press release or public image or talking point. But that's beside the point I'm making here.)

I do agree that things get diluted along the way. It's one of the reasons we're still here, debating these simplest of things.

Speaking of which, if you read closely, you'll notice that I've said (more than once) that Sharon and Billy Rausch both clearly told the police that not only was there no suicide note from Maura, there was an old note from Billy to Maura. That's different from what you're saying. Also, I've not heard any indication of WHEN Maura printed out this email. You keep saying that she printed it out and put it on top of her belongings, as if on the day she disappeared, she packed up her stuff, stacked it neatly on her bed, said to herself, "Oh! I have to print out that old email from Billy where we talked about cheating, so I can put it on top of my stuff so he'll know why I went to NH if I happen to disappear (or since I'm planning to disappear, whichever way you want it for these purposes) and then I'll go to the bank and the liquor store."

Sure, that may have happened, but it also may well be (and in my personal opinion is a hell of a lot more likely) that this email printout was floating around her belongings, having been printed out at some point between when he emailed it and when she disappeared--for any number of reasons, related to or unrelated to her disappearance--and it's what ended up on top of the pile just by random chance. It may have fluttered loose while she was packing and she just scooped it up off the floor. She may have meant to pitch it or recycle it and forgot. She may have been going to use it as scrap paper for writing down directions. Nobody knows.

Ok, that was a long-winded way of saying nobody--including Renner--has said when this email was actuall printed out. That might give us some indication of its importance. (and for those of you who would then ask why would she keep an old hurtful email like that? who knows? it's a long-distance relationship. maybe she's a sentimental letter-keeper. Maybe that's why it got printed out in the first place. Maybe she printed them all out at some point, bad OR good. Who knows?)

/ramble

 

[scoops]

once again here is the official statement from Lt. Scarinza about the note found in maura's room

"Sometime between Sunday and Monday morning, she packed up all her belongings in her dorm room, to include taking all her pictures off the walls, taking everything out of her bureaus, [and] put them all in boxes [and] left [them] on her bed," Scarinza told WCVB-TV, "[She] left a personal note to her boyfriend on top of the boxes."

At which point in this statement precisely, does the Lt. mention a suicide note.

At which point in this statement does the LT. say that Maura WROTE/TYPED a note.

Does the Lt. Say there was a note LEFT for someone? --- Yes. (Factual).

here is one of Fred Murray's early response to the statement

The possible existence of such a note also rankled Fred Murray. "This clearly suggests the traditional suicide letter --- Is this a fact or an assumption being made.

here is an interesting response from Maura's older sister Kathleen on the matter

In an interview at Laurie Murray's home in Hanson, Maura's sister Kathleen said she had consoled Maura through several difficult bouts with Billy, usually in late night phone calls. Kathleen said she was not convinced Maura was happy in the relationship. ---- SO were Maura and Billy doing so well and on the verge of marriage or is the sister wrong.

Sharon and Billy's take on the note or supposed note.

Her son arrived at Maura's dorm room with police just two days after she went missing. He said there was no recent letters to him from Maura that were found.

"There is no note," Sharon Raush said.


You be the judge.

 

[scoops]

I am also comfortable enough to say now that I believe the blogger James Renner got the alcohol information wrong.

Mari beth conway in her reporting noted missing alcohol.

And so did this person from the Caldoenian record (gary lindsley)

In addition to diamond jewelry, books, clothing and some alcohol found in the vehicle after the accident, some items were missing.

"She had a (black) backpack when she left Massachusetts," Scarinza said. "We have not been able to locate the backpack in the car or her (dorm) room. That was the pack she used at school."

Scarinza also said when Murray left the Amherst campus, she had with her a box of wine, and bottles of vodka, Kahluha and Bailey's Irish Cream.

The box of wine, of which most had been spilled, was found in the car. But some of the other bottles were not found.


Now these are two entirely different journalists who had direct contact with the authorities and I can't make the leap that they both got their information wrong and James was right.

 

[gnomony]

A lot of virtual ink being spilled over which reporter is right and which is wrong. If Renner reports that LE said to him that the all the alcohol was found, I'm willing to believe that that is what LE said to him. Is it true? Maybe. And if a different reporter writes that a different LE source said some alcohol was missing, I'm willing to believe that that is what that source said. And if the two LE sources, speaking years apart, say different things, there are a dozen possible explanations short of intentional deceit. I know every opera needs a villain, but it's possible there are no liars involved here.

 

[scoops]

A lot of virtual ink being spilled over which reporter is right and which is wrong. If Renner reports that LE said to him that the all the alcohol was found, I'm willing to believe that that is what LE said to him. Is it true? Maybe. And if a different reporter writes that a different LE source said some alcohol was missing, I'm willing to believe that that is what that source said. And if the two LE sources, speaking years apart, say different things, there are a dozen possible explanations short of intentional deceit. I know every opera needs a villain, but it's possible there are no liars involved here.

I couldn't agree more and that is why I said I believe James got the information wrong, not that he was trying to be deceitful or misleading.

From his blog, he talked about the alcohol being all accounted for.

That is likely precisely what was told to him by his sources with law enforcement, but that answer is a little vague.

All accounted for could also mean that police/investigators through their investigating have accounted for all of the alcohol Maura would've had with her on her trip through receipts etc... it doesn't neccessarily have to mean that they scooped up every single bottle of alchohol and have it in an evidence storage facility somewhere.

Maura could've very well taken the Bailey's and whatever else and yet the police still know about it and account for it because of the receipt they found,

So technically it would be accounted for.

 

[OldSteve]

snipped regarding

there is no "first 48 hours" rule with this case. The police handled the first 48 appropriately. They were not working a homicide, merely an abandoned car left by someone who left signs that they had been drinking (that kind of thing happens all the time)

The cracked windshield IMO should have gotten LE's attention to search for her as an endangered person - so no waiting 48 hours...

 

[scoops]

snipped regarding


The cracked windshield IMO should have gotten LE's attention to search for her as an endangered person - so no waiting 48 hours...

There was a cracked windshield but no signs of blood or blunt trauma and there was no waiting 48 hours to do anything, a search was done that same night.

But in a situation where the investigators deem an accident "Minor" (whether they are right or wrong) they handled the situation correctly based on it being a minor accident. They had the info for who owned the car (responsible for the car) and they did a search in the area for Maura figuring she was willfully hiding from them based on Butch Atwood's account. They also really believed she got into a car and left the scene.

Worst case, if Maura hadn't come forward to claim the car by the next day, they could hunt down the registered owner and pursue the matter that way and that sounds like what they did.

It was only after the first 24 hours had passed that this became more than a person avoiding police, but based on the info they had at the time of their initial investigation of the accident scene, I say they did things by the book based on what I have heard and read.

 

[telemag]

A lot of virtual ink being spilled over which reporter is right and which is wrong. If Renner reports that LE said to him that the all the alcohol was found, I'm willing to believe that that is what LE said to him. Is it true? Maybe. And if a different reporter writes that a different LE source said some alcohol was missing, I'm willing to believe that that is what that source said. And if the two LE sources, speaking years apart, say different things, there are a dozen possible explanations short of intentional deceit. I know every opera needs a villain, but it's possible there are no liars involved here.

I was just about to say this. Maybe after all these years the cop who looked up the info for Mr Renner misunderstood about the alcohol. Either way I am not ready to call him a liar like some are doing.