NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 9

[goldiegirl]

The "dead, drunk and naked" comment is very strange. If FM was talking like that to folks, I'm surprised that no one reported it to the authorities.

Sometimes when you have a family member in crisis you say all kinds of things, and your affect may not seem appropriate. Dynamics get very complicated when you are upset with someone but want them to be okay at the same time. I've had to call the ambulence on my addicted, suicidal family member, and I was so upset I couldn't even tell you what came out of my mouth.

 

[scoops]

The "dead, drunk and naked" comment is very strange. If FM was talking like that to folks, I'm surprised that no one reported it to the authorities.

He doesn't say dead, I was wrong about that (I was going off of memory) but here is the exact quote from Tim Carpenter (husband at the time of Kathleen) from his interview with James Renner.

Tim Carpenter -- "I remember him pointing up to the mountain and saying, 'She walked up there. We'll find her at the top. Drunk and naked.' Why naked?"


IMO, Tim doesn't understand what fred is talking about, so that is why he doesn't make a bigger deal about the statement.

It just adds to the point though that I don't believe Tim was making this up, because he doesn't even know what fred is trying to say.

Fred on the other hand, an avid hiker who has read up about people dying in dramatic ways in the mountains, I would have to believe knows all about paradoxical undressing.


So therefore, Fred's statement about his daughter being found naked and drunk at the top of a mountain (has purpose behind it).

I believe in the early days of Maura going missing, Fred truly believed that they had a small window of time in finding her still alive before she perished.

After those first few days, when hope began to disappear, I believe fred became discouraged and that just happened to coincide with his shift publically to the media in what he was saying likely happened to his daughter.

 

[goldiegirl]

He doesn't say dead, I was wrong about that (I was going off of memory) but here is the exact quote from Tim Carpenter (husband at the time of Kathleen) from his interview with James Renner.

Tim Carpenter -- "I remember him pointing up to the mountain and saying, 'She walked up there. We'll find her at the top. Drunk and naked.' Why naked?"


IMO, Tim doesn't understand what fred is talking about, so that is why he doesn't make a bigger deal about the statement.

It just adds to the point though that I don't believe Tim was making this up, because he doesn't even know what fred is trying to say.

Fred on the other hand, an avid hiker who has read up about people dying in dramatic ways in the mountains, I would have to believe knows all about paradoxical undressing.


So therefore, Fred's statement about his daughter being found naked and drunk at the top of a mountain (has purpose behind it).

I believe in the early days of Maura going missing, Fred truly believed that they had a small window of time in finding her still alive before she perished.

After those first few days, when hope began to disappear, I believe fred became discouraged and that just happened to coincide with his shift publically to the media in what he was saying likely happened to his daughter.

Agreed. I've made all kinds of off-hand remarks about being afraid of finding my family member in a ditch somewhere and so forth. At that point I'm sure he'd run every scenario through his mind, and sometimes saying those things out loud helps you to kind of accept them as a reality and prepare yourself.

 

[hannah1988]

He doesn't say dead, I was wrong about that (I was going off of memory) but here is the exact quote from Tim Carpenter (husband at the time of Kathleen) from his interview with James Renner.

Tim Carpenter -- "I remember him pointing up to the mountain and saying, 'She walked up there. We'll find her at the top. Drunk and naked.' Why naked?"


IMO, Tim doesn't understand what fred is talking about, so that is why he doesn't make a bigger deal about the statement.

It just adds to the point though that I don't believe Tim was making this up, because he doesn't even know what fred is trying to say.

Fred on the other hand, an avid hiker who has read up about people dying in dramatic ways in the mountains, I would have to believe knows all about paradoxical undressing.


So therefore, Fred's statement about his daughter being found naked and drunk at the top of a mountain (has purpose behind it).

I believe in the early days of Maura going missing, Fred truly believed that they had a small window of time in finding her still alive before she perished.

After those first few days, when hope began to disappear, I believe fred became discouraged and that just happened to coincide with his shift publically to the media in what he was saying likely happened to his daughter.

Thanks for clarifying this. I don't know why, but "drunk and naked" seems much more reasonable to me than "dead, drunk and naked".

 

[scoops]

Thanks for clarifying this. I don't know why, but "drunk and naked" seems much more reasonable to me than "dead, drunk and naked".

An assumption could be made, however, that fred also assumed dead as well as drunk and naked because paradoxical undress is one of the last things someone does (with hypothermia) right before they die.

IMO, Fred was hoping that maybe the wreck (unplanned) bought some more time for Maura as far as her plans to take her own life and that if investigators would've gone all out and pulled out all stops, they would've had time yet to intervene.

Fred's early comments to the media (if I recall) were pleas to maura to talk things out with him) they had never been pleas to a mysterious boogeyman to let his daughter go or return her unharmed.

 

[hannah1988]

An assumption could be made, however, that fred also assumed dead as well as drunk and naked because paradoxical undress is one of the last things someone does (with hypothermia) right before they die.

IMO, Fred was hoping that maybe the wreck (unplanned) bought some more time for Maura as far as her plans to take her own life and that if investigators would've gone all out and pulled out all stops, they would've had time yet to intervene.

Fred's early comments to the media (if I recall) were pleas to maura to talk things out with him) they had never been pleas to a mysterious boogeyman to let his daughter go or return her unharmed.

Hmmm. Good point. I thought of the phrase "drunk and naked" as him describing her as getting wild on the mountain by herself. As in, "Man, I was so crazy last night, I ended up on the other side of town drunk and naked."

My guess is that FM asked Maura to come home in the beginning, because he still had a lot of hope that she was just running away temporarily. After all, she was driving away from her life at Amherst, and she was obviously under a lot of emotional stress, so it seemed very possible that she had left willingly. After more and more time passed, he probably realized that she wasn't going to be found easily and that's when he started really pushing investigators and talking about other theories besides voluntary disappearnace.

 

[MadamReporter]

An assumption could be made, however, that fred also assumed dead as well as drunk and naked because paradoxical undress is one of the last things someone does (with hypothermia) right before they die.

IMO, Fred was hoping that maybe the wreck (unplanned) bought some more time for Maura as far as her plans to take her own life and that if investigators would've gone all out and pulled out all stops, they would've had time yet to intervene.

Fred's early comments to the media (if I recall) were pleas to maura to talk things out with him) they had never been pleas to a mysterious boogeyman to let his daughter go or return her unharmed.

That's an excellent point, coupled with the fact that Fred has said recently that it doesn't matter what happened in the days before the disappearance and won't answer questions about it.

 

[OldSteve]

I have to disagree (friendly though) with recent statements attributed to Fred that MM was suicidal.

No where in this more recent news story do I see/sense suicide. What I do see is suspicion -
http://www.concordmonitor.com/news/...light-gone-a-father-searches-for-his-daughter

 

[scoops]

I have to disagree (friendly though) with recent statements attributed to Fred that MM was suicidal.

No where in this more recent news story do I see/sense suicide. What I do see is suspicion -
http://www.concordmonitor.com/news/...light-gone-a-father-searches-for-his-daughter

But, I know I have my theory (that Maura took her own life).

But then there are also the facts.

Fred Murray’s call to 911 dispatch the day after his daughter went missing
911 dispatch notes---- Fred Murray called back and said officer has not gotten back to him. I told Fred Murray that officer had the message and was sure he would be calling him back. Fred stated it is urgent that officer Smith calls him. Fred had some very important information to give him. Fred asked if Officer Smith had a cell phone. I told Fred “Negative Sir.” But I will give Officer Smith another message. Fred Murray said “Please do. It is very urgent that Officer Smith calls me.”

In an interview with James Renner done in 2012
Retired Lt. Scarinza --- (Lead Investigator Maura Murray case)
Lt. Scarinza relaying the contents of that initial phone call fred made to police

"What I was told was that the first thing out of Fred's mouth was, 'She's gone to the North Country to commit suicide, to go off and die like an old squaw."

Also:

"I've said this all along: My sense is that Maura's original intent when she left Massachusetts was to come to the North Country to get away from something that was occurring in her life down there. I take into consideration the family's thought that she was coming up to kill herself. But what was the initial catalyst to make her want to do that? And what happened when she got here? My sense is that she is not still alive."



Now if anyone is trying to make the argument that the lead investigator of the case is just boldly lying about all of this, then I would have to call B.S on that.

Either there was some huge misunderstanding between fred and the police, the police are bold-faced lying or fred at some point shifted gears for some reason.

One of these scenarios has to be true and while I have my own personal theories about things, I do actually try to go off of truths that are known and I just don't blindly make things up. (not saying anyone else does, just that I don't).

 

[scoops]

But, I know I have my theory (that Maura took her own life).

But then there are also the facts.

Fred Murray’s call to 911 dispatch the day after his daughter went missing
911 dispatch notes---- Fred Murray called back and said officer has not gotten back to him. I told Fred Murray that officer had the message and was sure he would be calling him back. Fred stated it is urgent that officer Smith calls him. Fred had some very important information to give him. Fred asked if Officer Smith had a cell phone. I told Fred “Negative Sir.” But I will give Officer Smith another message. Fred Murray said “Please do. It is very urgent that Officer Smith calls me.”

In an interview with James Renner done in 2012
Retired Lt. Scarinza --- (Lead Investigator Maura Murray case)
Lt. Scarinza relaying the contents of that initial phone call fred made to police

"What I was told was that the first thing out of Fred's mouth was, 'She's gone to the North Country to commit suicide, to go off and die like an old squaw."

Also:

"I've said this all along: My sense is that Maura's original intent when she left Massachusetts was to come to the North Country to get away from something that was occurring in her life down there. I take into consideration the family's thought that she was coming up to kill herself. But what was the initial catalyst to make her want to do that? And what happened when she got here? My sense is that she is not still alive."



Now if anyone is trying to make the argument that the lead investigator of the case is just boldly lying about all of this, then I would have to call B.S on that.

Either there was some huge misunderstanding between fred and the police, the police are bold-faced lying or fred at some point shifted gears for some reason.

One of these scenarios has to be true and while I have my own personal theories about things, I do actually try to go off of truths that are known and I just don't blindly make things up. (not saying anyone else does, just that I don't).

Now also keep in mind that Fred Murray would have the best and most current insight about his daughter and her state of mind, being that he spent the entire weekend with her.

So his initial thoughts about his daughter and what she would be doing in the middle of nowhere on a school night, to me holds plenty of meaning.

What he and his family say to the media years after the fact ... not so much.

His family (right or wrong) has been mis-leading about several things to include the mysterious 10 p.m. phone call that they KNEW ALL ALONG had no bearing in causing Maura to breakdown at her job. Family had Maura's cell phone records and knew for a fact that Maura had a phone call to her boyfriend much closer to the time she had her breakdown at work, yet family has let the media run with the 10 p.m. phone call between Maura and her sister anyway, because they know there was nothing to that phone call and they had no reasonable expectation to believe that the public would ever see Maura's cell phone records to be able to bring to attention the 12:07 a.m. call that was on her phone record between her and her boyfriend.

That is called being deceptive whether or not they had good reason to be that way or not.

If family can be deceptive in one instance, they can surely be deceptive in other instances.

 

[McSpy]

I agree that there isn't solid evidence to support it, but there's also not solid evidence to rule it out (which is unfortunately the issue with most of the theories about Maura).

At one point, I started searching for other people who went missing after car accidents, and there are actually quite a few. Many of them ended up being located in water sources nearby (they ran from the scene and stumbled into a river, etc.). Many others were not found. I forget the specific cases, but I remember that a few folks acted "normal" (talking reasonably, calling friends, etc.) before they went missing. I wonder if it could take a while for the symptoms of the head injury to "kick in".

Depending on how hard their car hits an object (another car, pole, wall, etc.) they can tear an internal organ from the g-forces. Sometimes they don't realize it, but finally succumb to the loss of blood (internal bleeding). I don't think this happened to Maura, because I believe she had a low velocity accident. LE called it a minor accident.

JMO

 

[McSpy]

Now also keep in mind that Fred Murray would have the best and most current insight about his daughter and her state of mind, being that he spent the entire weekend with her.

So his initial thoughts about his daughter and what she would be doing in the middle of nowhere on a school night, to me holds plenty of meaning.

What he and his family say to the media years after the fact ... not so much.

His family (right or wrong) has been mis-leading about several things to include the mysterious 10 p.m. phone call that they KNEW ALL ALONG had no bearing in causing Maura to breakdown at her job. Family had Maura's cell phone records and knew for a fact that Maura had a phone call to her boyfriend much closer to the time she had her breakdown at work, yet family has let the media run with the 10 p.m. phone call between Maura and her sister anyway, because they know there was nothing to that phone call and they had no reasonable expectation to believe that the public would ever see Maura's cell phone records to be able to bring to attention the 12:07 a.m. call that was on her phone record between her and her boyfriend.

That is called being deceptive whether or not they had good reason to be that way or not.

If family can be deceptive in one instance, they can surely be deceptive in other instances.

Bolded by me

IIRC, Fred said that Maura was mumbling under her breath "This is the worst, this is the worst . . " or something to that affect. This was not too long after she crashed his car. So, this is why I'm not surprised he thought she may have done the squaw walk. He knew she was very upset. He also said (Disappeared TV show) that he believes she felt she disappointed him because she wrecked his new car.

JMO

 

[McSpy]

An assumption could be made, however, that fred also assumed dead as well as drunk and naked because paradoxical undress is one of the last things someone does (with hypothermia) right before they die.

IMO, Fred was hoping that maybe the wreck (unplanned) bought some more time for Maura as far as her plans to take her own life and that if investigators would've gone all out and pulled out all stops, they would've had time yet to intervene.

Fred's early comments to the media (if I recall) were pleas to maura to talk things out with him) they had never been pleas to a mysterious boogeyman to let his daughter go or return her unharmed.

After finding out additional information (For example, Maura looking up places to stay in Vermont and NH), maybe other possibilities came to mind other than suicide. She didn't go up there empty handed. She brought snacks, her stuffed monkey, alcohol, her toiletries, her favorite book, etc. So maybe there was some doubt thrown into the suicide theory.

JMO

 

[scoops]

After finding out additional information (For example, Maura looking up places to stay in Vermont and NH), maybe other possibilities came to mind other than suicide. She didn't go up there empty handed. She brought snacks, her stuffed monkey, alcohol, her toiletries, her favorite book, etc. So maybe there was some doubt thrown into the suicide theory.

JMO

I am definitely not doubting that someone can change their opinion about something (this random and unexpected). In fact, a million things might go on in one's mind after getting a phone call like Fred got.

But I believe there is evidence that Fred first thought Maura may have wanted to do personal harm to herself and that thought stayed with fred the entire drive down to the area and for at least a day or two after he got on scene.

Fred had the phone conversation with an officer first, where the thought originated that Maura may have wanted to do personal harm to herself.

Second ( a full day later) came the meeting fred had on scene of the accident and it was at that meeting that fred was putting his hands on his head and wondering out loud about whether or not Maura may have taken a statement he had told all of his kids to heart (about him going into the mountains and drinking himself to death if he ever felt worthless).

I think it's important to understand one thing concerning this.

Investigators would not have a theory concerning Maura themselves (other than a typical theory about someone abandoning their car because they had too much to drink) without knowing a single thing about that person.

Investigators would wait to hear from family first, before forming their own opinions. It is very clear from the evidence in this particular case that after police secured the initial accident scene, they DID NO FURTHER investigating (other than a BOLO) until family arrived to the area basically two days later.

I think fred did an abrupt change (and regretted mentioning the word suicide) and that may have come prior to himself and police learning about the rag found in Maura's tailpipe. If I am right about that ... then confronted with that detail and not wanting police to think his daughter harmed herself, fred would all but have to explain away the rag and even come up with a made-up story to draw attention away from it.

For the record, investigators don't know what the rag was all about, but the only logical thing they could come up with was that it was used in a make-shift spur of the moment suicide attempt on scene that didn't go as planned or didn't work.

 

[scoops]

For discussion purposes, I am releasing my interview I did with Maribeth Conway.

Maribeth Conway was a news reporter who came onto the Maura Murray case a few years after Maura had gone missing. Conway was assigned to provide a fresh look into the case and she did a very good job of re-telling the events and tying it al together concerning Maura and those final mysterious days.

Conway, in fact, went on to win a very nice award for her Maura is Missing (five-part) articles. Since, Conway has gone on to basically run a magazine (Amour Creole) which is based out of Boston.

As far as our interview (August 2012). I don't feel like Maribeth was comfortable talking to me, so her answers don't really offer up anything good (otherwise) I would've have released this sooner.

Maribeth is one of the more unique reporters to have ever worked on the Maura Murray case, because in some fashion, she had access to just about everyone (family, police, witnesses) which most reporters/journalists have not had that kind of access over the years.



Here is my brief interview with Maribeth:


1. Has the Maura Murray case stuck with you? Do you follow message
boards, the blog of James Renner etc?

MC: The case has absolutely stuck with me, rarely does a February or May, her birthday month, go by when I don't think of Maura and her father. I often feel like I'm seeing Maura's face in the faces of random young women in the streets. I do not follow any of the blogs or message boards. There was a lot of heresay and conspiracy theories being passed around. It wasn't healthy for me and I don't think it was of much help to the case. Aside from occasionally thinking of her father and his loss, I try to think very little of the case - to the extent of turning away from "shock-value" news on the case. She's become a real person, in my imagination. So I'm uncomfortable thinking about it unless I go into reporter mode on the case which I rarely due these days.

2. Your thoughts on message boards, new information about Maura such
as credit card fraud and a rocky relationship with her boyfriend? Is
this kind of stuff helpful or harmful to be found out in your opinion or even relevant to her ending up missing?

MC: See above answer.

3. Anything you would do differently now If you were just handed the
assignment of looking into the Maura Murray case and know what you
know currently? Any specific questions you wish you would’ve asked or
pursued aggressively more back in the earlier days?

MC: No more questions that I would've asked, but I would have loved to see any more documentation out of police hands.

4. What kind of feedback have you received from family and friends
about your work on the case?

MC: Many were happy to have her case kept alive and to have all the information in one comprehensive piece.

5. As being someone that had access to Fred Murray. What is he like
when the cameras aren’t on and the tape recorder is not rolling?

MC: An energetic and intense man. He seemed to live with purpose, and the purpose I witnessed was to make sure that if someone had taken Maura's life, he or she would not get away with it. I was touched by him and will never forget our drive to the accident scene or more poignantly, sitting in the hotel room with me and some of his friends, the same hotel he stayed in the first night he searched for Maura. His presence was very powerful in that hotel room - he answered my endless stream of questions, then told the story about a hike he tool with Maura. At the end of the story he just walked to the window of the hotel room, looked out into the bare parking lot with his hands on his hips and said, "Jesus." - I'll never forget that moment. It's terrible having to watch a man cope with such pain.

6. Your theory on what you believe happened to Maura?

MC: My gut feeling, she had been drinking alcohol, crashed her car, was scared police would find her and perhaps took a ride with a "friendly" stranger... just a theory.

7. How in the world did the responding officer find a rag in maura’s
tailpipe the night of the accident?

MC: I don't think it's strange that an officer found that, I think it's strange it was there in the first place.

8. Your thoughts on the Petrit Vasi hit and run angle? He was found
0.9 miles away from where Maura was working. Her shift because of its
length would warrant her the opportunity to take breaks.

MC: As I recall, this theory was slammed by most people I talked to. I don't recall enough details to comment.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did also offer to her up my personal theory that Maura may have taken her own life. I won't post the entire theory and what it involves but here was her response


MC: I read your theory and I think it is very plausible. Though I think at this point a body would have been found, and I feel she wouldn't have had much opportunity to have a clean suicide without trace given the accident, which I do think was an accident.

 

[OldSteve]

Is Maribeth Conway's series of articles still online? I can't find the paper she wrote for.

Scoops - wonder why MC was not comfortable talking to you?

I wonder if she and FM talked "off record" about suspicions he may have had about who around the crime scene might be involved. Sounds like she would have been too guarded to tell you...

 

[scoops]

Is Maribeth Conway's series of articles still online? I can't find the paper she wrote for.

Scoops - wonder why MC was not comfortable talking to you?

I wonder if she and FM talked "off record" about suspicions he may have had about who around the crime scene might be involved. Sounds like she would have been too guarded to tell you...

You can try this link:


http://z13.invisionfree.com/PorchlightUSA/index.php?showtopic=1823&st=20


Maribeth was uncomfortable talking to me because of a misunderstanding (I guess).

I had disclosed to her (before the interview) that I had contributed stuff on the blog of James Renner since the very first question I asked her mentioned the James Renner Blog.

She reached out to James before she would answer my questions and somehow the two of them came to the conclusion that I was trying to claim I was a reporter working for James Renner.

I couldn't have been more clear in my initial email to Maribeth that I was an independent journalist working on my own.

Anyway, I don't doubt that Fred had a whole list of locals that he mentioned to her. She does seem to believe everything he (fred) told her.

 

[Coffeelover]

Just thinking out loud here but if it was suicide why would she email her professors and explain her absence and bring her school books? Sounds like she was planning on coming back. Though the fact that her school book was in the car might be unrelated. My 20 yo college student daughter drives around with all sorts of stuff in her car.

 

[OldSteve]

Just thinking out loud here but if it was suicide why would she email her professors and explain her absence and bring her school books? Sounds like she was planning on coming back. Though the fact that her school book was in the car might be unrelated. My 20 yo college student daughter drives around with all sorts of stuff in her car.

Not just her professors, but also the art gallery where she worked!

The link Scoops provided is really good - covers it all in this intriguing mystery:

http://z13.invisionfree.com/Porchlig...pic=1823&st=20


Funny, every time I re-read the accounts in the ^^ I find some little detail I've missed. This time I read that there was a large road sign by the School Bus Drivers house that gave mileage to different places, and so it was speculated the MM might have walked to that sign to see how far different places were --- which explains to me why she was tracked to that point, which seems to be the place where she got into a car or was taken..

 

[scoops]

Just thinking out loud here but if it was suicide why would she email her professors and explain her absence and bring her school books? Sounds like she was planning on coming back. Though the fact that her school book was in the car might be unrelated. My 20 yo college student daughter drives around with all sorts of stuff in her car.

Only one of those tidbits are actually fact. (Maura sent an email to her nursing program department/work places).

The school books thing is something that family is pushing.

Truth is Maura had a notebook and two (quite large) reference books with her in her car. ---- I don't know anyone that does homework for a class with JUST a reference book.


The problem with this case is that much info that is supplied IMO, has been placed specifically to fit a certain narrative and sometimes that stretches the truth a bit.


back to the emails:

In my personal opinion I believe they were nothing more than time-buyers.

We are not simply talking about someone who didn't show up for a class (lecture style in an auditorium) where her absence for a day or a few days would largely go un-noticed).

If Maura just upped and left without telling anyone. Her bosses would want to know where she was, her nursing program (she had clinicals etc.) would immediately want to know where she was. That info would trickle down to Maura's friends and family rather quickly.

I don't think Maura ever intended to end her life that Monday she disappeared. Just look at the time of day she left for her mystery destination.

I think she was planning for a Monday night at a lodge (where she would've constructed a suicide note) and then I believe her suicide would've taken place the next day. that is just my opinion.

there are other cases out there, one I can't recall the name, but a college gal was killed by someone she knew and her car was found outside this person's apartment. She wasn't missing very long at all (maybe a day) and her college was already calling this girl's parents because they knew it was uncharacteristic for her to not show up to school/work. and this example was a large university, not some private small college.