AMBER ALERT NJ - Dulce Mariá Alavez, 5, abducted at Bridgeton City Park, Cumberland County, 16 Sept 2019 #5

[MsBetsy]

Also completely confused. I was very firmly in the stranger abduction camp, but right now? I'm not sure.

Personally, I think it's certainly within reason to wonder if it is possible Dulce never went to the park, BUT it also seems as though Noema is being judged for some things that are absurd. None of it makes any sense.

LE knows she went missing from the park. They have several witnesses who saw her there. There's never been any doubt as far as I can tell.
It's disappointing that the community does not seem to be supporting and helping this family to find Dulce. The family are the only ones who are keeping the story in the media.

It's a stark contrast to Cupcake's case, where so many volunteers are searching and going door to door, asking everybody in the area if they have seen her and reminding them that she is still missing.
I hope Dulce is found soon. This family needs some answers.

Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

Thanks, cass523, for sharing part of the podcast. I do agree with others here that trying to make a big deal over the use of "ground" versus "floor" smacks of someone who has never encountered a friend or relative who grew up surrounded by other languages. My Russian grandmother spoke "pidgin English," meaning she too misused many words. To try and apply statement analysis on something so trite is IMO unprofessional. A psychologist once told me a story of when he was giving an IQ test to a child from a lower income home who identified a water pitcher as a "Kool Aid Thing." He said technically it was a wrong answer but he understood the connotation given the kid's background.

And what source is the psychologist stating to back up her assertion that the police do not believe Dulce was ever at the park? Did she say where she got that information?

Furthermore, the discussion of Dulce never being at the park is essentially saying the 8-year-old is a liar. Do they not think LE is smart enough to vet the girl and quickly learn if she was lying to cover for Dulce's mother? Just because an attorney from another state and not related to the case believes LE should release a statement saying they can confirm Dulce was in the park means squat - and she should darn well know that.

So based on this my confidence level in NG is low. She chose her guests and she chose not to thoroughly fact check. Now, if you tell me NG challenged some of what these people said then I'm willing to admit that the podcast has value beyond publicity for Dulce's case.

BTW, none of this is aimed at you - I appreciate your sharing the contents of the podcast - but rather it's aimed at NG, and some of my frustration is because of those past cases.

And I do agree with parts. At 19 Dulce's mother appears to be a bit immature and I can understand some of the criticism. It is unexpected that she couldn't remember what Dulce was wearing regardless of who dressed her and in the convenience store video at times she appeared to be detached or distracted. IMO.

All MOO. And sorry for responding with a novella.

I don't understand how anyone can criticize a young mother who is grieving over the loss of her daughter. Especially over her use of words and remembering what her daughter was wearing. How does that help in any way to find Dulce?

There have been times I couldn't remember what my daughter had on. Some kids change a lot and it's hard to remember which shirt or pants they ended up wearing when they left the house.
Dulce may have been wearing her school uniform if her mom picked her up from school and she just forgot which clothes she changed into.
It certainly doesn't mean she is lying or she never saw her at all that day or she didn't bring Dulce to the park.
LE interviewed over 24 witnesses who were there. We know some of them saw Dulce, because her mom mentioned them in the 911 call.

Imo

 

[Andreee]

I don't understand how anyone can criticize a young mother who is grieving over the loss of her daughter. Especially over her use of words and remembering what her daughter was wearing. How does that help in any way to find Dulce?

There have been times I couldn't remember what my daughter had on. Some kids change a lot and it's hard to remember which shirt or pants they ended up wearing when they left the house.
Dulce may have been wearing her school uniform if her mom picked her up from school and she just forgot which clothes she changed into.
It certainly doesn't mean she is lying or she never saw her at all that day or she didn't bring Dulce to the park.
LE interviewed over 24 witnesses who were there. We know some of them saw Dulce, because her mom mentioned them in the 911 call.

Imo

Exactly! I know that if I was in that position as a mom, I would be in such distress I probably would not remember what my daughter was wearing either! Not to mention the fact that the mom's mom is the one who is the main caregiver of Dulce. Thankfully, Websleuths is a victim friendly site, so I just go ahead and report anyone who makes aspersions against victim families unless LE names them as a suspect of course! It really is awful how on some sites people just go ahead and make all kinds of accusations and personal digs at victims family members.

 

[Trackergd]

It really is awful how on some sites people just go ahead and make all kinds of accusations and personal digs at victims family members.

Respectfully snipped.
This reminded me to thank the moderators, notably Silly Billy in these threads for effectively walking a tight rope, removing the offending posts, leaving those just this side of the TOS line intact and keeping the thread open. This is the best forum of it's type on the internet, by far and it has solved more than a few unidentified remains cases. I know for a fact that LE has peeked at these threads over the years for ideas. Now Back To Work! What did we miss?

 

[Steelslady]

This is just awful. Not a trace of poor Dulce. Seeing her and her little brother picking out ice cream before they went to the park made my heart pitter patter. My oldest daughter was like that with my son- so motherly and protective- it was precious to see her lift him up so he could choose his own ice cream.

This is just killing me and I know it's upsetting everyone else, too. This poor girl literally has vanished into thin air, not even her ice cream cup or spoon has been found.

What happened to her?

How far did that dog go before he lost her scent? Why doesn't LE speak of this- maybe if it was told where the dog last picked up her scent, it might jog a memory or two for people.

In some cases, the less that LE says, the better, but not in cases like this! This doesn't help find her, this doesn't help jog people's memories of that day, this doesn't help her family, who is under constant attack since she disappeared.

Who knows, we may be shocked in the end and it could be someone close to her is responsible for her disappearance. Yet, the silence from LE doesn't help get this solved, either.

Something has got to give here.

 

[Beekarina]

I want to be clear that I absolutely understand how Noema could forget what Dulce was wearing, while under duress. I don't think those kinds of "details" imply anything about her. I called 911 once when I couldn't find a pulse on my mom, and while most of the time, I'm pretty level headed, everything happened so fast, I was a panicked mess thinking she was dead. And I have some medical training, am much older than Noema, BUT? It was my mom....my rational, thinking brain just went offline for a few minutes. It was awful.

 

[ProtectChildren]

LE knows she went missing from the park. They have several witnesses who saw her there. There's never been any doubt as far as I can tell.
It's disappointing that the community does not seem to be supporting and helping this family to find Dulce. The family are the only ones who are keeping the story in the media.

It's a stark contrast to Cupcake's case, where so many volunteers are searching and going door to door, asking everybody in the area if they have seen her and reminding them that she is still missing.
I hope Dulce is found soon. This family needs some answers.

Imo

I agree with the contrast between the response of the communities of Dulce and Cupcake.

I wanted to cut and paste from the nj.com article mentioned recently in this thread that there will be another search Sunday morning. Additionally the article mentions a clothing and food drive for the family of Dulce Maria who are not receiving income from working at this difficult time.
Items can be taken to Reeves Johnson park Saturday from 4-630 in Bridgeton.

My cut and paste is not working, more info at link.

 

[Trackergd]

How far did that dog go before he lost her scent? Why doesn't LE speak of this- maybe if it was told where the dog last picked up her scent, it might jog a memory or two for people..

Respectfully snipped for space.

To me, this is the one key piece of the puzzle. It also would us direction of travel, how far she traveled and if any further ground searches would be warranted. I can't see where that particular piece of evidence being released would compromise the case.

 

[Rosiebones]

Police searching for 5-year-old girl who went missing Monday night in Bridgeton park
I have wondered from the very beginning why LE searched Sunset Lake which is at the other end of the park and why they drained the raceway which is up there too, as the first areas of intense searching with dive teams etc. It seemed so distant from where she disappeared from.
Did the dog track her for an hour up into that area? If so then why did did LE emphasize the red van from the start?
I must be missing something here

 

[Steelslady]

Respectfully snipped for space.

To me, this is the one key piece of the puzzle. It also would us direction of travel, how far she traveled and if any further ground searches would be warranted. I can't see where that particular piece of evidence being released would compromise the case.

Same here and it just seems silly to leave it out of their conferences. They gave one location that it happened- behind the buildings. However, if she ran further away from the buildings- never know, some teens walking around the area might remember seeing a little girl run by or into the woods. People will dismiss from their minds important information like that, if they read or hear that she was taken in one area, when she may have disappeared from a different area, further away.

 

[PunkCake]

Back just to check in !

As you have all noticed. This case is spiraling and all of the new cases of abductions that have literally happened this past week, the media and the public don’t know which way this is going to end up.

The difference is. There are solid, credible, and timely witness statements & descriptions.

In this case, it took extra time to even get the amber alert taken out. Why? Because the facts trickled in and varied.

The community on social media is ... toxic. Extremely polarized and nonsensical. I was kicked out of various discussion groups for simply aligning the facts that contradicted which ever narrative that specific group was pushing.
Too much heart & too little head unfortunately..

 

[PunkCake]

thank you!! I was going to say, isn’t it usual for 911 operators to be trained to ‘mirror’ language, and not put words in caller’s mouth? (Of course, Nancy Grace and plenty of print journalists don’t do this consistently either, and both categories of people have had more training than an EMT has, if they are degreed.)

Lol sorry I’m super late to this but in some instances where the caller is in shock, you present options like “okay so it was a man, was he wearing pants or shorts? could you see if he was black or white?”

But, that 2 black males this was just a complete fail.

 

[cdnjan]

October 3rd 911 tapes released
October 9th reward for information increased
October 11th sketch drawn

SBM I find it very odd that the news article is Oct.9, in that article they speak of the sketch. But the sketch is dated 10/11/19 so confusing Sketch released of possible witness in case of Dulce Maria Alavez

 

[quidnunc247]

Yes, I remember NG having some facts wrong in some cases, but in this case at the start she did not believe mom had anything to do with this, but she did say she parked too far from where the kids were playing.

This podcast, NG said to her guests, "I am not saying the mom is involved in this. You are analyzing this in a completely different vein. I am just wondering if we are attacking the mom because we need to attack somebody and we don't know which way to go with it or are some of the guests right?"

A few are weighing in on just the facts of the case. They don't believe the mother. they don't believe Dulce was ever in the park.

I am posting parts of the podcast if you did not listen to it. Their opinions based on the facts

Psychologist; Sheryl McCollum: "There are concerns about mom saying the little boy's ice cream fell on the floor instead of saying the ground. Because mom used the word floor and not ground when the ice cream fell, was there a situation that caused the ice cream to actually fall on the floor, but it was inside their house or on the floorboards in the car. It sounds like they were inside not outside, this concerns me. They were outside, she should have said ground.

Everything that comes out of this woman's mouth, I want to believe her, I can't. She is not giving me any reason to believe her.

You don't know what she is wearing, you never use her name, you never asked for help, she parked far away.The best witness is a crying 3 yr-old and some child that describes "somebody" The police do not even believe she was there. Said mom has given no reasons to believe her.

The video of her getting ice cream is the last time we have Dulce on film. That is it. Nobody else at the park took a picture, has a video of her, nobody on a camera or on a surveillance camera has her. They can't verify she was ever at that park. Nothing about the fact pattern or timeline makes any sense to them"

John Cardillo, Former NYPD: "I am not sure that child was ever in that park. We live in a surveillance state right now. With all the ring and surveillance cameras in homes, businesses today, you really can't go anywhere without some surveillance camera capturing something. I have suspicions that the kid ever made it to the park itself."

He then goes on to talk about legal behavior and criminal behavior with the people at the park and witnesses.

Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina Family attorney: "They also talk about the 8 yr-old sister who was apparently with this mother and I have not heard anything that this 8 yr-old is saying and whether they were actually at this parking lot, whether the kids were actually with them. But it is concerning to me that nothing, nothing has come from this mother, that has been helpful."

They want her to take a polygraph.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace 10/11

Edits grammar corrections

I believe Sheryl McCollum is a crime scene investigator and works on cold cases. Maybe she’s a psychologist too. Sheryl McCollum - Wikipedia

I wish NG would have guests who are local reporters or at least very familiar with the case. It’s frustrating to hear a statement that’s blatantly untrue. I stopped listening during Lucas’ case. I believe it was after Mark Klass stated that Lucas would be found less than a mile from his home.

I think I’ll skip this one and save myself the outrage.

 

[quidnunc247]

Yes, it's obvious they know nothing about the case, as they did not take into account that this mother did not have custody of her child and did not live with her.

In the Klauss case weren't the parents the sole guardians and didn't the child live with them?

Was the mother nineteen and pregnant?

It is a weak argument to claim Dulces mother is responsible because she couldn't remember what she was wearing.

We have already discussed that we as parents can't always say what our kids are wearing on any given day.

To claim that is evidence that the mother is involved is irresponsible and ignorant.

Imo

I’ve never understood the guest selection process. It seems to be a regular cycle of 5-6 people.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I’ve never understood the guest selection process. It seems to be a regular cycle of 5-6 people.

Perhaps they have some arrangement.

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[jjenny]

Police searching for 5-year-old girl who went missing Monday night in Bridgeton park
I have wondered from the very beginning why LE searched Sunset Lake which is at the other end of the park and why they drained the raceway which is up there too, as the first areas of intense searching with dive teams etc. It seemed so distant from where she disappeared from.
Did the dog track her for an hour up into that area? If so then why did did LE emphasize the red van from the start?
I must be missing something here

As far as I can tell vehicle description is needed for an Amber alert. Which could be why LE went with a red van story, even if it comes from a child of tender years (possibly even non-verbal 3 year old brother).

 

[Backstroke10]

I don't understand how anyone can criticize a young mother who is grieving over the loss of her daughter. Especially over her use of words and remembering what her daughter was wearing. How does that help in any way to find Dulce?

There have been times I couldn't remember what my daughter had on. Some kids change a lot and it's hard to remember which shirt or pants they ended up wearing when they left the house.
Dulce may have been wearing her school uniform if her mom picked her up from school and she just forgot which clothes she changed into.
It certainly doesn't mean she is lying or she never saw her at all that day or she didn't bring Dulce to the park.
LE interviewed over 24 witnesses who were there. We know some of them saw Dulce, because her mom mentioned them in the 911 call.
Imo

I want to be clear that I absolutely understand how Noema could forget what Dulce was wearing, while under duress. I don't think those kinds of "details" imply anything about her. I called 911 once when I couldn't find a pulse on my mom, and while most of the time, I'm pretty level headed, everything happened so fast, I was a panicked mess thinking she was dead. And I have some medical training, am much older than Noema, BUT? It was my mom....my rational, thinking brain just went offline for a few minutes. It was awful.

BBM I completely agree. In fact, every time there's a case like this, I try to remember what my son was wearing when he left for work and/or school. He always walks to the back patio to tell me goodbye and where he's going. Nine times out of ten, I couldn't tell you what he was wearing. MOO

 

[Rockcity80]

This is just awful. Not a trace of poor Dulce. Seeing her and her little brother picking out ice cream before they went to the park made my heart pitter patter. My oldest daughter was like that with my son- so motherly and protective- it was precious to see her lift him up so he could choose his own ice cream.

This is just killing me and I know it's upsetting everyone else, too. This poor girl literally has vanished into thin air, not even her ice cream cup or spoon has been found.

What happened to her?

How far did that dog go before he lost her scent? Why doesn't LE speak of this- maybe if it was told where the dog last picked up her scent, it might jog a memory or two for people.

In some cases, the less that LE says, the better, but not in cases like this! This doesn't help find her, this doesn't help jog people's memories of that day, this doesn't help her family, who is under constant attack since she disappeared.

Who knows, we may be shocked in the end and it could be someone close to her is responsible for her disappearance. Yet, the silence from LE doesn't help get this solved, either.

Something has got to give here.

I feel exactly the same way.

 

[MsBetsy]

BBM I completely agree. In fact, every time there's a case like this, I try to remember what my son was wearing when he left for work and/or school. He always walks to the back patio to tell me goodbye and where he's going. Nine times out of ten, I couldn't tell you what he was wearing. MOO

I know what you mean. My daughter just told me she was going next door (to her friends house) and I looked right at her and said ok, see you later, and I have no idea what she was wearing.
I guess I should pay more attention. She's in a "black" phase now so she's probably wearing something black.

It's funny you should mention how you try to remember what your son was wearing because I've done the same thing a few times. I've tried to remember what my daughter was wearing that morning while she was in school and I could not remember. I was never aware of how easy it is to forget until I did that.

There must be something about memory that even when you look right at a person and notice something at the time you can't always recall it later.

Maybe that's why witness descriptions are so unreliable and varied. Imo