NJ NJ - Mindy Jordan, 46, missing from cruise ship off Atlantic City, 11 May 2008

[JBean]

Like I said, I've only seen one alleged witness statement to the actual incident, and two different versions at that.

When it comes to a death, I would not want to assume anything. Facts, I want the facts.

The last statement I saw by the FBI said that they did not have a definitive answer on if there was foul play or not. I believe they took the film back to their laboratory to see if they could make it clearer.

Again, I would not assume anything when it comes to a questionable death.

We haven't seen the hospital reports about her surgery, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I believe the family and apparently so did the FBI, which is why they are investigating the alleged accident. I would be just like this family and leave no stone unturned regarding this incident if it were my loved one. ESPECIALLY when there's a history of abuse.

Like I've indicated, I would, at the least, want to see the statements by the alleged additional witnesses before I'd rule this an accident. I'd also go to the FBI labs and view the film. Oh, and I'd like to know, were these adjoining rooms, a door between, or not?

I'm on the fence on IF this was a accident. I just need answers before I'd rule either way. Again, I don't want to 'assume' anything, seeing the history of this couple. I would hope if I was the victim, my family would do the same.

JMHO
fran

Can't argue with anything you say Fran. I am leaning more towards a tragic accident, but either which way I think it is critical that it be examined thoroughly until everyone is satisfied..if that is possible.

 

[browneyes]

I still go back to the boyfriend's contradiction about how she fell from the balcony and fell onto something on a deck below..he rushed to help her. NCL says it's tape shows she fell straight from the balcony into the water.

It can't be both ways.

 

[FlowerChild]

I still go back to the boyfriend's contradiction about how she fell from the balcony and fell onto something on a deck below..he rushed to help her. NCL says it's tape shows she fell straight from the balcony into the water.

It can't be both ways.

I believe what Jorge MIGHT have been trying to say is that as she fell she either grabbed onto something - perhaps on the balcony OR she was standing up or sitting on the balcony railing she fell back and hit her head while still ON the balcony - causing her to fall.

We must remember that Jorge was in shock and like most eyewitnesses, does not have a 100% accurate memory of the events surrounding Mindy's fall. It would be something I would certainly try to forget or block the memory of. Plus, we are relying on what Mindy's mother said Jorge said in the call - we have no way of knowing what Jorge actually said to Mindy's Mother OR the investigators. Mindy's Mother may be saying he told her something different, but we don't know for a fact that he said anything different than his statements to NCL OR the FBI.

All the negative information on Jorge has come only from Mindy's Mother - and Jorge acknowledged from the beginning that Mindy's Mother did not like him. No-one else - including Mindy's children, ex-husband, other family, her friends or co-workers have come forward to corroborate Mindy's Mother's statements about Jorge. And Jorge did NOT ask NCL or the FBI to contact Mindy's Mother - even knowing that she disliked him and would probably suspect or blame him he still called Mindy's Mother himself. In addition, Jorge has not said a negative word publicly about Mindy's Mother or being a suspect in Mindy's death.

Not every man who's significant other, girlfriend, or wife dies under suspicious circumstances is guilty of murder. I think the cases here on WS have made us all overly suspicious of "the man" in any death - it's the 1st place we go when something like Mindy's death makes the news...but it's NOT the answer in EVERY case. In THIS case I think the fact that Jorge was not anywhere NEAR Mindy when she did whatever she did that caused her to fall and was with HER FRIENDS in another room have to be considered very STRONG evidence that Mindy was not murdered by Jorge.

And I must disagree that abusive men just snap and kill without some escalation or motivation - especially since Jorge was only in the room with Mindy for 8 minutes and no-one heard any yelling or violence. AND there is video of Jorge, Mindy and friends caming back from dinner (did Jorge appear agitated or angry?), video of Jorge going to the friend's room (again did he appear nervous, agitated or angry?) and then there are Mindy's friends who saw him immediately after he left her and witnessed Jorge's reaction to Mindy falling. I would think her friends would be the 1st to throw up some red flags if they thought Jorge had done something "bad" to Mindy or somehow engineered or caused her fall. Yes, some violent men do go "off" with little warning BUT there is normally some sign of impending violence - not to mention the SOUNDS of physical abuse. Doing physical violence to a woman isn't silent - the victim is going to make some sounds - even if the man doesn't. And 8 minutes is NOT a lot of time to snap, beat up your girlfriend, clean up, calm down and then go next door as if everything is normal.

My Opinion

 

[SuziQ]

http://www.letswrap.com/dvinfo/whatis.htm

Characteristics of Men Who Batter

Abusive men tend to express "hard" emotions, guilt, frustration, hurt, etc. as anger. Generally expressing either happiness or anger, but nothing in between. Everything is either fine and wonderful, or there is a violent explosion.

 

[SuziQ]

http://www.letswrap.com/dvinfo/warning.htm

The abusive man:

• shows extreme jealousy and wants to keep the woman isolated.
• has an inability to cope with stress and shows a lack of impulse control. (This may not necessarily appear outside the home)
• has a poor self-image and blames others for problems.
• shows severe mood swings.
• may have a history of abuse in his own family and may have been abusive in courtship.
• presents a history of personal and/or family discord; unemployment, cruelty to animals, abuse of alcohol or other substances, and other unexplained behavior.

 

[FlowerChild]

But we still have NO verification that Jorge was a habitual batterer. We have the word of Mindy's Mother, who may or may not know the whole story. Are there police reports? Was Jorge a known abuser? They had been living together 3 years, or longer so is there a RECORD of calls to the home for abuse? Was Jorge ever arrested? Was this a habitual problem or was there just ONE incident and no others? What about Mindy's co-workers? Her children? Her friends? Were they aware or had the noticed any signs of Mindy being abused? Was Mindy reckless or abusive herself? Did she drink to excess or abuse drugs? Why were her children living with their father and not Mindy?

Mothers do not always know what their adult children's lives are really like. There are some things one does not usually discuss with ones Mother. There are certainly lies told to parents by adult children and the children often do not confide the truth about certain situations to their MOTHERS! Funny that not a single person other than Mindy's mother has said a word about Jorge being abusive - even after knowing what happened to her.

And I have dealt with more than one type of abusive man in my life (and in my friend's and family's lives) and I have yet to see any TWO abusive men alike...generalities seldom fit. I do see in every abusive man the need for CONTROL and cutting off of the woman from her friends and family and the inappropriate responses to frustration. It's obvious with most abusers that there is something irrational seething just below the surface - it's expressed in negative comments, belittling the woman and her friends/family, facial expressions, verbal cruelty and emotional abuse, body language and obvious struggles to maintain public control when frustrated or confronted. Batterers dont abuse from anger, it's about CONTROL (and loss of control) and BLAME...nothing is ever the abuser's fault - even his own lack of control becomes HER fault.

There are some FACTS we do know - We KNOW Jorge did not kill Mindy in that 8 minutes because she was alive and well and out on the balcony alone 20+ minutes later. Based on the verified 8 minute window and his immediate appearance in the friend's room Jorge should have had physical bruising or cuts/scrapes on his hands if he struck Mindy hard enough to make her fall off a balcony with a solid barrier 40" high 20 minutes after he had left their room. If he hit her with an object, pushed her down or she fell into an object there would likely have been blood and signs of a confrontation in the room or on the balcony. And yet there were no signs of that noted and the FBI/NCL/Friends said NOTHING about Jorge having injuries, anyone hearing Mindy fall, scream or cry (and those cabins are FAR FROM SOUNDPROOF) or there being signs of violence in the room.

So, the case as presented here is that Jorge is an abuser and killed Mindy. But where is the connection to what we KNOW killed her? If Jorge did hit Mindy in that 8 minute window that still doesn't explain how Jorge managed to make Mindy fall off the balcony (with a solid railing about 40" tall) next door over 20 minutes after he left the room. How did him beating her make her fall overboard without him physically being on that balcony WITH her?

And the FBI and NCL BOTH said MINDY WAS ALONE ON THE BALCONY WHEN SHE FELL. That doesn't seem to be in question AT ALL - so obviously they have PROOF that Jorge was not in the room or on the balcony with Mindy at the time she fell. I just do not see any connection between Jorge battering Mindy and her falling. Obviously Jorge was not on the friend's balcony hitting Mindy while she was on her balcony and there would have been NO WAY for him to force Mindy to climb around on the railing and fall from next door. It had to have been Mindy's CHOICE to climb from her balcony to the friend's balcony, in the rain, while the wind was gusting hard. I guess I am not seeing a logical connection to a scenario of Jorge battering Mindy (in 8 minutes) or being an abuser and Mindy falling overboard over 20 minutes after he left the room and was with 2 witnesses who were not even his friends, but hers?

My Opinion

 

[fran]

An abuser separates his victim from family and friends in order to maintain control.

"No one knows what goes on in this marriage but you and me." That's a pretty standard saying, in some form for a batterer. Scott Peterson's version of that was "No one knew what went on in our marriage but Laci and me." Statement made in infamous Diane Sawyer interview with Scott Peterson. Oh, and there was no history of SP abusing Laci BEFORE he murdered her.

It's no wonder Mindy's family didn't like old Jorge. I wouldn't like an abusive SO of one of my four daughters either. Thank goodness they're not in such a relationship now.

Jorge KNOWS why Mindy's family doesn't like him.

Jorge is NOT going to admit he is an abuser. It's never their fault anyway. Just ask any of 'em.

There's no statement by Mindy's friends that Jorge didn't abuse Mindy.

There's no statement by the hospital there was not an operation to Mindy's face.

I don't believe the FBI is just taking Jorge's word for it either. I'll wait to hear what the professionals have to say before I decide if this is an accident or not.

JMHO
fran

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/112-05172008-1535483.html

FBI: Case of woman's fall from cruise ship not closed

<<snip>>

Margolin said agents left Bermuda Thursday night but the investigation will continue. Specifically, he said some of the surveillance video from the cruise liner was sent to a lab for possible enhancement. He said the railing and a glass partition from the balcony where Jordan fell were also sent to a lab for further investigation.

Margolin also refuted a statement issued by Norwegian Cruise Lines Thursday night that said the FBI's preliminary findings were consistent with the cruise line's account that Jordan was alone in her stateroom immediately prior to falling overboard and that she fell while trying to climb between adjacent balconies.

“Our investigation is still open and we have not given any type of preliminary assessment,” Margolin said.

 

[FlowerChild]

Mark Mershon, an FBI assistant director, told Fox News that the video quality is not clean enough to determine exactly what happened. But, he said, "The information that we have acquired does not suggest a crime, but that is not definitive."
Jim Margolin, a spokesman for the FBI's New York office, said the agency might not make an announcement if its probe finds that no crime was committed.
Timeline
May 11
Jordan and Caputo dined at the Garden Caf&#233; with the couple they were traveling with and then returned to their assigned adjacent staterooms at 7:28 p.m.
At 7:36 p.m., Caputo left their stateroom and went to join her friends in their stateroom next door. From that moment on, Jordan was alone in her stateroom.
At 7:53 p.m., surveillance cameras from the exterior of the ship captured Jordan falling overboard from her balcony, straight into the water. Shortly thereafter, an emergency call was made from the friends' stateroom, and Caputo was seen exiting to seek help.
At 7:57 p.m., a man overboard announcement was made and the ship's crew began lifesaving operations, including the launch of two rescue boats.
May 12
Jorge Caputo phones Mrs Horton (Mindy's Mother) and informs her that Mindy has fallen overboard and is missing
May 14
The FBI boards the ship in Bermuda - Caputo held on the ship and was questioned by the FBI for most of May 15th and again the next morning, before he returned home the evening of May 16th
_______________
On May 16th Mindy's Mother, Mrs. Louise Horton declined the cruise line's offer to fly her to Bermuda to see the video and pick up her daughter's belongings.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newjersey/ny-bc-nj--cruisepassengerov0515may15,0,506095.story
_______________
There were all sorts of rumors off the boat yesterday and today that there was drinking involved.

You know, we haven't heard from the FBI. I don't think we will directly because they typically don't comment on investigations that don't go somewhere.

The family has accused him of being abusive to Mindy over the two-and-a-half-year relationship they've had.
All Above from:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356335,00.html
_______________
It has been 2 weeks since the investigation began with NO FURTHER ANNOUNCEMENTS. The FBI has said that there may not be an announcement made unless they determine a crime has been committed. Jorge Caputo has not been arrested, and he has made no statements and has NOT been photographed or interviewed by the media. The only statements to the media have been by Mrs Horton and by Mindy's sister Julie August, who was interviewed briefly on Greta.

And The FBI was set to meet with Mindy's family May 17th - not a word from the family since

Per Julie August:
The FBI is said to be -- you know, have looked at that videotape, and they are going to be meeting with my mother tomorrow. And we have faith in the FBI that on the family's behalf, they'll be able to, you know, look at that videotape, talk to witnesses, again, on our behalf.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356335,00.html

My Opinion

 

[Blink34]

An abuser separates his victim from family and friends in order to maintain control.

"No one knows what goes on in this marriage but you and me." That's a pretty standard saying, in some form for a batterer. Scott Peterson's version of that was "No one knew what went on in our marriage but Laci and me." Statement made in infamous Diane Sawyer interview with Scott Peterson. Oh, and there was no history of SP abusing Laci BEFORE he murdered her.

It's no wonder Mindy's family didn't like old Jorge. I wouldn't like an abusive SO of one of my four daughters either. Thank goodness they're not in such a relationship now.

Jorge KNOWS why Mindy's family doesn't like him.

Jorge is NOT going to admit he is an abuser. It's never their fault anyway. Just ask any of 'em.

There's no statement by Mindy's friends that Jorge didn't abuse Mindy.

There's no statement by the hospital there was not an operation to Mindy's face.

I don't believe the FBI is just taking Jorge's word for it either. I'll wait to hear what the professionals have to say before I decide if this is an accident or not.

JMHO
fran

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/112-05172008-1535483.html

FBI: Case of woman's fall from cruise ship not closed

<<snip>>

Margolin said agents left Bermuda Thursday night but the investigation will continue. Specifically, he said some of the surveillance video from the cruise liner was sent to a lab for possible enhancement. He said the railing and a glass partition from the balcony where Jordan fell were also sent to a lab for further investigation.

Margolin also refuted a statement issued by Norwegian Cruise Lines Thursday night that said the FBI's preliminary findings were consistent with the cruise line's account that Jordan was alone in her stateroom immediately prior to falling overboard and that she fell while trying to climb between adjacent balconies.

“Our investigation is still open and we have not given any type of preliminary assessment,” Margolin said.

With ya Fran- not forming an opinion yet on this one, but I can tell you the FBI does not remove partitions and railings from a cruiseliner in the Caribbean needlessly. There is no definitive proof this is an accident yet-video or not, or this case would be closed.

 

[fran]

With ya Fran- not forming an opinion yet on this one, but I can tell you the FBI does not remove partitions and railings from a cruiseliner in the Caribbean needlessly. There is no definitive proof this is an accident yet-video or not, or this case would be closed.

The one thing that bothers me is Jorge told her mother that 'we were fooling around,' implying he was with her.

The other thing that bothers me is he also told her mom, 'I tried to help her (or reach for her?) but she couldn't hold on and fell into the water.' Yet the ships camera shows her falling directly into the water from the balcony. The camera also does NOT show what went on on the balcony, behind the railing.

Of course, since the ship has come out saying they have video of him leaving the room and she was 'alone,' we haven't heard him make any more statements.

Was there a connecting door to the two cabins?
Were there additional witnesses besides Jorge and the Cruise Ship cameras?

Until I get clarification on these, my mind is not made up either way.

FWIW, when I first heard of this incident, I thought it was an accident. But,.......now that I know he's an abuser, NOTHING is impossible and things are NOT always what they may seem. That's what part of abuse is all about after all, ....'control.' Especially CONTROL of the facts.

JMHO
fran

 

[JBean]

The one thing that bothers me is Jorge told her mother that 'we were fooling around,' implying he was with her.

The other thing that bothers me is he also told her mom, 'I tried to help her (or reach for her?) but she couldn't hold on and fell into the water.' Yet the ships camera shows her falling directly into the water from the balcony. The camera also does NOT show what went on on the balcony, behind the railing.

Of course, since the ship has come out saying they have video of him leaving the room and she was 'alone,' we haven't heard him make any more statements.

Was there a connecting door to the two cabins?
Were there additional witnesses besides Jorge and the Cruise Ship cameras?

Until I get clarification on these, my mind is not made up either way.

FWIW, when I first heard of this incident, I thought it was an accident. But,.......now that I know he's an abuser, NOTHING is impossible and things are NOT always what they may seem. That's what part of abuse is all about after all, ....'control.' Especially CONTROL of the facts.

JMHO
fran

I think he was in contact with her aroud the balconies. This is how they saw what happened and how he was able to call for help so quickly. Maybe she was handing him something and they got to goofing around and she thought she coulod just hop over. I just don't find this unreasonable at all.
I agree that this should all be examined, and his history of abuse is clearly one reason it should be carefully reviewed.But, at this point I am not seeing his connection to this yet.

 

[FlowerChild]

With ya Fran- not forming an opinion yet on this one, but I can tell you the FBI does not remove partitions and railings from a cruiseliner in the Caribbean needlessly. There is no definitive proof this is an accident yet-video or not, or this case would be closed.

But since the FBI doesn't COMMENT on cases that "go nowhere" it may be closed already. They don't discuss cases that they found no need to pursue.

It is very "telling" to me that once Mindy's Mother (and family) met with the FBI on May 17th she (and the family) have said NOTHING to the media. I would assume that if the FBI investigation found ANYTHING suspicious and a case was going forward against Jorge, Mindy's Mother/family would be speaking out on Greta and Nancy and in the newspapers and online. We KNOW Greta was in touch with Mindy's Mom and sister directly on May 16th and there has been nary a peep from them since. I have searched everywhere and the communication with the media all STOPPED cold on May 17th. - and it is now May 29th with not a single update or comment from ANYONE - The other couple, NCL, FBI, or Mindy's family.

Either the FBI has gagged the family (not likely since they have no involvement in Mindy's death and can offer NO testimony on it) OR the family was encouraged by the FBI to stop the media campaign against Jorge before he had enough to sue them for slander/defamation OR since it was found to be an accident - NCL offered the family a settlement only if they stopped talking to the media.

I don't know that we will hear ANY updates on this...if Jorge was NOT found to be culpable in Mindy's death I think it will just fade away in the media (if it hasn't already).

My Opinion

 

[SuziQ]

Could this be Mindy?

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/16457598/detail.html

Authorities say a fisherman found a body in the ocean near Little River.

Lt. Bob Carr of the Horry County Police Department told The (Myrtle Beach) Sun News on Sunday that authorities had been investigating a missing persons case. Carr said the woman has not been identified but that the missing persons case is probably related.

The fisherman reported the body to a police officer in the area.

 

[csds703]

Could this be Mindy?

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/16457598/detail.html

Authorities say a fisherman found a body in the ocean near Little River.

Lt. Bob Carr of the Horry County Police Department told The (Myrtle Beach) Sun News on Sunday that authorities had been investigating a missing persons case. Carr said the woman has not been identified but that the missing persons case is probably related.

The fisherman reported the body to a police officer in the area.

She went over near Atlantic City NJ.

 

[SuziQ]

She went over near Atlantic City NJ.

Yeah, but where would she wash up?

 

[Elphaba]

If her body was not lost to the oceanic environment (namely, predators), I would think that the gulf stream current would carry her body in a more northernly direction.

Since the report about a body near SC was found in the ocean near Little River, it could have easily came down Little River... I say check missing person reports in the SC area.

 

[SuziQ]

If her body was not lost to the oceanic environment (namely, predators), I would think that the gulf stream current would carry her body in a more northernly direction.

Since the report about a body near SC was found in the ocean near Little River, it could have easily came down Little River... I say check missing person reports in the SC area.

Thanks! What's your best guess as to where Mindy would come to shore?

 

[KR2tonenow]

http://www.letswrap.com/dvinfo/warning.htm

The abusive man:

• shows extreme jealousy and wants to keep the woman isolated.
• has an inability to cope with stress and shows a lack of impulse control. (This may not necessarily appear outside the home)
• has a poor self-image and blames others for problems.
• shows severe mood swings.
• may have a history of abuse in his own family and may have been abusive in courtship.
• presents a history of personal and/or family discord; unemployment, cruelty to animals, abuse of alcohol or other substances, and other unexplained behavior.

Your point is well taken with me! Fran, your above post was right on target!

 

[KOOL LOOK]

Could this be Mindy?

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/16457598/detail.html

Authorities say a fisherman found a body in the ocean near Little River.

Lt. Bob Carr of the Horry County Police Department told The (Myrtle Beach) Sun News on Sunday that authorities had been investigating a missing persons case. Carr said the woman has not been identified but that the missing persons case is probably related.

The fisherman reported the body to a police officer in the area.

Very interesting. This area is in my back yard approximately. I live about fifty minutes away. I have family that lives i Little river, Horry county georgetown, etc... I would like to get the results either way.