NM NM - Patty Pritz, 14, & Mattie Restine, 13, Carlsbad, 11 Aug 1961 - #1

[Sunshine 1950]

Sunshine, do you or does anyone else know if this Margaret had any brothers?

The closest Warbels I've found are in AZ and CO.

I don't know anything about her family. Legacy tried to help me out. She found some of them in Arizona. But when I contacted the name she gave me ...this person said she didn't know a Margaret Warbel. But what was funny about that was...she first said...When did Margaret die....could I please let her know which newspaper the obit was in. I told her I didn't say Margaret had died. I told her what I knew...anyway...then this lady wrote me back and said she couldn't help me. So here I am again asking if anyone knew of Margaret Warbel's whereabouts.

 

[Jan1966]

Does anyone know or know someone that might know about the Freedom of Information Act? I have read the act and am trying to find out if it is possible to gain the information from the ECSO or FBI files using this act. From what I have read it looks possible but I don't know enough about the use with law enforcement files. Since the statute of limitations has ran out on this case I don't see why they are hanging on so tightly to the files. Any information would be appreciated :croc:

 

[Sunshine 1950]

Does anyone know or know someone that might know about the Freedom of Information Act? I have read the act and am trying to find out if it is possible to gain the information from the ECSO or FBI files using this act. From what I have read it looks possible but I don't know enough about the use with law enforcement files. Since the statute of limitations has ran out on this case I don't see why they are hanging on so tightly to the files. Any information would be appreciated :croc:

Yes, if any of you people on this website could help us out with understanding this law it would be greatly appreciated. I have talked with the investigator regarding the files and he says that they would not allow a private investigator or our families to look at the records or files. I feel like our hands are tied when it comes to gaining new information....
What do you think about this law?

 

[Hurricane]

Yes, if any of you people on this website could help us out with understanding this law it would be greatly appreciated. I have talked with the investigator regarding the files and he says that they would not allow a private investigator or our families to look at the records or files. I feel like our hands are tied when it comes to gaining new information....
What do you think about this law?

The FOIA applies to the records of federal agencies only. It does not apply to local or state governments or agencies, court records, etc. The FBI records should be available but you must request them using the proper filiing forms available from the internet. If you don't jump thru all of the necessary hoops they can ignore your request, so be sure that you apply appropriately. And remember federal agencies can charge you a fee per page if they choose to do so.

Some states have open records laws as well but they vary and I'm not sure what NM's might be. If NM has an appropriate open records law but considers this case to still be an open investigation, no matter how cold or inactive then it is unlikely that you will be able to obtain any LE records. I wouldn't hold out hope of getting ECSO's records.

Hope this helps.

 

[Sunshine 1950]

The FOIA applies to the records of federal agencies only. It does not apply to local or state governments or agencies, court records, etc. The FBI records should be available but you must request them using the proper filiing forms available from the internet. If you don't jump thru all of the necessary hoops they can ignore your request, so be sure that you apply appropriately. And remember federal agencies can charge you a fee per page if they choose to do so.

Some states have open records laws as well but they vary and I'm not sure what NM's might be. If NM has an appropriate open records law but considers this case to still be an open investigation, no matter how cold or inactive then it is unlikely that you will be able to obtain any LE records. I wouldn't hold out hope of getting ECSO's records.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Hurricane. Your information does help. The FBI is where we are going to go to first. We will look for those forms on the FBI site. I know that the ECSO isn't going to allow me to look at the records or files. What I have is probably all I'm going to get. But I didn't really expect them to help me out. Sometimes I think they allowed this case to be re-opened in order to keep us from finding out some critical informaion. Maybe I'm being paranoid becauses of this statement but that is the way they have made me feel towards them. Again thanks for all the help you have given us....Anne

 

[Hurricane]

I haven't taken the time to read it, but here it is:

http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/New_Mexico_FOIA_procedures

 

[Sunshine 1950]

I haven't taken the time to read it, but here it is:

http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/New_Mexico_FOIA_procedures

Thanks Hurricane. I will read all of this information and hopefully be able to use it!
You always help me out.....:dance:

 

[Jan1966]

Thanks Hurricane! That is exactly what I thought. It would seem to me that the FBI files would mirror the ECSO files but then again they don't play by the same rules in Carlsbad as the rest of the country. I have also been trying to verify the quote by Paul Harvey "If you want to get by with murder go to Carlsbad, NM" I haven't been able to do that if anyone can verify it please do. I will check the NM statutes on freedom of information even though I believe you are right and the only way we are going to get those files is.....well, does anyone know a cat burglar? (just kidding, for any LE people reading)

 

[Jan1966]

Also, why would a case still be open if the statute of limitations has run out??? Who decides to open or close a case??? Wouldn't the DA's decide that?

 

[justthinkin]

There is no statute of limitations on murder in any state. Someone is being untruthful when they say there is or was.

 

[Sunshine 1950]

There is no statute of limitations on murder in any state. Someone is being untruthful when they say there is or was.

The New Mexico State Police told me that personally about two weeks ago. He said since the murders took place in 1961, that they would have to go by the statue of limitations of that time. In 1961, the statue of limitations for murder was 10 years in New Mexico.
I just couldn't believe it myself.
Do you know how we could really find that out?

 

[justthinkin]

Yes I do. Check your email in a sec.

 

[justthinkin]

I just find that unbelievable, 10 years for murder? That was an open invitation for the scum of the earth to commit murder in New Mexico.

 

[Sunshine 1950]

I just find that unbelievable, 10 years for murder? That was an open invitation for the scum of the earth to commit murder in New Mexico.

Isn't that the truth. I really believe New Mexico is still a lawless state even now.

 

[Hurricane]

The New Mexico State Police told me that personally about two weeks ago. He said since the murders took place in 1961, that they would have to go by the statue of limitations of that time. In 1961, the statue of limitations for murder was 10 years in New Mexico.
I just couldn't believe it myself.
Do you know how we could really find that out?

Are you sure that he wasn't saying that the case would have to proceed and be prosecuted under the evidentiary rules and sentencing guidelines of 1961? I have never heard of murder in any degree having a statute of limitations anywhere, at anytime.

 

[Hurricane]

Thanks Hurricane! That is exactly what I thought. It would seem to me that the FBI files would mirror the ECSO files but then again they don't play by the same rules in Carlsbad as the rest of the country. I have also been trying to verify the quote by Paul Harvey "If you want to get by with murder go to Carlsbad, NM" I haven't been able to do that if anyone can verify it please do. I will check the NM statutes on freedom of information even though I believe you are right and the only way we are going to get those files is.....well, does anyone know a cat burglar? (just kidding, for any LE people reading)

I don't think that the FBI's case file will mirror ECSO's or NMSP's file. The FBI's will only document what their local office did when they were consulted early in the investigation. Once a determination was made that no federal crime had been committed they would have dropped out of the case and closed their file, I think. Just my opinion.

 

[Jan1966]

I couldn't believe the statute of limitations either but it seems that the law wasn't changed until 1963 regarding statute on murder, rape etc. The only exception was if the perp fled the state to avoid prosecution. The 1963 law did not apply to crimes prior to that date as far as I can tell. I wish I was wrong, if someone finds out different please let me know. Again, if the state police stated that the statute of limitations had expired, why is the case still open? Is it to keep the files and deceptions under the control of ECSO?
Hurricane, thank you! Actually the original investigation and evidence I believe is what is needed. I think Sunshine has alot about the re-opening but then we don't know that for sure. I do know that some people that contacted Estrada weren't mentioned to Sunshine and that Sillas doesn't seem interested in the people who are contacting him now.

 

[Sunshine 1950]

Are you sure that he wasn't saying that the case would have to proceed and be prosecuted under the evidentiary rules and sentencing guidelines of 1961? I have never heard of murder in any degree having a statute of limitations anywhere, at anytime.

He didn't say what you have stated...maybe I was just so shocked I wasn't listening past the statute of limitations words. He just said that the statute of limitations had run out on this case. That they couldn't prosecute anyone for the murders now...unless they were leaving the state....whatever that means, I'm sure you probably have it correct Hurricane.

 

[Hurricane]

I couldn't believe the statute of limitations either but it seems that the law wasn't changed until 1963 regarding statute on murder, rape etc. The only exception was if the perp fled the state to avoid prosecution. The 1963 law did not apply to crimes prior to that date as far as I can tell. I wish I was wrong, if someone finds out different please let me know. Again, if the state police stated that the statute of limitations had expired, why is the case still open? Is it to keep the files and deceptions under the control of ECSO?
Hurricane, thank you! Actually the original investigation and evidence I believe is what is needed. I think Sunshine has alot about the re-opening but then we don't know that for sure. I do know that some people that contacted Estrada weren't mentioned to Sunshine and that Sillas doesn't seem interested in the people who are contacting him now.

Did you see this 1963 law in writing somewhere? If so can you post a link or something; quote a source? How did you come about this information?

 

[Hurricane]

He didn't say what you have stated...maybe I was just so shocked I wasn't listening past the statute of limitations words. He just said that the statute of limitations had run out on this case. That they couldn't prosecute anyone for the murders now...unless they were leaving the state....whatever that means, I'm sure you probably have it correct Hurricane.

I would be shocked if NM had time limitations on filing murder charges in 1961. If a suspect was wanted for questioning and fled the state then that would make it a federal case and it would then fall under the jurisdiction of the FBI. And we know that a murder charge at the federal level doesn’t have time limits. If they knew that there was a statute of limitations problem in prosecuting this case then why have Estrada re-open the case to begin with?

Remember when Michael Skakel, relative of the Kennedy’s was finally charged with the murder of Martha Moxley? His defense attorney argued that Skakel should be tried as if he were a juvenile in a juvenile court of law, and if convicted he should be sentenced as a juvenile because he was a juvenile at the time of the Moxley murder. Those are evidentiary rules and guidelines for sentencing. Fortunately in that case the judge did not allow it.