No intruder?

[MurriFlower]

I want to believe it was the flashlight, but with the flashlight comes a number of questions that I have:

1. If the flashlight was used, why? They usually kept it downstairs. If it was an accident, what would have even caused the flashlight to be in the scene?

2. The green garland found in JBRs hair gives me the belief that she was already knocked out and then brought down the stairs. Why would the flashlight have been brought upstairs by the parents when they could turn the lights on and off as they wished because the crime had not been committed yet.

I keep going between IDI and RDI. In my heart I feel like the Ramseys did do it, but it's hard because if you look at the evidence one way, and intruder did it, any other way you look at it, it looks like the Ramseys did it and are covering it up.

I would like to know what you guys think about the location of the flashlight and why it would be brought upstairs by the parents (if it is the head blow weapon).

You are new, but at least you're thinking kc, because those are good questions.

The flashlight has not been established to have actually belonged to the Rs. IMO it belonged to the IDI and was used to see where he was going, not to bash JBR. It wasn't needed in the basement, because he was able to turn on the lights.

It's quite weird for us to imagine what happened after the murder. The Rs never returned to their house. If they had, I can imagine they would have just gone to where their flashlight was kept and say, "no, it's not ours, because it's still here in the drawer" and we wouldn't be discussing it. There was a lot of things they were shown photos of (and some not too clear apparently) and were asked to identify them or explain something. When shown the photo of the flashlight, JR said it looked like his but it was a lot dirtier, so we can't establish if it actually was his and had been borrowed and used before being returned (assuming LHP or someone else who had regular access was involved) or was just similar to his.

 

[MurriFlower]

According to the Ramseys they were all in bed and asleep by ten pm. Now, why would lights be on in the house and don't you think it may have occurred to them that their neighbors might remember lights being on after midnight? If RDI, lights had to be out, period. Yes, they would need a flashlight to maneuver that house as well as find the items they used in the staging. Also, lights being out doesn't point any more toward intruder than Ramsey. Remember, intruder brought everything he needed with him, except of course, a flashlight (silly intruder had to use the Ramseys).

I turn lights on every time I get up at night. I'm sure most people do. I can't imagine the neighbours would find that strange, because they most likely do it themseves. On the other hand, someone DID comment on what appeared to have been a flashlight seen in the kitchen, because that would have been odd. So again, the R's are attributed with amazing foresight by RDI, anticipating what the neighbours might think, but these very actions bring more suspicion on them not less.

So the simplest answer is that it was an IDI. The flashlight was most likely brought in by them as well.

 

[Agatha_C]

There was no intruder...

As I am sure you all know, mental illness runs in families and IMO, more then a little in the Paugh clan. Poor BR, was last years cast off, the forgotten one. He played video games probably more then he should have. A lonely child, full of jealousy and rage, fueled on by violent video games (which can and has triggered violent behavior and rage attacks) some of these games are even sexual and included at the time rape (pc games were the worst in the 90's). I think his behavior had been leading up to the psychotic episode of 12/25/96, the molestation that increased, the physical abuse on at least two known occasions. IMO he waits until his parents are in bed, he leads JBR to the basement with the flashlight ties her in a chair and the rest I choose not to imagine.....

 

[Agatha_C]

Oh, sorry forgot the stop off for tea and pineapple... Yikes

 

[joeskidbeck]

BR made some statements that conflicted with his parents' versions: he said his sister walked into the house carrying presents. His parents said she was asleep and was carried in. BR said he owned a pair of Hi-Tec shoes. His parents said he did not.
JB had the pineapple in her system because she DID eat it that night, probably right after she got home around 10 pm. The TOD (according to her stage of rigor mortis) was estimated to be approx. 12 midnight-1 am. That places the pineapple exactly where it should be if it were eaten 2 hours before death.
There are three items that are among the main possibilities to have been used to bludgeon JB. The flashlight is #1 on my list, because of the suspicious way it was wiped down (the batteries were taken out and wiped clean). But there was also a bat and any number of golf clubs that could have been used. A fireplace tool is shown on the floor of the WC in some photos. It is a log grabber, specifically. I don't know if any of these items were ever tested for traces of JB's hair or skin cells, or if any of these other than the flashlight were tested for prints.

BBM
DeeDee, I know this doesn't change the outcome of any part of your post (because I agree with it, mostly), but I think she ate the pineapple much closer to the time she was killed. I came to this conclusion after reading the posts on FFJ from the guy who has been doing these kinds of tests for a lot of years. According to him, the pineapple could have been eaten as late as 30 minutes before her death. I think this also fits our theories better as something happened after JB got out of bed to eat this pineapple. Just spitballing here, but what if she was molested that night after she went to bed and became upset and in order to calm her, whoever did the molesting took her downstairs and fixed her the pineapple (and possibly to talk her out of telling about it). It would seem to me that this person also sat and drank the glass of tea while she ate. It's possible that something happened then that created the whole fiasco. I don't believe in my heart that Patsy fixed the pineapple, I believe it was John. Patsy may have gotten up at this time to see what was going on, realizes that JonBenet has been very upset about something and that could be when the rage set in. It's an easy step from there to her trying to hit the other person (here is why I believe the molester was John) over the head with the flashlight that just happened to be lying on the counter, missing him and hitting JB. I know there are lot's of theorizing in these statements, but I don't think we'll ever get to the truth unless we think of every possible scenario. And you know what? It's quite possible that Burke had told his mother that John had been "touching" JB. Could be the reason she got out of bed, to find out why John had gotten out of bed. I firmly believe that Patsy was supicious of abuse, maybe not who, but definately by someone.

 

[UKGuy]

There was no intruder...

As I am sure you all know, mental illness runs in families and IMO, more then a little in the Paugh clan. Poor BR, was last years cast off, the forgotten one. He played video games probably more then he should have. A lonely child, full of jealousy and rage, fueled on by violent video games (which can and has triggered violent behavior and rage attacks) some of these games are even sexual and included at the time rape (pc games were the worst in the 90's). I think his behavior had been leading up to the psychotic episode of 12/25/96, the molestation that increased, the physical abuse on at least two known occasions. IMO he waits until his parents are in bed, he leads JBR to the basement with the flashlight ties her in a chair and the rest I choose not to imagine.....

Agatha_C,

Why must do this? JonBenet willingly shared his bed and room.

.

 

[UKGuy]

I turn lights on every time I get up at night. I'm sure most people do. I can't imagine the neighbours would find that strange, because they most likely do it themseves. On the other hand, someone DID comment on what appeared to have been a flashlight seen in the kitchen, because that would have been odd. So again, the R's are attributed with amazing foresight by RDI, anticipating what the neighbours might think, but these very actions bring more suspicion on them not less.

So the simplest answer is that it was an IDI. The flashlight was most likely brought in by them as well.

MurriFlower,
The simple answer may not be the correct one though. If you reckon the intruder brought the flashlight with him, which of course, is an untested IDI factoid, then why does the intruder choose to leave it and it alone? Whilst removing the duct tape and cord etc. We know the intruder left it behind deliberately , since he took the time to wipe it clean, inside and out.

So how does the IDI theory explain the intruders actions wrt the flashlight?

The real reason the flashlight will have been wiped clean is because it came in contact with JonBenet either used as a blunt instrument or was contaminated with her blood or hair etc. That is the stager's hands were likely covered in JonBenet's forensic traces.

We have still to hear the IDI explanation as to why the intruder staged a crime-scene in the wine-cellar?

I'm all ears?


.

 

[MurriFlower]

MurriFlower,
The simple answer may not be the correct one though. If you reckon the intruder brought the flashlight with him, which of course, is an untested IDI factoid, then why does the intruder choose to leave it and it alone?

Whilst removing the duct tape and cord etc. We know the intruder left it behind deliberately , since he took the time to wipe it clean, inside and out.

So how does the IDI theory explain the intruders actions wrt the flashlight?

All good questions Ukguy. I'm thinking the flashlight wasn't small enough to go in a pocket, so it had to be put down. It was simply forgotten. Someone wiped the batteries (or so we are led to believe), I'm not sure about the outside, but we'll just have to assume that happened too, so this implies forethought.

Here's a question for you Uk. IF it belonged to the Rs and was used during the murder of their child, why would they wipe it inside and out AND THEN LEAVE IT ON THE BENCH?? The simple thing would have been to replace it in the drawer and no one would have any reason to suspect it of being involved in the crime at all.

The real reason the flashlight will have been wiped clean is because it came in contact with JonBenet either used as a blunt instrument or was contaminated with her blood or hair etc. That is the stager's hands were likely covered in JonBenet's forensic traces.

We actually have no evidence that it was used to bash her, it is just an RDI theory.

We have still to hear the IDI explanation as to why the intruder staged a crime-scene in the wine-cellar?

I'm all ears?

As far as I can see, there was no staged crime-scene in the wine cellar. This is where her body was left, but I can see no evidence of staging, unless you are talking about her being wiped, redressed and wrapped in a blanket?

 

[Peepers]

Maybe the crime scene wasnt staged. Maybe there was an intruder and he was just that nuts. So nuts that we cant make sense of all that took place.

just sayin.

 

[UKGuy]

All good questions Ukguy. I'm thinking the flashlight wasn't small enough to go in a pocket, so it had to be put down. It was simply forgotten. Someone wiped the batteries (or so we are led to believe), I'm not sure about the outside, but we'll just have to assume that happened too, so this implies forethought.

Here's a question for you Uk. IF it belonged to the Rs and was used during the murder of their child, why would they wipe it inside and out AND THEN LEAVE IT ON THE BENCH?? The simple thing would have been to replace it in the drawer and no one would have any reason to suspect it of being involved in the crime at all.



We actually have no evidence that it was used to bash her, it is just an RDI theory.



As far as I can see, there was no staged crime-scene in the wine cellar. This is where her body was left, but I can see no evidence of staging, unless you are talking about her being wiped, redressed and wrapped in a blanket?

MurriFlower,

We actually have no evidence that it was used to bash her, it is just an RDI theory.

This is your standard absence of evidence reply. If you read my post carefully I never said it was used to bash her, simply that the intruders hands must be covered in JonBenet's forensic traces. Except when he pulls down her longjohns only leaving touch-dna and not any blood, fluids, hairs from JonBenet etc?

As far as I can see, there was no staged crime-scene in the wine cellar. This is where her body was left, but I can see no evidence of staging, unless you are talking about her being wiped, redressed and wrapped in a blanket?

absence of evidence again? Try seeing farther ... the ligature was non-functional, with JonBenet's hair entwined into the knotting its use would have meant tearing JonBenet's hair from her hair. This did not occur! Hence its a staged crime-scene thats before we get into the size12's.

Because the IDI do not answer these questions about the forensic evidence or come up with ad-hoc answers, is why the IDI theories are incoherent.

Here's a question for you Uk. IF it belonged to the Rs and was used during the murder of their child, why would they wipe it inside and out AND THEN LEAVE IT ON THE BENCH?? The simple thing would have been to replace it in the drawer and no one would have any reason to suspect it of being involved in the crime at all.

mmm I thought the deal was I'll explain how the evidence fits my theory if you explain yours?

The flashlight had to be cleaned to remove any forensic evidence transferred from the person who staged the wine-cellar crime-scene!


.

 

[MurriFlower]

MurriFlower,


The flashlight had to be cleaned to remove any forensic evidence transferred from the person who staged the wine-cellar crime-scene!

It was thoroughly cleaned inside and out by the Rs after it being used in conjunction with the crime and then it was left on the kitchen bench rather than being returned to it's usual place -- why??

 

[DeeDee249]

I want to believe it was the flashlight, but with the flashlight comes a number of questions that I have:

1. If the flashlight was used, why? They usually kept it downstairs. If it was an accident, what would have even caused the flashlight to be in the scene?

2. The green garland found in JBRs hair gives me the belief that she was already knocked out and then brought down the stairs. Why would the flashlight have been brought upstairs by the parents when they could turn the lights on and off as they wished because the crime had not been committed yet.

I keep going between IDI and RDI. In my heart I feel like the Ramseys did do it, but it's hard because if you look at the evidence one way, and intruder did it, any other way you look at it, it looks like the Ramseys did it and are covering it up.

I would like to know what you guys think about the location of the flashlight and why it would be brought upstairs by the parents (if it is the head blow weapon).

We have no proof that the green garland in JB's hair came from the staircase. The wineceller was used to Christmas decorations, including artificial trees, and in addition there is an artificial decoration hanging on the wall right next to the wineceller door. There were likely lots of artificial needles on the basement floor, and the rest of the house, too. There WAS a way to arrow it down, unfortunately the proper tests were not done. Just as with the tape, there would have been a way to test the needles in her hair to see if they matched the needles on the garland on the stairs. This was not done.
The flashlight was kept in a drawer off the kitchen, by Patsy's own admission in her interviews. If it was used in the basement, as I believe it was, it brought upstairs because that is where it belonged, it was needed to walk upstairs in the dark (though the wineceller had no windows, the rest of the basement did and neighbors may have noticed basement lights on at the time JB was thought to have died) , and because the parents did not wish to be seen walking around the house in an agitated state. The lights were off in the house and a neighbor reported seeing "strange moving lights" in the kitchen. So the Rs were correct to assume people might be still awake and observant.

 

[MurriFlower]

We have no proof that the green garland in JB's hair came from the staircase. The wineceller was used to Christmas decorations, including artificial trees, and in addition there is an artificial decoration hanging on the wall right next to the wineceller door. There were likely lots of artificial needles on the basement floor, and the rest of the house, too. There WAS a way to arrow it down, unfortunately the proper tests were not done. Just as with the tape, there would have been a way to test the needles in her hair to see if they matched the needles on the garland on the stairs. This was not done.
The flashlight was kept in a drawer off the kitchen, by Patsy's own admission in her interviews. If it was used in the basement, as I believe it was, it brought upstairs because that is where it belonged, it was needed to walk upstairs in the dark (though the wineceller had no windows, the rest of the basement did and neighbors may have noticed basement lights on at the time JB was thought to have died) , and because the parents did not wish to be seen walking around the house in an agitated state. The lights were off in the house and a neighbor reported seeing "strange moving lights" in the kitchen. So the Rs were correct to assume people might be still awake and observant.

I think the basement lights were still on when the cops arrived in the morning.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

As far as I can see, there was no staged crime-scene in the wine cellar. This is where her body was left, but I can see no evidence of staging, unless you are talking about her being wiped, redressed and wrapped in a blanket?

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon124.htm

How do we know she was wiped or redressed? Far as I know JR brought JBR upstairs clothed, and she went off to the coroner. The autopsy report stated nothing about wiping or redressing.

Instead the autopsy report describes almost twenty injuries separately. If this was staging it was very realistic. How did the stagers manage to produce petechial hemorrhaging on her eyelids and in muliple places of sizes large and small exactly at the neck ligature furrow?

 

[DeeDee249]

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon124.htm

How do we know she was wiped or redressed? Far as I know JR brought JBR upstairs clothed, and she went off to the coroner. The autopsy report stated nothing about wiping or redressing.

The coroner told those present at the autopsy that fibers found on her thighs and pubic area as well as JB's own blood (found when the area was swabbed) indicted she had been wiped down with a cloth. Don't play games- we ALL know he didn't write it in the report (like much else) but there were others present at the autopsy, including Arndt, who believed in Patsy's innocence. What reason would she have to make up a statement like that, and one so easily refuted by others who were there.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think the basement lights were still on when the cops arrived in the morning.

Means nothing. First of all, we have no proof this is the case. Even if it was, there is no way to prove the Rs weren't down there before Officer French arrived.

 

[MurriFlower]

Means nothing. First of all, we have no proof this is the case. Even if it was, there is no way to prove the Rs weren't down there before Officer French arrived.

Well, if you believe RDI, then it goes without saying that the Rs were down there, but according to you, they used a flashlight rather than turn on the lights. They'd hardly bother to use a flashlight (so the neighbours didn't get suss) then leave the lights on in the basement eh?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The coroner told those present at the autopsy that fibers found on her thighs and pubic area as well as JB's own blood (found when the area was swabbed) indicted she had been wiped down with a cloth. Don't play games- we ALL know he didn't write it in the report (like much else) but there were others present at the autopsy, including Arndt, who believed in Patsy's innocence. What reason would she have to make up a statement like that, and one so easily refuted by others who were there.

Is that the blood where they found the unknown male DNA?

Does "having been wiped by a cloth" automatically mean manually wiped? Where is the cloth?

"Numerous traces of a dark fiber..."

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jonaff5.htm

 

[DeeDee249]

Well, if you believe RDI, then it goes without saying that the Rs were down there, but according to you, they used a flashlight rather than turn on the lights. They'd hardly bother to use a flashlight (so the neighbours didn't get suss) then leave the lights on in the basement eh?

Right. During the commission of the crime. But who is to say they didn't go back down there after calling 911 that morning? And who is to say that Officer French is correct in his memory of the lights? After all, this is a man who couldn't figure out even to look UP at the wooden latch on the door that "wouldn't open".

 

[MurriFlower]

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon124.htm

How do we know she was wiped or redressed? Far as I know JR brought JBR upstairs clothed, and she went off to the coroner. The autopsy report stated nothing about wiping or redressing.

Instead the autopsy report describes almost twenty injuries separately. If this was staging it was very realistic. How did the stagers manage to produce petechial hemorrhaging on her eyelids and in muliple places of sizes large and small exactly at the neck ligature furrow?

Well if the autopsy report said she had been digitally penetrated, this is unlikely to have occurred while she had her clothing on. Granted they may have just been pulled down, so they needed to be re-arranged (redressed), she was wrapped in a blanket, the wiping part I can't confirm. I was responding to Ukguy stating there had been 'staging', which goes with his RDI theory not my IDI.