No intruder?

[UKGuy]

MF, you can't have it both ways. Patsy never lies and she turned in the other pairs, six years later, that she stated were in JB's drawer, but were NOT found there by BPD when they took every pair in her room into evidence. So, where were the rest of the pairs, that later got turned in? I would say that is a much more interesting question. Also, that night, since they were not in JB's drawer, where were they?? Patsy never lies, remember?

SunnieRN,

As usual IDI just make it up as they go along. no size-12's were discovered in the house, yet Patsy states clearly that they existed.

Patsy is lying big time, she has been caught out, she has nowhere to hide.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Well think on this SunnieRN. If BPD were not incompetent (and they DID in fact search for the panties) WHY would the Rs' have handed them over YEARS LATER if they were the killers? That is a much more interesting question.

MurriFlower,
Correct. So where were they?

And if the R's hand in size-12's, patently because they realize what a big mistake Patsy has made with her story regarding the size-12's. Why were they not in Jonbenet's underwear drawer as claimed by Patsy.

Any answers?



.

 

[UKGuy]

Of course the BP looked. How else would they know that 1. the panties had fecal staining and 2. they were all sized 4-6-8.
Unfortunately, we don't even know if ANYONE looked into those packages. But Patsy DID say (in one of her statements) that she had intended to put the panty set for Jenny in a package with other gifts. And she also said those gifts were in the basement.
I mentioned once before that it would have been helpful had LE actually taken those boxes into evidence or at least noted what was in there (including sizes). This way we would know if any of the opened boxes contained gifts that had been bought for Jenny. I can just see Patsy saying she "didn't remember buying that".....one MORE thing for the "intruder" to have brought in with him- gifts for a 12-year-old girl already wrapped in FAO paper...

DeeDee249,

My understanding is that they did. Hence the questions regarding the partially wrapped/opened boxes to both John and Patsy.

.

 

[DeeDee249]

my bold

So DD, just explain to me again, WHY they would have handed over the remaining panties years later IF THEY WERE THE MURDERERS???

The same reason they handed over their (alleged) clothing from that night. They substituted other garments for the original is one thought. Other than that, one reason for the panties at least, is that (although they KNEW LE wouldn't find any in her room because they weren't there to begin with or from the basement because they were removed by the Rs) by sending them along years later it was a jab at LE - a way of saying "look- they were there all along but you missed them".
Yet- ALL JB's panties were taken by LE into evidence. There was no laundry hamper in the home, so her drawer or her floor were the only locations they'd be.
Last, as UKGuy points out, Patsy said they were there and they were not. By sending them along later, she tries to make her case that she was telling the truth.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

My understanding is that they did. Hence the questions regarding the partially wrapped/opened boxes to both John and Patsy.

.

I know they questioned them about it. But they had photographs of the room. I'll go to ACR and see if I can find them on the evidence lists.

 

[otg]

Well think on this SunnieRN. If BPD were not incompetent (and they DID in fact search for the panties) WHY would the Rs' have handed them over YEARS LATER if they were the killers? That is a much more interesting question.

Just a thought here... Maybe they didn't find the rest of the package until John went to play golf for the first time since they moved to Atlanta?
.

 

[UKGuy]

I know they questioned them about it. But they had photographs of the room. I'll go to ACR and see if I can find them on the evidence lists.

DeeDee249,
For your delectation.

Ramsey warrant dated December 26, 1996
http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/09/29-2.html
This warrant itemises:
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (55KKY)
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (56KKY)
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (57KKY)

FAO Schwartz is a gift-wrapping service that was used by Patsy on her NY trip.

See in the wine-cellar the gift at bottom of photo in FAO Schwartz wrapping paper.

A fuller picture is:

You can see JonBenet on xmas-morning with a FAO Schwartz wrapped gift to her left.

Interviews about the partially wrapped presents.

June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane

0271
24 LOU SMIT: Okay. we'll get off that subject
25 for just a little while, may be I'll come back to

0272
1 it later. I'm going to just touch a little bit on
2 presents, okay?
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
4 LOU SMIT: And I wanted to do that and
5 kind
6 of lead into various photographs, okay? I've got
7 photographs of the wine cellar. And these were
8 taken during the course of the crime scene
9 investigation. And it shows various presents in
10 the wine cellar. And I just had a couple questions
11 on that.
12 It's 263, 264, 265, 266, 267 -- I'm sorry. We'll
13 eliminate those 266, 267 and 268. we'll just
14 concentrate on the first three. And we'll just
15 show that to the camera and that will make up
16 somewhat of an image. Do you have any comments
17 about that, or does anything that looks out of
18 place? Because you're the one that knows basically
19 your house.

0272
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had gotten a bunch
21 of gifts at FAO Swartz up in New York in early
22 December, some of which were for them were for
23 Burke's birthday, which was in January. She didn't
24 know they were in the closet exactly,

...

0273
13 LOU SMIT: You notice how the packages seem
14 to be partially opened. Can you explain this?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I can't.
16 LOU SMIT: So Patsy had gone there and
17 just kind looked to see what was (INAUDBILE)?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. (INAUDIBLE) I mean,
19 you can figure out what's in them. The cigar box
20 was sitting on a paint can, or something like
21 that. And I believe it shouldn't have.

June 1998 Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Thomas Haney and Trip DeMuth

0390
18 TOM HANEY: Okay. And on Christmas Eve, when
19 you went in there --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
21 TOM HANEY: -- this wasn't there?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
23 TOM HANEY: How about the blanket?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TRIP DEMUTH: If we could go back, kind of

0391
1 skipped over a couple of pictures here, 145.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: There is the bicycle.
3 TRIP DEMUTH: I have a question for you, 148
4 here.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: These were gifts I think I was
6 holding back for Burke's birthday.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: They are in the red and white
8 and yellow FAO Schwartz wrapping?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Now in 148 there is also this
11 white pocket, do you know what that is?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh, it looks like cotton.
13 I don't know.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. It is hard to sort of
15 figure out where all of these pictures are taken, but
16 there is another package over here.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: Does that look out of place or
19 in the proper place?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I had -- you know, I
21 stacked up some packages along there (inaudible).
22 Kicked (inaudible) or something. I kind of have it
23 backed up here.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. So the packages in 146,
25 it looks like it is out of place to you?

0392
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh. Yeah. See, that
2 looks -- the door would be here.
3 TRIP DEMUTH: It is hard.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: So that would be back in here
5 somewhere. I was right in front of the door.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: No. Here are the screens. You
7 see the screens over here, the small screens, so it is
8 more back in this.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I would tuck them
10 there.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: I guess the point is, there
12 wasn't one that was off by itself. They should have
13 all been together.
14 The location in picture 148 is the correct
15 place for all of the packages to have been?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
17 TOM HANEY: Before we go on, could we just
18 talk briefly about the packages, these were presents
19 for whom, the ones that were left in there?
0392
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe for, you know, I
21 held some back for Burke's birthday which is in
22 January.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
24 TOM HANEY: So that could have been that.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember what

0393
1 was in them.
2 TOM HANEY: Would any of these packages be
3 opened?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these
5 came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when
6 JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them
7 sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift
8 wrapping.
9 So like right here it looks like I kind of
10 peeled a little back to see what was in it because I
11 couldn't remember what was in them.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone
13 partially, that was --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done
15 that to peek to see what was in there.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
17 TOM HANEY: Where did you do the bulk of your
18 Christmas shopping, the items you put in there?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, all of this stuff right
20 here was from FAO Schwartz in New York. JonBenet got a
21 bicycle that year. I got a university bicycle, and she
22 got a twin doll which I mail ordered, and --
23 TOM HANEY: Did she get to ride her bike?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: She got to ride her bike.
25 TOM HANEY: Christmas day?

0394
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Out in the back driveway.
2 TOM HANEY: You don't remember the weather
3 that day, was --
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Sunny, nice.
5 TOM HANEY: So did she get much time on it?
6 Was it training wheel equipped or was she able to ride
7 a two wheeler by herself?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think it had training
9 wheels. I think it did.
10 TOM HANEY: Did she get much time on it?
11 Could you give us a glue.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No idea; riding out in the
13 back.
14 TOM HANEY: But she was able to handle it,
15 she didn't crash or anything?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

.

 

[DeeDee249]

Thanks, UKGuy. I went over to ACR and saw that there were several "partially unwrapped" boxes listed on the search warrants. I did recall Patsy's interviews where she spoke about the boxes. There has been no mention that I am aware of as to what was in those boxes. I suppose that is among the 90% of evidence that we have never been told about.

 

[Agatha_C]

Agatha_C,
The importance of the size-12's is that it is here in this interview that she contradicts herself, or plain speaking , she lies.

Patsy says she placed all the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear and that JonBenet dressed herself in those size-12's. Yet no other size-12's were ever discovered in the house, or in JonBenet's underwear drawer.

Partially opened, wine-cellar, gift, no gift, none of this matters its IDI spin. Its Patsy's lies that matter, her account is at variance with the facts.

IDI have no forensic evidence, that which they make claims for is invented e.g. the DNA, we say touch-dna, they cannot account for the underwear touch-dna, they have no source for its type: semen, blood, skin etc. Its just DNA!

So IDI make up stuff using the absence of evidence tactic, oh we have not seen that , oh that was not documented, so it cannot exist, but they do not apply their methods to their own theories, curious that.

.

I agree UK, I was just hoping to move team IDI on...lol... I know, what was I thinking??????

 

[Agatha_C]

MurriFlower,
Maybe he did , maybe it is written up in his accompanying notes, you just do not know.

Oh and you must stop talking to yourself in public.


.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[Toltec]

my big bold

"The coroner NOTED white cotton panties with pink rosebud print and elastic waistband that says "Wednesday". Though he did not note the size"


Why did the coroner not remark on the size? Because the size was not remarkable. There is no way Dr. Meyer would include Wednesday and KOREA details and exclude peculiar size 12-14 detail.

The long underwear and a pair of oversized floral panties with Wednesday printed on them were both stained by urine, and the panties had red stains in the crotch....Steve Thomas ITRMI page 46.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The long underwear and a pair of oversized floral panties with Wednesday printed on them were both stained by urine, and the panties had red stains in the crotch....Steve Thomas ITRMI page 46.

What RDI seems to want to show is that JBR was found with twice-size underwear that would fall off her. I think Dr. Meyer and Detective Ardnt are the appropriate sources for this information, dont you?

 

[Toltec]

I'd say that Dr. Meyer had no known bias and found nothing remarkable to report on the underwear. Therefore the underwear she was wearing was not peculiar. Lack of remark by Linda Ardnt corroborates.

Are you somehow privy to Linda Arndts police report on her Autopsy observations?

 

[MurriFlower]

MurriFlower,
Correct. So where were they?

And if the R's hand in size-12's, patently because they realize what a big mistake Patsy has made with her story regarding the size-12's. Why were they not in Jonbenet's underwear drawer as claimed by Patsy.

Any answers?

why were there not in the winecellar where you said there were?

Any answers?

 

[UKGuy]

why were there not in the winecellar where you said there were?

Any answers?

.
.

You answer a question with a question you call that debate?

.

why were there not in the winecellar where you said there were?

Any answers?

Yes, the intruder stole them, along with JonBenet's pink pajama bottoms, and her size-6 underwear.

.
.

 

[Agatha_C]

So thats why he left the tea, glass, pineapple and bowl behind, his hands were full making it impossible for him to carry more and get out of the window...

 

[txsvicki]

I think the panties are very important, and thought Patsy said that she bought two packages of the size 12 panties in NewYork, and let JonBenet have one of them. Those could have been put into her drawer and the other left down in the WC for the niece later on. Patsy seems to have been the type to shop a lot and put things places then forget about them for awhile. If she is telling the truth then it means that the package in the WC was stolen either by an intruder or someone with access to that home that thought Patsy might never miss them. Someone who regularly rifled through all the things and knew what was duplicates, what was never worn, wouldn't be missed, etc. As for panties being in the drawer of all sizes and stained shows that Patsy didn't regularly go through and discard outgrown things. Most people would get rid of stained toddler underwear and wouldn't have size 4 panties still around. If Patsy did, then she'd think nothing of telling JonBenet she could have the size 12 panties. IMO JonBenet should have been wearing size 8 panties. Somebody, including the Ramseys should have determined where the panties were and how many.

 

[Ames]

I will say it again...stay with me okay....the size of underwear that JB was found wearing has never ever changed....they were size 12-14. It always has been and always will be. The sizes found in her drawer...were 4-6....why is that so hard for you??? It's really not that difficult to understand...really.

I am sick today, so when I layed down to take a nap...it dawned on me that if you are not from this country, the sizing may be different where you live. When we say 12-14....or 12/14....that is actually what is written in the tag of the panties...it's not that we can't make up our mind. Same goes for 4-6, 6-8, 8-10, etc....that is exactly the way that it is written on the tag of the panties. Most of the time it is written like this...4/6, 6/8 though.

 

[RTC]

I dont care what size those undies were, PR could not account for the undies. She probably, maybe, cant remember Nothing, because she is a liar. The interviews are the smoking gun on this murder. It might have taken 14 years but it is all there.
Toltec, faithful, long time defender of JBR, Thankyou.
I now believe JBR was not killed in her bathroom, even though PR was messy I think she would have flushed the toliet had she seen it and picked up fecal stained undies? She had stuff soaking that she never got to because she was busy writing a ransom note. I am resolved that it wasnt planned because of Toltecs info on the bathroom. something happened unexpected, otherwise fecal stuff wouldnt fit into the picture! Even a crazy mother gone bad would flush the toliet and put soiled panties in sink, no? it is too dirty.PR did not take care of her baby, She probably smelled to high heaven when killed thus the need for the wipe down.

 

[MurriFlower]

.
.

You answer a question with a question you call that debate?

.



Yes, the intruder stole them, along with JonBenet's pink pajama bottoms, and her size-6 underwear.

.
.

There is no answer to your question as to where evidence went that we don't know was there in the first place.

I didn't say anything about the IDI stealing pink pyjama bottoms and size 6 underwear.

However, it looks as if the pj bottoms might be the pink item in the wine cellar with the white blanket.