NORTH KOREA - Otto Warmbier, 22, UV student, released from North Korea, June 2017, Deceased

[cujenn81]

I wonder why the parents chose not to have a full autopsy done?? I just think so much more would have been seen. Old injuries etc.

I initially thought this was such an odd decision for his family to make, but now that I've had time to really think about it... I think there could be a few plausible reasons for their request.

1) They didn't want or need to know what information might be revealed in the autopsy report. They already knew everything they needed to know -- their son was a happy and healthy young man when he left this country and he was nothing more than the shell of a tortured soul when he arrived back home 15 months later. They wanted to avoid being haunted with the finer details for the rest of their lives. (unfortunately, an overactive imagination will likely haunt them anyway.)

OR

2) The idea of someone cutting into his body and brain after it had already been thru so much pain and suffering was too much to bear.

 

[cujenn81]

I'm surprised the family could block an autopsy in this situation.

Here in the UK, where there is a suspicious death the coroner orders a full PM and it's carried out. The only exceptions are where there are religious factors (usually involving Muslims and Orthodox Jews) and an external and/or non-invasive examination is sufficient to satisfactorily determine the CoD. If a full PM needs to be carried out where a crime is known or suspected, then it is carried out regardless of the family's wishes. However, where there are religious sensitivies MRI scans and similar are now being used to avoid interfering with the body unless absolutely necessary.

I don't know if such a request would have been granted in any other situation, but this request was likely granted out of respect to his family and the unique circumstance surrounding his death.

 

[PrairieWind]

I initially thought this was such an odd decision for his family to make, but now that I've had time to really think about it... I think there could be a few plausible reasons for their request.

1) They didn't want or need to know what information might be revealed in the autopsy report. They already knew everything they needed to know -- their son was a happy and healthy young man when he left this country and he was nothing more than the shell of a tortured soul when he arrived back home 15 months later. They wanted to avoid being haunted with the finer details for the rest of their lives. (unfortunately, an overactive imagination will likely haunt them anyway.)

OR

2) The idea of someone cutting into his body and brain after it had already been thru so much pain and suffering was too much to bear.

These are good points that I think are likely. However, I also wonder if they weren't advised by physicians that, since Otto had been in this condition for over a year, and given the MRI results and blood work, that there was little or nothing additional that could be gleaned from a full autopsy. An autopsy would reveal the reason he finally died (which I believe they already knew) but not the cause of the injuries that left him so brain damaged. Given that advice, I would think it's simple to see why no autopsy was done. The doctors already knew all that could be known. We aren't trying to solve a murder mystery. We know he was likely tortured to death. Proving it won't put anyone in jail.

 

[jjenny]

We don't know that he was "tortured to death." There is no actual physical evidence he was tortured. His teeth, per the coroner, who consulted a forensic dentist, didn't show evidence of trauma. Family is Jewish, so my guess they didn't want autopsy for religious reasons. Whether autopsy would have been useful or not to figure out why he had his brain damage, is anybody's guess.

"...the fact that he has anoxic encephalopathy or brain damage caused by the lack of oxygen to the brain, we don't know what the root cause of that is.""
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...says-otto-warmbier-s-death-is-still-a-mystery

 

[PrairieWind]

The disparity about the teeth is strange. Not sure what to make of that.
In my personal opinion, there is no doubt he was tortured or mistreated in some fashion that led to this condition. I base this mostly off the fact that the explanation given by the North Koreans is widely disputed by other physicians. If botulism was the cause, i think they would have released him to US custody immediately instead of holding on to him for another year. But again, that is just my opinion.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Fred Warmbier, the father of Otto Warmbier, will attend the Olympics Opening Ceremonies as a guest of Vice President Mike Pence this week.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/nation/...cle_e04c382f-1bca-5140-b749-1e5562ed5062.html

 

[dotr]

Dec 20 2018
They said North Korea tortured and killed their son. Now they’re seeking over $1 billion: lawsuit
"A wrongful death lawsuit filed this year by the parents of U.S. college student Otto Warmbier against North Korea is now seeking more than $1 billion from the government the Warmbiers say tortured and killed their son."

"The Cincinnati Enquirer reports a motion filed in October in the lawsuit seeks $1.05 billion in punitive damages and about $46 million for the family’s suffering."

 

[dotr]

Dec 25 2018
North Korea must pay US$500M in Otto Warmbier’s death: U.S. judge
"WASHINGTON — A federal judge ordered North Korea to pay more than $500 million in a wrongful death suit filed by the parents of Otto Warmbier, an American college student who died shortly after being released from that country.

U.S. District Judge Beryl Howell harshly condemned North Korea for “barbaric mistreatment” of Warmbier in agreeing Monday with his family that the isolated nation should be held liable for his death last year. She awarded punitive damages and payments covering medical expenses, economic loss and pain and suffering to Fred and Cindy Warmbier, who alleged that their son had been held hostage and tortured."
“Before Otto travelled with a tour group on a five-day trip to North Korea, he was a healthy, athletic student of economics and business in his junior year at the University of Virginia, with ’big dreams’ and both the smarts and people skills to make him his high school class salutatorian, homecoming king, and prom king,” the judge wrote. “He was blind, deaf, and brain dead when North Korea turned him over to U.S. government officials for his final trip home.”

 

[cujenn81]

The Untold Story of Otto Warmbier, American Hostage

...really in-depth and informative.

 

[dotr]

What happened to Otto Warmbier in North Korea? | DW Documentary
Nov 27, 2020

 

[ontheclock]

Thank you so much for posting this video. Sad. Sorry for Otto (and all those who knew him).

 

[PrairieWind]

We will never know what happened to him.

 

[Tower]

We will never know what happened to him.

Very true, there is no way to know what caused the original brain injury.

This is a very old thread, and I know this is not a direct response to your comment, but I have experience regarding Otto’s teeth.

I have worked with hundreds of brain-injured patients and they can have abnormal tone in their jaw causing severe clenching and grinding. I have read extensively on Otto’s case and his father was very upset about his perceived proof that Otto was tortured by the condition of his teeth. With all respect to the family, there is really not a way to take pliers and move teeth around. The teeth could be painfully pulled out, but they can’t really be jumbled around.

The most likely explanation for the terrible condition of his teeth is the aggressive clenching and grinding that often occurs after brain injury. We can’t even easily open patients’ mouths to properly clean them. With all that clenching pressure, the teeth are deformed and made terribly crooked in a relatively short time, in the same way as teeth are straightened by the positive pressure of braces. This would explain the ME’s findings, as he would not report on terribly crooked teeth, only broken or missing teeth, even though Otto’s family knew his teeth had been nice and straight.

I do not deny torture took place. I think he could have been denied air (water boarded, asphyxiated) causing the original brain injury. I just do not think the family knew why his teeth would look awful by any other means than torture. With all respect to Otto’s family, teeth often look terrible in my patients with brain injury.

Rest gently Otto. This was a terribly tragic loss of a bright and wonderful man.

 

[PrairieWind]

Very true, there is no way to know what caused the original brain injury.

This is a very old thread, and I know this is not a direct response to your comment, but I have experience regarding Otto’s teeth.

I have worked with hundreds of brain-injured patients and they can have abnormal tone in their jaw causing severe clenching and grinding. I have read extensively on Otto’s case and his father was very upset about his perceived proof that Otto was tortured by the condition of his teeth. With all respect to the family, there is really not a way to take pliers and move teeth around. The teeth could be painfully pulled out, but they can’t really be jumbled around.

The most likely explanation for the terrible condition of his teeth is the aggressive clenching and grinding that often occurs after brain injury. We can’t even easily open patients’ mouths to properly clean them. With all that clenching pressure, the teeth are deformed and made terribly crooked in a relatively short time, in the same way as teeth are straightened by the positive pressure of braces. This would explain the ME’s findings, as he would not report on terribly crooked teeth, only broken or missing teeth, even though Otto’s family knew his teeth had been nice and straight.

I do not deny torture took place. I think he could have been denied air (water boarded, asphyxiated) causing the original brain injury. I just do not think the family knew why his teeth would look awful by any other means than torture. With all respect to Otto’s family, teeth often look terrible in my patients with brain injury.
Rest gently Otto. This was a terribly tragic loss of a bright and wonderful man.

That sounds reasonable. It seems odd to me that the North Koreans would have tortured him by pulling or breaking teeth since that would be easily seen as evidence of their torture. I agree they almost certainly did torture him, but was likely something that deprived him of air and it went wrong. They probably kept him alive to let other injuries, bruising heal, the turned him over. Why anyone would ever travel there as a tourist is beyond me. I love to travel and see new things too. But there are some places that should just be avoided for now.