GUILTY NV - Tammy Meyers, 44, fatally shot at her Las Vegas home, 12 Feb 2015 - #4

[Miss Muffet]

Hah! Cross-posting. Never mind. Still friends?

LMAO! Sometimes it takes a lot of POUNDING to get something into my head!

Of course, we're still friends! We never weren't!

 

[sonjay]

Here's a simple theory that I think accommodates the evidence as we know it:

EN and his Audi-driving friend are the drug bigwigs in the neighborhood. BM and KM have a beef with them - think they got ripped off in an earlier drug deal, maybe, or fighting over turf.

They set out in the green car, with gun, to go to the park/school to find EN and hash it out with him. EN spots them before they spot him, and he calls the Audi driver. Audi driver comes, picks up EN, BM sees EN get into the Audi and realizes EN is about to get away. He shouts something angrily, waves the gun out the window or points it at them, and the chase is on.

After they've been chased for a bit, EN says "*advertiser censored** this. I've got a gun. Stop here and I'll show them what's what." Audi stops, fires at Buick. BM panics, he didn't realize EN had his gun with him. Buick flees. Audi follows. Audi gets to cul de sac, I dunno who shot first but they're both still pissed and amped up from the chase and they both open fire. TM had run outside when she heard the Buick squeal to a stop, and got caught in the crossover. The end.

Of course, they realize they can't tell the police what happened, so the lies start immediately.

They protect EN as long as they could, and they're still protecting the Audi driver, because snitches get stitches, doncha know.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Here's a simple theory that I think accommodates the evidence as we know it.

I think though it may be drug-related and the Audi driver may be a higher level dealer, I don't think the Meyers realized EN was present until afterward. This event would have either have to have been made up or the Meyers would have to be actively conspiring with EN to keep him away from the police: "Robert Meyers also acknowledged going with two sons to Nowsch's home on Feb. 15 to speak with his mother, Kathleen Nowsch. Erich Nowsch wasn't home. Meyers said they wanted to know if social media accounts of Nowsch being involved in the shooting were true."
http://www.vagazette.com/chi-las-vegas-mom-shooting-20150226,0,3061719.story

 

[jayme1133]

Are we allowed to mention other Clark County cases on here?

 

[Miss Muffet]

Meyerses didn't know EN was involved until after the grapevine a few days later.

I don't think the Meyerses set out with ill intent that night anymore.


Here's my simple theory with preamble:

BM has a previous ongoing conflict with Audi Dude regarding illegal activity. EN is an associate of Audi Dude. Someone has threatened EN. Not necessarily BM. Maybe one of BM's friends. He's admittedly paranoid.

KM is out by herself. She's just joyriding. (I don't believe KM and BM hang out together. The age difference is too great.)

EN calls Audi Dude to pick him up. Tells him BM is stalking him. (EN can't see who is in the car and assumes it's BM.)

Audi Dude sees Buick on his way to pick up EN. He intends to straighten out BM. Gets out threatening to kill. Sees it's KM, not BM. He may be perfectly satisfied with threatening KM. Since he doesn't see her as a threat, he leaves to go pick up EN and take him somewhere.

KM knows who Audi Dude is and goes home terrified. She wakes BM because she knows about the bad blood between BM and Audi Dude. BM gets his gun and goes out by himself most likely. KM only goes along if Audi Dude doesn't normally drive the Audi and she needs to identify it.

BM finds Audi. Audi occupants see BM is in the car brandishing a gun. Audi takes off. Buick chases at high speeds. Audi gets far enough ahead to stop car and stand ground. EN shoots. BM doesn't shoot back because he's driving. He takes off without seeing EN and heads home.

BM gets home. Audi comes down the street. He shoots now because he's not hindered by driving. EN shoots back. (Maybe they all shoot at the same time.) TM comes running out of the house and is shot. (Her doing this makes it likely that KM did go along with BM to identify the Audi.)

KM and BM lie to LE to hide KM driving by herself, BM's association with the dark side of society, and most importantly because Audi dude is a big deal. They don't know EN was involved until they heard rumors on social media.

On a side note, isn't it interesting how rumors on social media can turn out to be true? Rhetorical.

 

[Miss Muffet]

To answer Jayme: No.

 

[PaperDoll]

If I was the local drug dealer in the park and I was involved in a car chase where threatening words/gestures had been exchanged, possibly been involved in illegal activity with these same people, ie: deal gone bad (just speculating), I would not ponder very long whether the person in the green car meant business with the gun or was just warning me that he had it. Being as I was involved in illegal activity, I would open fire and not call 911. Also, don't forget, who knows what type of product could have been in either car. Big disincentive to calling police. NOBODY wanted to call police. IMO.

Since no one wanted to call the police due to possible illegal activities, look where this mess ended up? A person is dead due to gun fire which means now the police (which they tried to avoid in the first place, is now involved).

 

[PaperDoll]

However the shooting by EN didn't begin when the Buick pointed/waved the gun, but only started after the Audi fled and was chased. I think a reasonable person could see it that they're about to be gunned down once someone let's you know they're armed and they're going to chase you down and not let you flee. Even if the Buick wasn't intentionally pointing/waving the gun at the car and EN just happened to see the gun by chance but did intentionally chase the Audi, I still can't see the first shooting as a criminal act by EN because EN's interpretation of an armed threat even if it wasn't intended isn't unreasonable.



That's the big problem for EN, but the Meyers have done much to bolster EN's defense. The Meyers have created a grey area for their timeline so EN can say he didn't choose to be driven to Mt Shasta and he only fired after he was fired upon. EN also has the advantage in that the defense can explain away prior statements because they're second-hand hearsay that didn't get the facts right. I think EN committed manslaughter as I believe the Meyers were in a panicked retreat after their intimidation plan backfired in a huge way, but I don't think it will be easy getting EN convicted for it.

At the 1st shooting the Audi took the first shots from my understanding. The Buick fled and went home with the Audi in pursuit, this is when the Audi should have gone home, too or stopped any further damage but instead they chased the Buick and took more shots. BM took shots, too and I believe he had a right at this point since he was shot at at the first scene. JMHO :blushing:

 

[sonjay]

I agree the Meyerses didn't know EN was involved until after the grapevine a few days later.

I don't think the Meyerses set out with ill intent that night anymore.


Here's my simple theory with preamble:

BM has a previous ongoing conflict with Audi Dude. EN is an associate of Audi Dude. Someone has threatened EN. Not necessarily BM. Maybe one of BM's friends. He's admittedly paranoid.

KM is out by herself. She's just joyriding. (I don't believe KM and BM hang out together. The age difference is too great.)

EN calls Audi Dude to pick him up. Tells him BM is stalking him. (EN can't see who is in the car and assumes it's BM.)

Audi Dude sees Buick on his way to pick up EN. He intends to straighten out BM. Gets out threatening to kill. Sees it's KM, not BM. He may be perfectly satisfied with threatening KM. Since he doesn't see her as a threat, he leaves to go pick up EN and take him somewhere.

KM knows who Audi Dude is and goes home terrified. She wakes BM because she knows about the bad blood between BM and Audi Dude. BM gets his gun and goes out by himself most likely. KM only goes along if Audi Dude doesn't normally drive the Audi and she needs to identify it.

BM finds Audi. Audi occupants see BM is in the car brandishing a gun. Audi takes off. Buick chases at high speeds. Audi gets far enough ahead to stop car and stand ground. EN shoots. BM doesn't shoot back because he's driving. He takes off without seeing EN and heads home.

BM gets home. Audi comes down the street. He shoots now because he's not hindered by driving. EN shoots back. TM comes running out of the house and is shot. (Her doing this makes it likely that KM did go along with BM to identify the Audi.)

KM and BM lie to LE to hide KM driving by herself, BM's association with the dark side of society, and most importantly because Audi dude is a big deal. They don't know EN was involved until they heard rumors on social media.

On a side note, isn't it interesting how rumors on social media can turn out to be true? Rhetorical.

It's got possibilities. A few comments:

This theory requires that KM went with BM. For two reasons:

Way upthread somewhere, we discussed the similarity between the route KM described during her alleged road rage incident, and the route BM described during his car chase. And you (I think it was you) very logically pointed out that they wouldn't have had time to coordinate a specific route like that in the short time they had to come up with their cover story. If KM is at home and BM is in the car by himself, this theory requires that they do exactly that. So KM had to be with BM while he was chasing the Audi.

Also, EN told his friends that he saw (and shot at) a person running running from car to house, and a person at the car. So there had to be two people in the car when they got back to the cul de sac. I almost feel like I should add "EN saw and shot at person at car and person running to house" to the narrative of known facts. Both of EN's friends reported that he told them that. They both remember it the same, so I'm confident he told them that. It's not likely something that he would lie about, so it's likely he was telling the truth. I have a high level of confidence in this as true, but I'm not quite totally certain.

Another observation: Would KM really be out joyriding by herself? At the exact place where the neighborhood drug dealers are known to hang out? I was a 15-year-old girl once, and I don't recall ever going joyriding by myself. Or any of my friends doing so. Kids generally go joyriding with other kids.

Audi dude: Jongepier? What does he drive, does anyone know?

 

[sonjay]

I think though it may be drug-related and the Audi driver may be a higher level dealer, I don't think the Meyers realized EN was present until afterward. This event would have either have to have been made up or the Meyers would have to be actively conspiring with EN to keep him away from the police: "Robert Meyers also acknowledged going with two sons to Nowsch's home on Feb. 15 to speak with his mother, Kathleen Nowsch. Erich Nowsch wasn't home. Meyers said they wanted to know if social media accounts of Nowsch being involved in the shooting were true."
http://www.vagazette.com/chi-las-vegas-mom-shooting-20150226,0,3061719.story

He went with two sons? BM & MM? I keep forgetting who the other son is.

Do we have any evidence other than RM saying so that the reason he went was to ask about the social media rumors?

 

[jayme1133]

Why are all these adult kids living at the Meyer's? Maybe just there because of B-day party? Makes me wonder if this family is enmeshed and very dysfunctional.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

At the 1st shooting the Audi took the first shots from my understanding. The Buick fled and went home with the Audi in pursuit, this is when the Audi should have gone home, too or stopped any further damage but instead they chased the Buick and took more shots. BM took shots, too and I believe he had a right at this point since he was shot at at the first scene. JMHO :blushing:

Yes, I'm saying those first shots from EN were justified. You don't have to have someone actually fire at you to be justified in shooting someone. If I wave or point a gun at you (or even if it reasonably looks like that's what I'm doing) then you run away and I chase you with my gun, you'd have a right to shoot me. I also believe BM's shots were justified for the same reason in that someone was chasing him with a gun as I think the retreat by the Buick and subsequent chase turned EN from being justified the first time to committing manslaughter the second time.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

He went with two sons? BM & MM? I keep forgetting who the other son is.
Do we have any evidence other than RM saying so that the reason he went was to ask about the social media rumors?

I believe we've only heard that from RM.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Why are all these adult kids living at the Meyer's? Maybe just there because of B-day party? Makes me wonder if this family is enmeshed and very dysfunctional.

I don't know that MM lives there, but it sounds like at the time these events occurred the Meyers' home first was only occupied by BM and then only occupied by KM where there were no guests or anything at the house and MM was away with his girlfriend.

 

[sonjay]

I believe we've only heard that from RM.

So he could have gone over there with the intention of threatening EN that he better keep his mouth shut about that night. Or to beat him up. Or to tell him to have the Audi driver contact RM. Or to pay what he owed EN, or to collect what EN owed him. Or to ask him for his recipe for bread pudding.

 

[Miss Muffet]

At the 1st shooting the Audi took the first shots from my understanding. The Buick fled and went home with the Audi in pursuit, this is when the Audi should have gone home, too or stopped any further damage but instead they chased the Buick and took more shots. BM took shots, too and I believe he had a right at this point since he was shot at at the first scene. JMHO :blushing:

I view the first shooting scene as the Audi standing its ground.

Way upthread somewhere, we discussed the similarity between the route KM described during her alleged road rage incident, and the route BM described during his car chase. And you (I think it was you) very logically pointed out that they wouldn't have had time to coordinate a specific route like that in the short time they had to come up with their cover story. If KM is at home and BM is in the car by himself, this theory requires that they do exactly that. So KM had to be with BM while he was chasing the Audi.

Agreed. KM had to go with BM. I included it as a possibility. Notice I "type out loud." LOL

Also, EN told his friends that he saw (and shot at) a person running running from car to house, and a person at the car. So there had to be two people in the car when they got back to the cul de sac. I almost feel like I should add "EN saw and shot at person at car and person running to house" to the narrative of known facts. Both of EN's friends reported that he told them that. They both remember it the same, so I'm confident he told them that. It's not likely something that he would lie about, so it's likely he was telling the truth. I have a high level of confidence in this as true, but I'm not quite totally certain.

I feel the same way. I was vague about what happened since both sides agree the Audi followed the Buick home and there was a shooting resulting in TM with a gunshot to the head. I can't even analyze that scene more since we don't know where TM's body was located.

Another observation: Would KM really be out joyriding by herself? At the exact place where the neighborhood drug dealers are known to hang out? I was a 15-year-old girl once, and I don't recall ever going joyriding by myself. Or any of my friends doing so. Kids generally go joyriding with other kids.

I was going to add the possibility she was making deliveries to people her age. Families I know with a sibling who is involved in illegal activity often have younger siblings friends calling. The two age groups don't often associate with each other. BM delivering to under aged kids is an added risk for him.

Is there a convenience store along the route? She could have gone out for cigarettes and drove around for the heck of it. She's 15 and has a car so she's going to drive around for the sake of doing it.

Or she could have driven home a friend who was at the party. Maybe TM was too drunk to drive her friend home. She might have driven around with her friend for a while before dropping her off. This is very innocent reason for her to be out (aside from not having a license). It could also explain EN thinking there was more than one kid in the car.

Audi dude: Jongepier? What does he drive, does anyone know?

It would be dumb to show up arguing outside police barricades if he was involved in the shooting that resulted in murder.

If he drove a silver car fitting the description, you'd think he would be arrested by now. The Audi could have been stolen. Police might already know that based on stolen car reports. That might be why the security camera video hasn't helped identify the driver.

What do we know about Jeremy Jongepier? I wonder what the social media of these people's friends is saying about the driver. It got things right about EN. I'm not asking anyone to post anything here. I just wish I knew what they were saying.

 

[Miss Muffet]

Why are all these adult kids living at the Meyer's? Maybe just there because of B-day party? Makes me wonder if this family is enmeshed and very dysfunctional.

It's possible some of them are attending college. .

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Is there a convenience store along the route? She could have gone out for cigarettes and drove around for the heck of it. She's 15 and has a car so she's going to drive around for the sake of doing it.

On the route that the Buick allegedly first encountered the Audi was going in the direction of a gas station/convenience store on the corner of Durango and Westcliff, which that could have been the original destination to explain why they were on Durango after having been out driving - whether TM was out giving a driving lesson or it was something else, the driver could have been going for gas and/or other stuff as that appears to be the closest place. On a dual scene scenario the Buick could have encountered the Audi on Durango and decided to go home to get a gun to chase the Audi, which would explain the route given in the Complaint.

 

[sonjay]

Agreed. KM had to go with BM. I included it as a possibility. Notice I "type out loud." LOL

Yes, I saw that you included it as a possibility. I was clarifying that under this theory, it wouldn't really be optional.

I feel the same way. I was vague about what happened since both sides agree the Audi followed the Buick home and there was a shooting resulting in TM with a gunshot to the head. I can't even analyze that scene more since we don't know where TM's body was located.

I wish we had a diagram of the scene at the cul de sac. Where was the Buick, and which way was it facing when the police got there? Where was TM's body? Where did BM say he was when the shooting started? We don't know any of that.

I was going to add the possibility she was making deliveries to people her age. Families I know with a sibling who is involved in illegal activity often have younger siblings friends calling. The two age groups don't often associate with each other. BM delivering to under aged kids is an added risk for him.

Is there a convenience store along the route? She could have gone out for cigarettes and drove around for the heck of it. She's 15 and has a car so she's going to drive around for the sake of doing it.

Or she could have driven home a friend who was at the party. Maybe TM was too drunk to drive her friend home. She might have driven around with her friend for a while before dropping her off. This is very innocent reason for her to be out (aside from not having a license). It could also explain EN thinking there was more than one kid in the car.

These are all possibilities that make more sense to me than her out joyriding by herself at that time of night.

It would be dumb to show up arguing outside police barricades if he was involved in the shooting that resulted in murder.

I agree, but many criminals are dumber than dumb.

If he drove a silver car fitting the description, you'd think he would be arrested by now. The Audi could have been stolen. Police might already know that based on stolen car reports. That might be why the security camera video hasn't helped identify the driver.

What do we know about Jeremy Jongepier? I wonder what the social media of these people's friends is saying about the driver. It got things right about EN. I'm not asking anyone to post anything here. I just wish I knew what they were saying.

Yeah, you'd think. But he could be driving a different car. The silver car could already have been through a chop-shop and its parts already sold on the streets in Mexico.

According to the reports, Jongepier was defending EN, and threatening a neighbor that he thought was responsible for EN's arrest. Threatened to come back for his family, in fact. That sounds a lot like the kinds of threats our Audi driver makes.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nned-19-year-old-said-buying-Xanax-years.html

The sketch isn't Jongepier any more than it's EN. Is the sketch just an imaginary person? Have the Meyerses perhaps admitted to police it's imaginary, and that's why police are no longer searching for the person in the sketch?

 

[Miss Muffet]

I don't know that MM lives there, but it sounds like at the time these events occurred the Meyers' home first was only occupied by BM and then only occupied by KM where there were no guests or anything at the house and MM was away with his girlfriend.

I believe we've only heard that from RM.

So he could have gone over there with the intention of threatening EN that he better keep his mouth shut about that night. Or to beat him up. Or to tell him to have the Audi driver contact RM. Or to pay what he owed EN, or to collect what EN owed him. Or to ask him for his recipe for bread pudding.

I believe it. It was too many days past the shooting for me to believe they knew it was EN all along. If they knew all along, they would have been knocking at EN's door sooner. Not knowing for certain he was the shooter makes it a less risky scenario for the Meyerses to go to his house. They already learned the hard way that going out brandishing guns can backfire.