GUILTY NV - Tammy Meyers, 44, fatally shot at her Las Vegas home, 12 Feb 2015 - #5

[jayme1133]

“I guess there was another incident a little while before this that some guy was cussing at her and calling her bad names because she was driving too slow. She was following the law. … He was going off. He was a gang member. She followed him home. She just wanted to know why, what did I do to deserve all this? Why were you calling me all those names? Why did you say all that stuff, and why were you trying to swerve into me? And the outcome was, this guy was a lot bigger than her."

Brandon---if you want to give people a good impression of your mother, you are doing a terrible job.

Brandon trying to set the record straight? He had 2 attorneys with him. What in the world were they thinking?

 

[BellaVita]

“I guess there was another incident a little while before this that some guy was cussing at her and calling her bad names because she was driving too slow. She was following the law. … He was going off. He was a gang member. She followed him home. She just wanted to know why, what did I do to deserve all this? Why were you calling me all those names? Why did you say all that stuff, and why were you trying to swerve into me? And the outcome was, this guy was a lot bigger than her."

Brandon---if you want to give people a good impression of your mother, you are doing a terrible job.

Well, here is another thought. If this really happened and the guy was a gang member, then maybe EN had heard about it. If EN recognized the Buick and saw a gun being pointed, based on past history, he may have thought the Buick would show up at his house? I still think this had something to do with the M's kids. I still keep going back to the statement-paraphrase here-those kids were after me and I got them. IF there were deals in the park with TM and EN-and I KNOW this is speculating, maybe the kids were mad about that and WERE out to get him. IDK. IMOO.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

It's a stretch to say he lied or withheld information. He was being asked how she would normally handle a situation. He said "most of the time."

How many times has TM been involved in a road rage where she called the police? That would certainly be a matter of public record that EN's defense can get while of the only two actual known road rage incidents we are aware of, she followed them both times. When you say someone calls the police, them calling police creates a record and it's not just something that can be a meaningless line in sworn testimony. If BM can only name road rage incidents where TM didn't call police and he knew of this other incident just prior, then most of the time she didn't. BM in one forum can't say she's the type of person to follow road ragers and in another forum say she's the type of person that calls the police on road ragers instead.

 

[sonjay]

Well, here is another thought. If this really happened and the guy was a gang member, then maybe EN had heard about it. If EN recognized the Buick and saw a gun being pointed, based on past history, he may have thought the Buick would show up at his house? I still think this had something to do with the M's kids. I still keep going back to the statement-paraphrase here-those kids were after me and I got them. IF there were deals in the park with TM and EN-and I KNOW this is speculating, maybe the kids were mad about that and WERE out to get him. IDK. IMOO.

They took BM's 9mm and went hunting in their green car. They were out to get somebody that night.

EN thought people were out to get him. A green car showed up and pointed a gun out the window at him and chased him.

It sure seems reasonable that he concluded that the green car was out to get him.

After he scared them away by firing his own gun, he was on his way home. But he saw that same green car drive to within a couple houses of his own house and turn down a side road. It sure seems reasonable that he concluded they might be planning to come to his house.

He had been threatened with a gun. He had waved his own car out the window, hoping it would scare off his attackers. It had no effect. He fled; they pursued. He fired to scare them away, and he tried to go home, but there were his attackers, right there on his street! It's not even safe for him to go home.

I still wonder how that night would have ended if EN hadn't had a gun of his own.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

And we already have plenty of evidence that BM makes things up to get the results he wants.

He neglected to mention to police the night of the shooting that he had gotten his gun and got into the car with his mother and went hunting for EN. His story to police that night was that he had been at home and went outside to return fire at the silver car as it sped away.

After he had to admit that he had participated in the vigilantism, he then neglected to mention that there was a prior shooting scene over on Villa Monterey. His story was that they found the silver car and then went home.

We know that BM lies. We don't know how much of what he has said is untrue. But we do know for sure that he has lied about some very big, important, crucial parts of this incident.

I might believe his story about the earlier road rage incident if that other guy and his wife come forward and confirm it.

It's many paper cuts. If BM was otherwise unimpeachable for having given consistent statements, this extra-judicial statement of his about a prior road rage wouldn't be a big deal. If however you show a pattern of misleading and untrue statements, then you create problems. What would otherwise be harmless itself, can be seen differently when taken in totality with other statements, such as running outside with a gun and withholding evidence from LE about EN.

 

[Miss Muffet]

How many times has TM been involved in a road rage where she called the police? That would certainly be a matter of public record that EN's defense can get while of the only two actual known road rage incidents we are aware of, she followed them both times. When you say someone calls the police, them calling police creates a record and it's not just something that can be a meaningless line in sworn testimony. If BM can only name road rage incidents where TM didn't call police and he knew of this other incident just prior, then most of the time she didn't. BM in one forum can't say she's the type of person to follow road ragers and in another forum say she's the type of person that calls the police on road ragers instead.

But he wasn't asked about road rage. He was asked how she would normally respond to confrontations. He said most of the time she'd call 911 OR get his father. Well, his father wasn't home. She got her son instead.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

But he wasn't asked about road rage. He was asked how she would normally respond to confrontations. He said most of the time she'd call 911 OR get his father. Well, his father wasn't home. She got her son instead.

Again that is a matter of public record as any calls to 911 about confrontations would be logged and recorded by LE. Any time you refer to the police - particularly calling them - that's something that can be proven or disproven. If there aren't records of TM calling LE over confrontations and there are at least two known confrontations that BM was aware of that she didn't, then she doesn't call LE over confrontations. Calling 911 creates a specific evidence unlike saying you speak to a spouse or neighbor, which if BM had just said that she'd speak to RM and left it at that there's no evidence like when you call LE.

 

[PaperDoll]

Actually, EN was pretty near his home. According to Mogg's testimony about his interview with EN, after the first shooting, EN pretty much freaked out when he saw the Buick pass so close to his own house:

"...he would have seen that car coming down from Cherry River onto Carmel Peak probably prior to or just as it turned into the Mount Shasta cul-de-sac. He said they continued westbound and he said that he couldn't believe they were driving past his house. His house is further to the west on Cherry River than Carmel Peak. So they turned around and they came back ...."

Then on the next page Mogg testified that EN said he thought the person running toward the house was going to get more guns, and that's why he started shooting.

Remember, this is someone who has already been chased by someone who had pointed a gun at him out the car window. They're only about 550 feet from his own house (by the roads, not the crow), and he thinks these are the people who had been threatening himself, his mother and his baby sister.

Mogg's testimony is somewhat confusing, but you might want to read it. It's on page 100.
http://www.mynews3.com/media/lib/166/1/8/3/183997e6-0122-44f7-99b5-c23203a0e717/030515Nowsch.pdf

EN "thought" they were getting more guns, he couldn't prove that they were, and again, he should have known who's house that was when he started shooting. He may not have been the best of friends with the Meyers, but if he was over there for dinner at some point wouldn't you think he knew who lived there? AND, if EN "thought" they were getting more guns, why hang around why not flee and go some place safer, or better yet, call the police. After all once you start taking matters into your own hands and using a deadly weapon on someone, you are inviting the police into the situation whether you want to or not.

 

[sonjay]

I have to delve into the alleged road rage incident more deeply. Get out your maps, folks.

In the arrest affidavit, KM said that when they left the school after her alleged driving lessons, they went south on Villa Monterey, then west on Alta to Durango, and north on Durango. (Durango is about half a mile west of Cimarron.)

As they traveled north on Durango, the road rage happened -- silver car sped up behind them, KM honked, silver car sped past then swerved in front of them.

They turned east onto Westcliff, then south on Cimarron. The silver car then passed them in the bike lane, spun sideways to block their path, and this is where the spiky-haired dude got out of the car and threatened mother and daughter.

Continuing with KM's arrest affidavit, they sped around the silver car and went home.

Their route looked something like this, according to KM:



In her GJ testimony, KM isn't quite as specific, and it's hard to follow what route she's actually describing, but it's very similar. Starting on pg. 13 of the GJ transcript, KM says they "went straight on Villa Monterey" and the DA confirms "Is that the way you would go to go home." She answers "Yeah."

Then she says "The car came speeding behind us....He swerved around us really fast and then I honked the horn." So far, there's nothing about turning onto Alta or Durango. It sounds like they're still on Villa Monterey.

After she honked, she continues, "We turned right and then then we went straight and then we turned right and he got, he turned with us but he swerved in the bus lane and he hit my side.... He drifted in front of us and then he got out."

So there was speeding and honking -- seems to have happend on Villa Monterey. Then a right turn and a right turn -- maybe they're on Cimarron now? Then the swerving (drifting) in front and the threat. Okay, threat is on Cimarron.

Then they went home, but there was no mention of the route they took.

Maybe that route looked something like this:

 

[PaperDoll]

Given that EN told the story to two friends who contacted police, and admitted it to the police, I think self-defense is pretty much the only option for the defense. His lawyer implied that self-defense is what the defense is going to be.

"The facts seem to point to self-defense in this situation," Claus told ABC News. "It seems to explain the facts we have in front of us more sensibly than any other explanation."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/road-rage-husband-details-story-shifted/story?id=29172065

They may go for self defense but I personally don't see this being self defense. First off EN maybe telling the truth but it's his perception only on what the Buick was doing in the park. We know the Buick didn't fire any weapons at that point and we also know that EN didn't call 911 for help, instead he called his friend for help and stayed in the very area he felt threatened in. Second, the Buick did follow the Audi so the Audi fired the first shots and the Buick, the Buick fled and went home with Audi in pursuit. Where is the self defense in that? The Buick fled the scene after knowing someone had a gun and wasn't afraid to use it. The Audi at that point MADE the decision to pursue further, again ASSUMING the people were going to get more guns. There is no proof of the Meyers getting more guns. The Buick, IMO, when they fled the 1st shooting scene didn't pass EN's house, they were close but that doesn't mean a thing since you have to go down Cherry River to get to the Meyers home.

 

[Miss Muffet]

Again that is a matter of public record as any calls to 911 about confrontations would be logged and recorded by LE. Any time you refer to the police - particularly calling them - that's something that can be proven or disproven. If there aren't records of TM calling LE over confrontations and there are at least two known confrontations that BM was aware of that she didn't, then she doesn't call LE over confrontations. Calling 911 creates a specific evidence unlike saying you speak to a spouse or neighbor, which if BM had just said that she'd speak to RM and left it at that there's no evidence like when you call LE.

You have no proof she hasn't ever called 911. And he did say 911 OR get his father. There would only need to be a few 911 calls made throughout his entire life for the statement to be true. And my goodness, they could have gone to different 911 call centers or police departments while they were traveling. It's a stretch to think the woman never dialed 911 in Brandon's entire life experience having her as a mother.

 

[sonjay]

BM, in the arrest affidavit, said he and his mom went south on Carmel Peak, west on Alta, north on Cimarron. At the intersection of Cimarron and Westcliff, TM pointed and said "it" happened here. This matches where KM said in the arrest affidavit that the original speeding up and horn honking happened there.

Then BM & TM travelled east on Westcliff, south on Buffalo. They turned west onto Ducharme, where they saw the silver car (or at least, a silver car) sitting at the Sam Jonas & Ducharme. They pulled up behind the silver car there, then chased/followed it west on Ducharme and south on Villa Monterey. The silver car drove south on Villa Monterey almost to Alta, then stopped. BM & TM went to just south of Cherry Road and stopped.

The silver car shot at them, they reversed and went west on Cherry River, south on Carmel Peak, and west on Mt. Shasta.

That route would look something like this:



I wonder why they would think that a silver car on Ducharme at Sam Jonas was the same one that allegedly road raged TM & KM over on Cimarron?

 

[SpanishInquisition]

EN "thought" they were getting more guns, he couldn't prove that they were

What EN thought is quite relevant for the same reason EN allegedly thought he wasn't shot at, which was why the prosecutor went out of the way to introduce that to the GJ. What someone thought during a homicide most of the time involves LE-involved shootings where LE shoots and kills someone who had a toy, cell phone, etc. that LE mistook for a gun as cops don't get sent away to prison for mistaking an unarmed suspect for an armed suspect because they couldn't prove they saw a real gun, but this applies just as well to non-LE shootings...and it cuts both ways. This is the actual jury instruction and this goes to show why the DA wanted to introduce EN thought he hadn't been shot at when he was shooting:

He is confronted by the appearance of imminent danger
which arouses in his mind an honest belief and fear that
he is about to be killed or suffer great bodily injury
and; he acts solely upon these appearances and his fear
and actual beliefs and; a reasonable person in a similar
situation would believe himself to be in like danger.
The killing is justified even if it develops afterward
that the person killing was mistaken about the extent of
danger.

If we just ignored what EN thought and only looked at the physical evidence, that would help rather than hinder EN.

 

[sonjay]

In his GJ testimony, I think BM described the same route as he did in the arrest affidavit. He confused things greatly with his "I can't remember the name of the street, I think it's Starboard or Starborn."

I think he means Sam Jonas. They're heading south on Buffalo, they turned right, they saw the silver car at Starboard/Starborn/Sam Jonas. They pulled up behind the silver car, and then they pursued it when it turned left (presumably onto Villa Monterey). When the silver car got near Alta, it stopped, they stopped, and the first shooting happened.

So "Starborn" or "Starboard" really has to be Sam Jonas. Funny that BM got it right in the arrest affidavit but not in the GJ.

And that means that he described the same route in both the arrest affidavit and in his GJ testimony.

KM said "it" happened on Cimarron near Westcliff -- referring to the speeding up and honking part of the road rage.

BM said that TM told him "it" happened on Cimarron near Westcliff.

Then they went east to Buffalo, south on Buffalo to Ducharme, and thought that was the same silver car sitting there on Ducharme at Sam Jonas.

I wonder why they would be so sure it was the same silver car that allegedly road raged TM & KM earlier? That allegedly happened way over on Cimarron.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

We know the Buick didn't fire any weapons at that point and we also know that EN didn't call 911 for help, instead he called his friend for help and stayed in the very area he felt threatened in.

That may have been what happened, but we don't know how long EN had actually been in the car by the time the Buick re-appeared nor do we know that EN ordered the driver to stay.

Second, the Buick did follow the Audi so the Audi fired the first shots and the Buick, the Buick fled and went home with Audi in pursuit. Where is the self defense in that? The Buick fled the scene after knowing someone had a gun and wasn't afraid to use it. The Audi at that point MADE the decision to pursue further, again ASSUMING the people were going to get more guns.

Per EN's confession the Buick and the Audi went two different ways with the extent to what EN told the driver was how to quickly get to EN's house. EN is not synonymous with the Audi as EN was not the driver, so we can't say we know EN ordered the Audi to keep driving past his home as nothing beyond that was admitted to with directing the driver where to go...it's not to say EN didn't direct the driver to keep going, just it can't be stated as a fact that he did.

There is no proof of the Meyers getting more guns.

There doesn't have to be. What matters is whether or not that was a reasonable assumption by EN, which I think it would matter a great deal if there was at least two people still in the car at the time BM was outside of the car as that was part of EN's confession that there were multiple people in the Buick while BM was outside.

 

[sonjay]

But he wasn't asked about road rage. He was asked how she would normally respond to confrontations. He said most of the time she'd call 911 OR get his father. Well, his father wasn't home. She got her son instead.

But calling 911 would be an appropriate response.

Getting her armed son was not.

 

[sonjay]

KM said "it" happened on Cimarron near Westcliff -- referring to the speeding up and honking part of the road rage.

BM said that TM told him "it" happened on Cimarron near Westcliff.

Cimarron looks to be all residential along the whole stretch between Alta & Westcliff. I wonder if LE got any 911 calls that night from anyone who lives along there -- maybe reporting an accident, a road rage, screeching tires, yelling, threats, etc.?

If there was a road rage that night, it's highly unlikely that the silver car TM & BM found on Ducharme at Sam Jonas was the same one that road raged TM & KM way over on Cimarron. (Or maybe even way over on Durango)

So yeah .... it seems likely to me that either they went all vigilante on the wrong silver car, or there was no road rage and they set out that night with a gun for some other reason. IMO, JMO, MOO and all that jazz.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

I wonder why they would be so sure it was the same silver car that allegedly road raged TM & KM earlier? That allegedly happened way over on Cimarron.

Also with the DA not having KM testify to seeing the alleged road rage car drive past Mt Shasta as was said in the complaint, the direction the car would have faced if it turned on Ducharme would have been eastbound rather than westbound. I also don't buy it given how that KM has now testified that TM was freaking out over someone in the area that TM and BM returned to.

 

[sonjay]

Also with the DA not having KM testify to seeing the alleged road rage car drive past Mt Shasta as was said in the complaint, the direction the car would have faced if it turned on Ducharme would have been eastbound rather than westbound. I also don't buy it given how that KM has now testified that TM was freaking out over someone in the area that TM and BM returned to.

KM had just testified that she knows EN — she identified him in a photograph.

Then she testified that she and her mom saw "a guy" walking back and forth. Nothing specific as to whether "the guy" was in the park, in the school parking lot, on the street, or what.

The DA did not ask her if she recognized "the guy" as EN. But he did ask her if she saw EN that evening while she was at the school, and her answer was "no."

So "the guy" they saw wasn't EN? I wonder what that's about.

Was there another guy there that night? Are we to believe that this other guy is the alleged road rager? Are we to believe that as soon as KM & TM switched seats and left the school, "the guy" jumped into his silver car, followed them, and road raged them?

Or is he just some random guy who has nothing to do with anything? Not EN, not the road rager, not the Audi driver. Just a guy. Maybe KM & TM had the same touch of paranoia that EN seems to have.

 

[sonjay]

From KM's GJ testimony:

Q. When you got home, do you recall your mother saying anything?
A. She said, "Go get your brother."
Q. And your brother meaning which brother?
A. Brandon.

How did KM know which brother TM meant? She's got 3 brothers. According to her own testimony, only one brother, Robert, lives in the Meyers house on Mt. Shasta.

Why would KM think TM meant Brandon? Or, how would she know that TM meant Brandon?