GUILTY NV - Tammy Meyers, 44, fatally shot at her Las Vegas home, 12 Feb 2015 - #5

[SpanishInquisition]

But how will KM explain how she knew which brother? Her story does not have RMJr in the car. He could have been in the house. Brandon doesn't even live there, according to KM -- so why would she think TM meant for her to get Brandon?

I don't know where MM lives. But I'm sure that I've read that his birthday celebration was "earlier that evening." When his girlfriend got the call about TM, she was home in bed, so either the birthday celebration was already over or it didn't include his girlfriend.

That leaves 3 brothers unaccounted for. So how did KM know that TM meant BM -- who, according to KM, doesn't even live there?

What I'm saying is that she knew it had to be BM since RM Jr was already in the car and MM was out with his girlfriend.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

If you are ref'ing to Schwarz (Sam?, private prac atty that MSM quoted) as atty and BM as his 'client' & key witness,
still not necessarily agreeing that theirs is an atty client relationship. Yes, MrM said he had hired an atty, b/c of all the "incorrect info" in MSM.
If MrM has in fact hired an atty, doubtful that the contract or letter of engagement states that atty is rep'ing the "M family."
My SWAG is that per letter of engagement or contract, atty is rep'ing
- MrM in public relations matters, or
- poss MrM re (fairy tale, imo) civil suit MrM thinks he'll bring against LE or DA, re "incorrect info" (maybe same as above PR issue), or
- BM alone in any poss crim matters, or
- KM alone re same, or
- MrM alone re same.
Many possible legal conflicts of interest among fam members if an atty reps "family" in anything past public relations matters.

And realistically, an atty cannot prevent client from yakking. Can advise not to, etc.
JM2cts and I may be wrong.

Yes, I was talking about the private lawyers, which under any scenario you put it I would have tried to end the interview. Not uttering a peep after it's claimed just recently TM was in another road rage incident where she chased down a gang member to the gang members home doesn't help any scenario. If they're just sitting around racking up billable hours while statements like this are being made, it doesn't help either PR or other possible criminal cases. If in fact those lawyers didn't represent BM and didn't have to listen to him, that would be all the more reason for them to then say this rumor was coming from him alone, etc because he couldn't make them shut up as they engaged in damage control fulfilling their legal contract. If this was RM hiring them on PR matters that really makes it inexcusable to say for instance that RM has never said that, etc...which RM himself has tried to downplay what TM did as a solitary mistake and this is contradicting his own PR that was free. RM was actually better talking about TM than BM is with lawyers present by now with the lawyers around the PR is that it's a pattern.

 

[PaperDoll]

EN was on his way home after he scared away his attackers at the first shooting scene. He was more than willing to let the matter drop.

But as the car he was riding in turned onto Cherry River, he saw the green car cruise to within a couple houses of his own house, and then turn down Carmel Peak when they saw the Audi. He feared they were coming after his family. He wanted to keep it away from his family — away from his mom and baby sister. So the Audi went on past EN's house; they were looking for the green car to try to keep it away from EN's house.

They saw the green car turn into Mt. Shasta, and they followed it, still attempting to keep the gunfire away from EN's house. BM opened fire, and EN returned fire.

BBM: Am I missing something, again Where does it say EN was on his way home? When I read Mogg's statement about the 1st shooting scene and the driving route, I got confused :blushing:. I drove that route and the way I see it, the Audi didn't take the same way as the Buick, and the Buick didn't pass EN's house to get home. When the Buick backed up, they headed West on Cherry River, then left of Carmel Peak then right on Mt. Shasta into their home. The Audi took Alta heading towards Cimarron, which is a longer way to get to EN's house. What he could have done in the 1st place was to take Alta, then make a right on Carmel Peak then left to Mt. Shasta which would put them just about the same time the Meyers were getting out of their car. When EN describes it it sounds like he saw the Buick drive past his house which doesn't make sense to me. I think what happened was the Audi was on Alta driving towards Cimarron and looked down Carmel Peak and saw the Buick driving down then turned into Mt. Shasta. EN tells the driver to turn around before actually making it to Cimarron, then they made the left onto Carmel Peak and left onto Mt. Shasta.

 

[sonjay]

What I'm saying is that she knew it had to be BM since RM Jr was already in the car and MM was out with his girlfriend.

Well, yes, if RMJr were already in the car, that would explain how KM knew that her mom meant for her to go get Brandon.

But, picture this: Put KM on the stand in court. Ask her how she knew which brother her mom meant. What's she going to say?

I know what she's not going to say. She's not going to say, "Robert was already in the car, so I knew she had to mean Brandon."

So what is she going to say?

Oh, and don't forget to ask her where Robert was while this was going on. Was he in the house? Did he see and hear her come in to get Brandon? Did he hear her tell Brandon that someone's trying to kill her and her mom? Did he think maybe he should go with them too?

What about granny? Did she see or hear any of this? Did granny notice BM coming into her room to get his gun from her drawers? Did he say anything, or did she ask anything, about why he was getting his gun?

And Brandon. What about that xbox game he was playing? Was that an online game, that he was playing with other people? What game, exactly, was he playing? Are there records of what time he started playing and stopped playing? Do those times match up with the other reported times of this incident?

More questions for Brandon: In his GJ testimony, he said he wasn't quite sure what his mom intended to do when she told him to get in the car and go with her. Did he ask her what she intended to do? If so, what was her response? If not, why not?

He said he had his gun in his lap — so even if she didn't specifically tell him to bring it, presumably TM knew he had his gun with him. Did she make any comment about him bringing his gun, or indicate what she expected or wanted him to do with it?

Was this a common occurrence, that his mom would want him to take his gun and go with her to look for road ragers or other people who had upset her? Had it ever happened before? How many times? Did she ever call the police, or did she always handle it herself? Did she always want Brandon to take his gun and go with her?

 

[jayme1133]

But how will KM explain how she knew which brother? Her story does not have RMJr in the car. He could have been in the house. Brandon doesn't even live there, according to KM -- so why would she think TM meant for her to get Brandon?

I don't know where MM lives. But I'm sure that I've read that his birthday celebration was "earlier that evening." When his girlfriend got the call about TM, she was home in bed, so either the birthday celebration was already over or it didn't include his girlfriend.

That leaves 3 brothers unaccounted for. So how did KM know that TM meant BM -- who, according to KM, doesn't even live there?

exactly what I have been trying to say...Wish we knew who was at B-day party and where it was? Were they all intoxicated when dad was out of town? was dad out of town, I can't find anything in Carlsbad that weekend?

:tantrum:

 

[SpanishInquisition]

BBM: Am I missing something, again Where does it say EN was on his way home? When I read Mogg's statement about the 1st shooting scene and the driving route, I got confused :blushing:. I drove that route and the way I see it, the Audi didn't take the same way as the Buick, and the Buick didn't pass EN's house to get home. When the Buick backed up, they headed West on Cherry River, then left of Carmel Peak then right on Mt. Shasta into their home. The Audi took Alta heading towards Cimarron, which is a longer way to get to EN's house. What he could have done in the 1st place was to take Alta, then make a right on Carmel Peak then left to Mt. Shasta which would put them just about the same time the Meyers were getting out of their car. When EN describes it it sounds like he saw the Buick drive past his house which doesn't make sense to me. I think what happened was the Audi was on Alta driving towards Cimarron and looked down Carmel Peak and saw the Buick driving down then turned into Mt. Shasta. EN tells the driver to turn around before actually making it to Cimarron, then they made the left onto Carmel Peak and left onto Mt. Shasta.

The extent of what we have from Mogg was that EN directed the Audi driver to his home:
[/QUOTE]He said they continued westbound and he
said that he couldn't believe they were driving past his
house. His house is further to the west on Cherry River
than Carmel Peak. So they turned around and they came
back and he said "I know a left turn, a shortcut to get
to my house," something to that effect.[/QUOTE]
The reason the driver did anything past EN's home is speculation - the speculation may be accurate, but it is still speculation and it can't necessarily be attributed to EN.

 

[Miss Muffet]

But calling 911 would be an appropriate response.

Getting her armed son was not.

That's irrelevant to the discussion about whether the article indicates he lied to the GJ.

 

[PaperDoll]

The extent of what we have from Mogg was that EN directed the Audi driver to his home:

He said they continued westbound and he
said that he couldn't believe they were driving past his
house. His house is further to the west on Cherry River
than Carmel Peak. So they turned around and they came
back and he said "I know a left turn, a shortcut to get
to my house," something to that effect.[/QUOTE]
The reason the driver did anything past EN's home is speculation - the speculation may be accurate, but it is still speculation and it can't necessarily be attributed to EN.[/QUOTE]

I wish we could hear the police recording when EN was being questioned.. IMO, and it's only my opinion :blushing: EN wasn't on his way home, didn't his mom kick him out that night? I'm sorry, I don't have a link to that I'm just going off memory here on what I read someone had said.

 

[SeeAlice]

I think we need a trial first before we can make that determination.

How quaint! Let me guess, are you a Baby Boomer? Educated in the prehistoric era when Civics and American Government were legally required to be taught to all students in elementary, middle and high school?

(If not, forgive me for thinking you are older than you are. GenX, maybe?)

 

[sonjay]

BBM: Am I missing something, again Where does it say EN was on his way home? When I read Mogg's statement about the 1st shooting scene and the driving route, I got confused :blushing:. I drove that route and the way I see it, the Audi didn't take the same way as the Buick, and the Buick didn't pass EN's house to get home. When the Buick backed up, they headed West on Cherry River, then left of Carmel Peak then right on Mt. Shasta into their home. The Audi took Alta heading towards Cimarron, which is a longer way to get to EN's house. What he could have done in the 1st place was to take Alta, then make a right on Carmel Peak then left to Mt. Shasta which would put them just about the same time the Meyers were getting out of their car. When EN describes it it sounds like he saw the Buick drive past his house which doesn't make sense to me. I think what happened was the Audi was on Alta driving towards Cimarron and looked down Carmel Peak and saw the Buick driving down then turned into Mt. Shasta. EN tells the driver to turn around before actually making it to Cimarron, then they made the left onto Carmel Peak and left onto Mt. Shasta.

BBM. I got a somewhat different impression from Mogg's testimony.

What I got was the Audi -- from its position facing southbound on Villa Monterey almost to Alta -- went west on Alta to Cimarron then north on Cimarron to Cherry River. They turned east onto Cherry River -- heading toward EN's home. I think this part is also what you believe.

EN's house is on Cherry River just 1 or 2 houses to the west of the western edge of the park. Carmel Peak goes south at that same western edge of the park, just a house or two east of EN's house.

Here's where we differ in our interpretation:
What I got was, as the Audi turned east onto Cherry River, they saw the Buick — which was at that moment westbound on Cherry River and turning south onto Carmel Peak. At the point where the Buick turned south onto Carmel Peak, the Buick was just one or two houses east of EN's house. From EN's point of view, as the Audi was turning from Cimarron onto Cherry River, he saw the Buick driving on Cherry River almost to his house, then turning south onto Carmel Peak.

I think that's what EN saw that he thought was the Buick driving "past his house." Not fully, completely "past his house," but driving west on Cherry River to Carmel Peak — so close to his house that they could see his house as they were turning south onto Carmel Peak. Given that they had just chased him, and he thought he had scared them away when he fired his gun over on Alta, I can see how this would have alarmed him. I think it easily could have appeared to EN as if the Buick had taken that route because they were scoping out his house, or waiting for him to return to his house.

Here's the thing: I think at that point the Meyerses just wanted to get away and go home. They hadn't expected their target to have a gun and shoot at them. They fled.

But — I also think that at that point, EN was still trying to get away. He was going home too. He was scared. He hadn't gone looking for a fight or a chase that night.

He thought he had scared the Buick off and left the Buick behind over on Alta. My guess is, the Audi turned west onto Alta while the Buick was still backing up on Villa Monterey. He probably thought the Buick was going to hightail it out of there, back up Villa Monterey to Buffalo and off to wherever they came from.

So when the Audi turned onto Cherry River and EN saw the Buick drive to within 2 houses of his own house and then turn south, he thought they were still after him. He thought they knew where he lived. He thought that was why they had driven that way. He was afraid that if he did just go home, the Buick would pop back out of Carmel Peak and come after him again.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

I wish we could hear the police recording when EN was being questioned.. IMO, and it's only my opinion :blushing: EN wasn't on his way home, didn't his mom kick him out that night? I'm sorry, I don't have a link to that I'm just going off memory here on what I read someone had said.

I do as well. He had told A and K he couldn't go home so he wanted to go over there instead, which may or may not have been true as he was home the next morning and also even if it was true that his mom had kick him out for the evening, it still doesn't mean he wouldn't have wanted to go home to protect his family given how there's an armed car that chased him in the neighborhood. I think he wanted to keep driving after he passed his home, but there's nothing stated from him that he told the Audi driver to keep going beyond his home rather than it being the Audi driver's own initiative.

 

[sonjay]

How quaint! Let me guess, are you a Baby Boomer? Educated in the prehistoric era when Civics and American Government were legally required to be taught to all students in elementary, middle and high school?

(If not, forgive me for thinking you are older than you are. GenX, maybe?)

LOL! Tail end of the Boomer gen. Learned about civics. Learned about the need to have trials first. Learned that everyone has a right to due process before we throw them in prison for life. I know, the concept is a pretty quaint relic of American history, but I bitterly cling to it.

 

[sonjay]

He said they continued westbound and he
said that he couldn't believe they were driving past his
house. His house is further to the west on Cherry River
than Carmel Peak. So they turned around and they came
back and he said "I know a left turn, a shortcut to get
to my house," something to that effect.

The reason the driver did anything past EN's home is speculation - the speculation may be accurate, but it is still speculation and it can't necessarily be attributed to EN.

I wish we could hear the police recording when EN was being questioned.. IMO, and it's only my opinion :blushing: EN wasn't on his way home, didn't his mom kick him out that night? I'm sorry, I don't have a link to that I'm just going off memory here on what I read someone had said.

Yes, he was on his way home, and no, his mom hadn't kicked him out that night -- at least, not that we're aware of.

What you remember someone saying here was that EN had told his friends he "couldn't go home" that night. Well, duh, of course not. He had just been involved in a shooting, and the whole neighborhood was filled with cops. of course he couldn't go home. But someone interpreted that to mean that his mom had kicked him out that night.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Yes, he was on his way home, and no, his mom hadn't kicked him out that night -- at least, not that we're aware of.

What you remember someone saying here was that EN had told his friends he "couldn't go home" that night. Well, duh, of course not. He had just been involved in a shooting, and the whole neighborhood was filled with cops. of course he couldn't go home. But someone interpreted that to mean that his mom had kicked him out that night.

You're right - EN doesn't say why he couldn't go home

 

[sonjay]

So when the Audi turned onto Cherry River and EN saw the Buick drive to within 2 houses of his own house and then turn south, he thought they were still after him. He thought they knew where he lived. He thought that was why they had driven that way. He was afraid that if he did just go home, the Buick would pop back out of Carmel Peak and come after him again.

Quoting myself here, because I think this point could be key in a self-defense claim.

If, in fact, the Audi turned onto Cherry River just as the Buick was turning from Cherry River onto Carmel Peak, I honestly, sincerely, completely believe that EN could easily have thought the Buick went there because they knew where he lived.

I think it was a terrible, tragic misunderstanding. I think EN wanted to go home. I've seen no evidence that EN wanted to kill TM that night. The statements and testimony lead me to understand that the Meyerses (whichever of them were in the car) went after EN. They chased EN. They were the aggressors, not EN. He thought he had scared them off over on Alta, and he was shocked to see them on Cherry River so close to his house.

I really have trouble with this whole situation. But frankly, it sure looks to me like the Meyerses were the aggressors, and if the Meyerses hadn't gone after EN that night, then TM would still be alive.

 

[Miss Muffet]

How did KM know which brother TM meant? She's got 3 brothers. According to her own testimony, only one brother, Robert, lives in the Meyers house on Mt. Shasta.

Why would KM think TM meant Brandon? Or, how would she know that TM meant Brandon?

My speculation is that RM Jr was already in the car and with MM out celebrating his birthday that only left one brother in the house.

With JR and BM being the only brothers in the house, it's understandable KM knew exactly who TM meant when she said get your brother. JR seems to be the sweet insecure soul in the family. I'll bet he's viewed the weak one. Whereas, BM seems to be oozing with confidence and strength by comparison.

Alternately, the DA only asked which brother TM meant. The DA didn't ask how KM knew which brother TM meant. While they were still in the car driving home, TM probably said something like, "We're going home to get Brandon." And when they arrived home, she simply said, "Go get your brother."

*Something just occurred to me* It is even possible KM had been in the car as it could have been that EN saw TM running toward the house - actually that may in some ways best explain the evidence. By the testimony of both Mogg and BM, TM was outside of the car rather than inside the car.

It's a stretch to say that TM was the one running towards the house when her body was found on the ground next to the car. I don't think it takes much of an imagination to realize that TM got out of the car after BM started to run.

Now that we know TM pulled the car straight into the driveway instead of towards the left near the walkway to the front door, it doesn't make sense to me why BM ran towards the house. I understand he couldn't easily get back into the car, but he could have dove in front of the car for it to shield himself from gunfire. Why run that entire way exposed and out in the open?

The reality is we can all only guess how we would react to gunfire being sprayed towards us.

 

[PaperDoll]

BBM. I got a somewhat different impression from Mogg's testimony.

What I got was the Audi -- from its position facing southbound on Villa Monterey almost to Alta -- went west on Alta to Cimarron then north on Cimarron to Cherry River. They turned east onto Cherry River -- heading toward EN's home. I think this part is also what you believe.

EN's house is on Cherry River just 1 or 2 houses to the west of the western edge of the park. Carmel Peak goes south at that same western edge of the park, just a house or two east of EN's house.

Here's where we differ in our interpretation:
What I got was, as the Audi turned east onto Cherry River, they saw the Buick — which was at that moment westbound on Cherry River and turning south onto Carmel Peak. At the point where the Buick turned south onto Carmel Peak, the Buick was just one or two houses east of EN's house. From EN's point of view, as the Audi was turning from Cimarron onto Cherry River, he saw the Buick driving on Cherry River almost to his house, then turning south onto Carmel Peak.

I think that's what EN saw that he thought was the Buick driving "past his house." Not fully, completely "past his house," but driving west on Cherry River to Carmel Peak — so close to his house that they could see his house as they were turning south onto Carmel Peak. Given that they had just chased him, and he thought he had scared them away when he fired his gun over on Alta, I can see how this would have alarmed him. I think it easily could have appeared to EN as if the Buick had taken that route because they were scoping out his house, or waiting for him to return to his house.

Here's the thing: I think at that point the Meyerses just wanted to get away and go home. They hadn't expected their target to have a gun and shoot at them. They fled.

But — I also think that at that point, EN was still trying to get away. He was going home too. He was scared. He hadn't gone looking for a fight or a chase that night.

He thought he had scared the Buick off and left the Buick behind over on Alta. My guess is, the Audi turned west onto Alta while the Buick was still backing up on Villa Monterey. He probably thought the Buick was going to hightail it out of there, back up Villa Monterey to Buffalo and off to wherever they came from.

So when the Audi turned onto Cherry River and EN saw the Buick drive to within 2 houses of his own house and then turn south, he thought they were still after him. He thought they knew where he lived. He thought that was why they had driven that way. He was afraid that if he did just go home, the Buick would pop back out of Carmel Peak and come after him again.

BBM: This is what I don't understand and again I drove this route. The Meyers would have been at their house already, pulling in the driveway, before EN ever hit Cherry River unless they drove at a really high rate of speed along with no traffic. So that now brings me to why EN would tell the driver he knows a short cut to his house since he was already on Cherry River. Gosh, I hope I'm making sense here.. lol My hubby keeps coming in a talking when I'm in the middle of typing this. UGH!

 

[sonjay]

On re-reading Mogg's testimony about what EN said, I think I misinterpreted EN's route after leaving Alta.

I think Mogg is saying this: From Villa Monterey, the Audi turned west onto Alta. As the Audi was passing Carmel Peak, EN looked north on Carmel Peak and saw the Buick turning south onto Carmel Peak from Cherry River.

At that point, I think EN had the same impression as what I said earlier: He could see that the Buick had taken Cherry River to within a couple houses of his and turned south onto Carmel Peak. He perceived that as driving "past" his house. Mogg testified that EN said he "couldn't believe they were driving past his house."

Then he told the Audi driver the comment about knowing a "shortcut" to his house. The Audi was at that point west of Carmel Peak and traveling west on Alta. The Audi turned around and went to Carmel Peak, where they turned north and followed the Buick into the Mt. Shasta cul de sac.

This makes sense, I think. Cimarron is a major road, and that's probably what the Audi driver would have taken to get to EN's house. Carmel Peak is a little bitty road — there are so many cul de sacs in that neighborhood, the Audi driver may not have known it went through to Cherry River, and EN would probably consider it a "shortcut."

This matches what Mogg said about the Audi's route, and also matches what BM said about the Audi coming north on Carmel Peak before turning onto Mt. Shasta. It also explains how the Audi "followed" the Buick to Mt. Shasta even though it actually took a different route than the Buick to get there.

Different route for the Audi than I thought. But same perceptions by EN about what the Buick was doing there.

The Buick was trying to get home.

EN was also trying to get home, and he was shocked when he saw the Buick drive "past" his house. EN will still trying to get away. EN had done nothing but try to get away; for the entire incident, EN was trying to get away.

Hell, as the Audi was heading north on Carmel Peak, EN may have told the driver "go left up here" meaning go left on Cherry River, and the driver instead turned left onto Mt. Shasta.

Who knows who opened fire first? Bob said it doesn't matter.

 

[sonjay]

BBM: This is what I don't understand and again I drove this route. The Meyers would have been at their house already, pulling in the driveway, before EN ever hit Cherry River unless they drove at a really high rate of speed along with no traffic. So that now brings me to why EN would tell the driver he knows a short cut to his house since he was already on Cherry River. Gosh, I hope I'm making sense here.. lol My hubby keeps coming in a talking when I'm in the middle of typing this. UGH!

Read my post #1059, that starts, "On re-reading Mogg's testimony."

I think it's a more accurate reading of Mogg's testimony, and would also explain how the Buick arrived in their cul de sac just a few seconds before the Audi.

Yeah, it's hard to make sense here, because these bits of information aren't being presented in any sort of clear, understandable way.

 

[Miss Muffet]

Did it occur to anyone that KM might not have good eyesight? She might be nearsighted and it was dark. That could explain why she didn't recognize EN in the park even though she knew EN.

My daughter is nearsighted. She never got into the habit of wearing contacts and she refuses to wear glasses. We've walked into restaurants for sporting event dinners and she ignored friends who were on the other side of the restaurant waving for her to come sit with them. When I asked her why, she said she didn't know who was waving and didn't realize they were waving to her. It made my daughter appear to be stuck up and not like the kids, but the reality is my daughter walks around half blind. Now you'll think that KM would have glasses on for a driving lesson, but my daughter only wore her glasses for the driving test.