Deceased/Not Found NY - Etan Patz, 6, New York, 25 May 1979 #2 *P. Hernandez guilty*

[wfgodot]

And the lampshop connection - I will have to re-read the lady talks / writes fast. Typical New Yorker. Good find.

You're right, after quickly reading (there was no other way - it read so fast!) her comments it reminded me I'd forgotten to take my blood pressure medicine, lol, and when I did that I noted on the calendar that I also had to meet the nurse practitioner this afternoon to pick up a fresh supply - had forgotten all about it. So at least her comments were extremely useful in that sense!

 

[DevilsPlayThing]

You're right, after quickly reading (there was no other way - it read so fast!) her comments it reminded me I'd forgotten to take my blood pressure medicine, lol, and when I did that I noted on the calendar that I also had to meet the nurse practitioner this afternoon to pick up a fresh supply - had forgotten all about it. So at least her comments were extremely useful in that sense!

Too funny. I am smiling. Yes, very important to not run out.

 

[RoseTree]

I wish that there were some way to find bodies on a more global scale. If we could let cadaver dogs roam free in search for a scent, and then flare when they find it..... I wish.

 

[amber1]

I also agree, I honestly don't believe Etan is very far from where he was taken (much like Beverly Potts' case) , I think he remained somewhere in the neighborhood, just with the circumstances, that's what I think. It would be great if they would let cadaver dogs run all over new york!!!

 

[wfgodot]

I don't think Etan was killed immediately after his being used for whatever nefarious purpose he was taken; if indeed he was abducted on his way to the bus stop, I believe he was kept alive for some time. And I don't believe his body is to be found nearby.

He could still be alive. Unlikely of course, but nothing disproves it.

As for cadaver dogs on the prowl, this one seems to have whiffed (no pun) in the attempt to "scent" the long-dead. I have great respect for task dogs and their trainers, and am loathe to say anything at all bad about a dog, any dog, but really - sometimes I think we think their abilities, to spell dog backwards, are somehow god-like*. They're safe bets to find the dead above ground, and perhaps the newly dead buried underground. But the long since departed? Perhaps with the perfect trainer and the perfect dog, it's possible, 33 years on. But we're in short supply of perfection on this planet.

(*as the great G.K. Chesterton wrote, "I always like a dog so long as he isn't spelled backward.")

 

[amber1]

I also have wondered how dogs are expected to pick up scents decades later, I see that they use that technique in many missing persons cases that are years old, and I'm not sure how reliable that can be. Right after the event has taken place, I absolutely believe dogs can track smells days later, maybe even a year...but decades later, I wonder..

 

[txanmom]

Rest in Peace, Etan Patz (Huffington Post)

much more at link above

Does anyone think that Etan might still be alive? Or that he was kept alive significantly longer than the day he disappeared? I'm wondering.

You know, this very thought has crossed my mind as well. He may not know who he is. There was a recent article in a People magazine about a man who finally after 30+ years found his real bio dad again. His bio mother had left with him when he just a baby and he ended up being adopted by another family who did not know he had a father looking for him (they never located his bio mother who took him).

One of the reasons I feel he *could* still be alive is that I read in an article somewhere and also some posters were discussing it, that Ramos came into a fairly large sum of money around the time this all happened. Makes you wonder if he sold him to someone overseas somewhere. I kind of wish that would be the case. He could speak a different language by know and not really remember what had happened to him. I can hardly remember anything before I was about 8-10 yo, just bits and pieces. I think sometimes liars use some truth in their lies, so maybe the comment about putting him on the train to his aunt's house was a little part of the truth of him selling Etan. Does anyone know if Ramos has family and if so have they ever been located or interviewed?

 

[wfgodot]

I don't think I"ve ever seen or read anything in which Ramos' family participated. As for the perhaps-mythic $10,000, I also don't think I have ever happened upon documentation sufficient enough to satisfy me that he actually did come into a large sum of money. Of the many things Ramos is, he is also a fabulist.

But if one believes he was truth-telling, it certainly could have had something to do with Etan.

 

[DevilsPlayThing]

Well in this case LE first placed the jars in the basement - which in theory would detect buried then cement covered target. Jars possibly showed that there was a possibility that there was a target - {I am assuming because all there are in this case is media reports. Some cases you can read the test results - police reports - court records - transcipts - search warrants - polygraph results - other related offical documents. But not with this case.}
After jar or jars bring positive result - the dog or dogs also hit on a target. But nothing is found. {Chinese food ? - was this under the cement ?}
Also the equipment which detects if ground disturbances were possibly utelized. But since nothing was found - did the jars really get a positive result in the first place. Did the scent dog really alert - were they going to dig the entire basement anyways? Has the media ever done a FOIA request regarding this case? Most missing person cases do not have an Assistant US Attorney physically participating in the search and investigation in the manner GraBois did with this case. Possibly now making FOIA request impossible. Or someone has filed a Privacy Act Request regarding this case. Which has long ago been granted.

Etan's case is a vast contrast from others - even where juveniles are victims. Where volumes of case documentation are viewable. Ramos would have filed an appeal or appeals to his current convictions. The appeals contain facts of the crimes - and extensive background information. Ramos has filed Civil Rights Suit or Suits from SCI Dallas - where he is housed - for prison conditions. Yet no record of an appeal for his convictions are recorded. He was described as a jailhouse lawyer type - helping other inmates with their cases years ago. This description seems accurate as his newest Civil Rights Suit has some activity in 2011.

I just find it highly unusual that the only documentation regarding Etan case are photographs. WM3 - for 1 example not only was information released regarding the 3 and the victims - but even multiple transcripts of the best friend of the victims - a juvenile who was like 10 years old. No parent or attorney by his side. And the time the interviews conducted the case was not consindered solved - no suspects in custody. That is just 1 example and 1 case. Compared to Etan's case there are 0 documents. Actually a person would be more hard pressed so to say - to find a case where no police reports or search warrants - grand jury indictments - civil suit transcript - court transcipts - interview transcripts - polygraph records - of some of those involved especially someone convicted such as Ramos - would not be easily found.

 

[txanmom]

I don't think I"ve ever seen or read anything in which Ramos' family participated. As for the perhaps-mythic $10,000, I also don't think I have ever happened upon documentation sufficient enough to satisfy me that he actually did come into a large sum of money. Of the many things Ramos is, he is also a fabulist.

But if one believes he was truth-telling, it certainly could have had something to do with Etan.

I truly wish that would be so. I am so sorry for SP and JP they have been through he77.

ot**love your boston! I have 2, Dexter and Eva, they are the best!

 

[DevilsPlayThing]

To Tell The Truth
By: Jose Antonio Ramos
{ Prison Address }

http://www.prisoners.com/ttttruth.html

 

[thisgirl]

if this is even borderline inappropriate please advise or delete as i mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone, but as anyone discussed at all or felt slightly uncomfortable about the images that have been made available of Etan? There seems to be so many of him without his shirt on, or in what I feel slightly odd positions? He is extremely beautiful photogenic child & the images look to me to be professionally taken from my perspective of an amateur-semi pro photographer.

Are these considered "normal" & "innocent" pictures of the time? I say that because he went missing a year before I was born, so I am not all that familiar with the style & also due to the fact that I have a 9 year old son & while I have pictures of him as a baby with very little clothing, I have never set up a photo shot with him in a professional setting in such a manner?

Again, no disrespect. I am brand new to this case & just right off the bat felt odd about something that probably means nothing, but I can't shake it.

 

[Kat]

Hi thisgirl, Etan's father was a professional photographer. IMHO and only IMHO there is nothing nefarious about his father's photos of Etan.

 

[wfgodot]

Certain of the pictures published of Etan have always been viewed by some as problematical, both then and now.

If we assume they were pictures taken by the professional photographer in his home, it is inappropriate to discuss them fully as the family are victims, not suspects. It remains an area of the case beyond the WS purview.

 

[thisgirl]

Certain of the pictures released of Etan have always been viewed by some as problematical, both then and now.

If we assume they were pictures taken by the professional photographer in his home, it is inappropriate to discuss them fully as the family are victims, not suspects. It remains an area of the case beyond the WS purview.

thank you kat & wfgodot. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. i was unaware of the connection. somehow today was the first day that i had ever heard of this case & i am very interested. will try to become more informed before i involve myself in further discussions.

 

[wfgodot]

thank you kat & wfgodot. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. i was unaware of the connection. somehow today was the first day that i had ever heard of this case & i am very interested. will try to become more informed before i involve myself in further discussions.

You've done fine. Certain aspects of this case are rather tricky areas.

 

[Kat]

No big deal thisgirl! Feel free to post your thoughts! This is a very old case and sometimes with decades old cases like this there is so much info out there it's hard to know where to even start. So many years have passed that I had to catch up on a lot of the info because I had forgotten it.

Etan went missing the month and year I graduated from High School. I'm now middle aged with five kids. Been a long long time.

 

[Wondergirl]

I wish that LE would request Canadian Profiler OPP Det.-Sgt. Jim Smyth have a go at Ramos.

He extracted a confession out of former Colonel Russell Williams, once commander of Canada's largest military base, and convicted murderer and rapist.

He has also worked with the FBI in some high profile cases recently.

Link to the video of his extraction of the confession of Williams.

Should be used to train profilers everywhere, IMO.

If anyone has a connection to LE in Etan's case, it is worthy of a suggestion, believe me. The man is a genius in psychology. He also single handedly found missing 8 year old Victoria Stafford's remains, based on behavioural analysis, and an extracted confession from 1 of her murderers.

OPP Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth presents evidence to Col. Russell Williams in a videotaped interrogation Feb 7, 2010

Video: Russell Williams confession, Pt. 1 - YouTube

 

[RoseTree]

Wow, what a brilliant guy. I bet that part of his success is due to his calm nature, allowing dignity to the accused and showing them respect- while also giving importance to the situation. Cl Williams still had a lot of power in that conversation.

 

[Mozenrath]

To me, it's pretty clear that it was Ramos. Sure, we don't know for sure, and we probably won't ever know for sure, but if you want someone to blame, I believe that's our best bet. Honestly, do you really think that a sicker than sick child molester in that close of a proximity to Etan wasn't responsible? I think it's very likely.

We can also go ahead and speculate whether or not Etan is alive. Either way, his life was taken from him in one way or another, and in both circumstances, his parents lose. There's nothing right now to indicate that he is alive. But if we've got a convicted child rapist who targeted boys who fit Etan's profile, do you honestly think it was anyone else? Probably not. I don't buy his story for an instant. He's willing to admit to other crimes, but if you think about it, it's not really that hard to cop out when you've already been charged with other similar crimes. So sure, Etan just might be alive, or he might be dead; I think an individual like Ramos is capable of almost anything.