NY - Karina Vetrano, 30, found murdered, Queens, 2 Aug 2016 #2

[Lauranyc83]

In what video , do you have a link ?

Not sure if my previous post with the link was removed. It was previously discussed in the thread prior to the sketch being released about the sacrifice of the chickens under the Crossbay Bridge and the homeless man who saves the chickens that are left behind. I guess I can only guide you with information on what to search for =)

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[marble]

I am respectfully asking if you believe that all criminals, deviants, sociopaths, etc are all a product of "nurture" (aka how they were brought up & the conditions they endured) and that "nature" (aka genetic preclavities/inherent brain formalities) does not play a part in that?

At the risk of sending this way off the rails, notice that Think Hard said "most" not all.

A tiny number of people are born with brains (for lack of a better word) that are faulty in structure to the point that they are unable to feel empathy *or* to tell right from wrong. As children they display anti-social traits from the start and without any form of positive intervention those ant-social traits bloom into psychopathy in adulthood, even if their childhood environment was "normal". Some studies show that positive interventions in this subgroup can encourage these children to mature into adults without psychopathic behaviors. In other seemingly more common cases, the genetic markers for psychopathy are there, and based on environmental factors carriers either do or don't develop into psychopaths. It seems most studies agree that there isn't really a nature/nurture divide; studies now are trying to determine how and why the expression of these genes is suppressed in people born with a predisposition to anti-social behavior.

Here's one paper from 2004 that cites studies of twins. If anyone is interested but doesn't have the time to read the full study, the synopsis is a decent overview.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/educational-psychology/resources/Viding_2004_NYAS.pdf

I know there's been some other studies in the last 10 years using brain MRIs and documenting where different regions of the brain are active in psychopaths versus control groups.
Here's one that shows distinct frontal lobe differences: http://www.med.wisc.edu/news-events...w-differences-in-structure-and-function/32979

But people who don't become psychopaths can have these abnormal MRIs as well, so there's more at play. For example, "The Neuroscientist Who Discovered He-Was a Psychopath": http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...covered-he-was-a-psychopath-180947814/?no-ist

 

[BluegrassBuckeye]

At the risk of sending this way off the rails, notice that Think Hard said "most" not all.

A tiny number of people are born with brains (for lack of a better word) that are faulty in structure to the point that they are unable to feel empathy *or* to tell right from wrong. As children they display anti-social traits from the start and without any form of positive intervention those ant-social traits bloom into psychopathy in adulthood, even if their childhood environment was "normal". Some studies show that positive interventions in this subgroup can encourage these children to mature into adults without psychopathic behaviors. In other seemingly more common cases, the genetic markers for psychopathy are there, and based on environmental factors carriers either do or don't develop into psychopaths. It seems most studies agree that there isn't really a nature/nurture divide; studies now are trying to determine how and why the expression of these genes is suppressed in people born with a predisposition to anti-social behavior.

Here's one paper from 2004 that cites studies of twins. If anyone is interested but doesn't have the time to read the full study, the synopsis is a decent overview.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/educational-psychology/resources/Viding_2004_NYAS.pdf

I know there's been some other studies in the last 10 years using brain MRIs and documenting where different regions of the brain are active in psychopaths versus control groups.
Here's one that shows distinct frontal lobe differences: http://www.med.wisc.edu/news-events...w-differences-in-structure-and-function/32979

But people who don't become psychopaths can have these abnormal MRIs as well, so there's more at play. For example, "The Neuroscientist Who Discovered He-Was a Psychopath": http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...covered-he-was-a-psychopath-180947814/?no-ist

It's a small number of the general population, but quite high for the criminal population.
And I agree with everything you said. We just don't know enough. Yet. But it gives me a peace of mind to not view things as evil. But rather things that are beyond our current understanding and control. Imagine, 30 years from now, if there is some combination of pharmaceutical, counseling, early interventions and gene therapy that can eliminate many of the cases we discuss on here. That's much more hopeful a future than some notion of evil that will always be.
As a side note, my earlier comment was not meant to profile karinas killer as being a psychopath. He may very wel be, but there are other types of things at play sometimes.

 

[Theforeigner]

Concerning the:

"mystery man who used to run same route as murdered jogger Karina Vetrano and has not been seen since she was dragged off the trail and killed"


I can't find any info on whether this "male jogger" is supposed to be ; white? black? hispanic? asian ? etc, and I find that pretty odd!

Did I miss something or has this joggers ethnicity never been mentioned?

This is the description I have found:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...na-Vetrano-not-seen-dragged-trail-killed.html

He described the man as being:

between 30 and 35 years old,
5-foot-9,
150 pounds with black hair parted to the side
'He has a really strange stride.
In the wintertime, he would wear black gloves and a black cap.
In the summer, he might run shirtless.
'He is very, very fit. Not a weightlifter, but extremely fit.'

 

[Lauranyc83]

Concerning the:

"mystery man who used to run same route as murdered jogger Karina Vetrano and has not been seen since she was dragged off the trail and killed"


I can't find any info on whether this "male jogger" is supposed to be ; white? black? hispanic? asian ? etc, and I find that pretty odd!

Did I miss something or has this joggers ethnicity never been mentioned?

This is the description I have found:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...na-Vetrano-not-seen-dragged-trail-killed.html

He described the man as being:

between 30 and 35 years old,
5-foot-9,
150 pounds with black hair parted to the side
'He has a really strange stride.
In the wintertime, he would wear black gloves and a black cap.
In the summer, he might run shirtless.
'He is very, very fit. Not a weightlifter, but extremely fit.'

KVs dad had stated white male, however this guy has already come forward and spoke to police.

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[Momoffourboys]

Concerning the:

"mystery man who used to run same route as murdered jogger Karina Vetrano and has not been seen since she was dragged off the trail and killed"


I can't find any info on whether this "male jogger" is supposed to be ; white? black? hispanic? asian ? etc, and I find that pretty odd!

Did I miss something or has this joggers ethnicity never been mentioned?

This is the description I have found:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...na-Vetrano-not-seen-dragged-trail-killed.html

He described the man as being:

between 30 and 35 years old,
5-foot-9,
150 pounds with black hair parted to the side
'He has a really strange stride.
In the wintertime, he would wear black gloves and a black cap.
In the summer, he might run shirtless.
'He is very, very fit. Not a weightlifter, but extremely fit.'

I think you are confusing the male jogger and the sketch guy. The male jogger has come forward. He is 48. And is unrelated.
Sketch guy is a black male. Has not come forward.

 

[Theforeigner]

KVs dad had stated white male, however this guy has already come forward and spoke to police.

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Ok I missed that, sorry.

Could you provide a link to info that he had come foreward ? TIA

 

[Lauranyc83]

Ok I missed that, sorry.

Could you provide a link to info that he had come foreward ? TIA

http://www.newsday.com/news/new-yor...arina-vetrano-s-slaying-police-say-1.12243074

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[trigger]

I think I maybe missing something but I don't know where to find this..thank you for your help

Put in google-sketch of subject in robbery in nyc. You will see composite pictures of several men-click on view all. Hth

 

[marble]

It's a small number of the general population, but quite high for the criminal population.
And I agree with everything you said. We just don't know enough. Yet. But it gives me a peace of mind to not view things as evil. But rather things that are beyond our current understanding and control. Imagine, 30 years from now, if there is some combination of pharmaceutical, counseling, early interventions and gene therapy that can eliminate many of the cases we discuss on here. That's much more hopeful a future than some notion of evil that will always be.
As a side note, my earlier comment was not meant to profile karinas killer as being a psychopath. He may very wel be, but there are other types of things at play sometimes.

Ah yes, I agree with all of this, including the fact that Karina's murderer isn't necessarily a psychopath.

My mother's best friend had a son around my age who was a psychopath. They recognized the signs *very* early in him as a child and his mother (who was a wonderful person with two other completely wonderful children a year older and a year younger than him) started trying to get him help early on. His parents took him to lots of specialists and tried all kinds of interventions (some of these, like "tough love" camps" probably made the matter worse- it was the 70s and even less was understood then about child pathopsychology) until he joined the army (as was immediately kicked out) and landed in jail shortly after.

His family believed he was socially impaired from birth- little grasp or care about telling right from wrong, no empathy, set things on fire, etc. They'd never abused him. But then at some point, when he was older, a female babysitter who'd watched him sometimes as a baby and young toddler was put in jail for child rape and molestation. So it's very possible that he also was horrifically abused without his family's knowledge- but whether his sickness was triggered by terrible outside events is anyone's guess. By the time he was six or seven the way his brain worked (or didn't) seemed like it was just a part of him already.

The time I spent around him over a number of my childhood years probably influences how I feel about psychopaths- I believe it's possible to feel empathy for them and consider them deeply broken human beings but also to be very afraid of them and believe that violent psychopaths need to be kept separate from the rest of society, at least until the day comes that there is a path to rehabilitation and effective treatment. If we label people who carry out horrific acts as purely as "Evil" and not deeply sick but still human, then we can't as a society study how to treat and hopefully one day cure the disorders that lead to the acts.

 

[BluegrassBuckeye]

Ah yes, I agree with all of this, including the fact that Karina's murderer isn't necessarily a psychopath.

My mother's best friend had a son around my age who was a psychopath. They recognized the signs *very* early in him as a child and his mother (who was a wonderful person with two other completely wonderful children a year older and a year younger than him) started trying to get him help early on. His parents took him to lots of specialists and tried all kinds of interventions (some of these, like "tough love" camps" probably made the matter worse- it was the 70s and even less was understood then about child pathopsychology) until he joined the army (as was immediately kicked out) and landed in jail shortly after.

His family believed he was socially impaired from birth- little grasp or care about telling right from wrong, no empathy, set things on fire, etc. They'd never abused him. But then at some point, when he was older, a female babysitter who'd watched him sometimes as a baby and young toddler was put in jail for child rape and molestation. So it's very possible that he also was horrifically abused without his family's knowledge- but whether his sickness was triggered by terrible outside events is anyone's guess. By the time he was six or seven the way his brain worked (or didn't) seemed like it was just a part of him already.

The time I spent around him over a number of my childhood years probably influences how I feel about psychopaths- I believe it's possible to feel empathy for them and consider them deeply broken human beings but also to be very afraid of them and believe that violent psychopaths need to be kept separate from the rest of society, at least until the day comes that there is a path to rehabilitation and effective treatment. If we label people who carry out horrific acts as purely as "Evil" and not deeply sick but still human, then we can't as a society study how to treat and hopefully one day cure the disorders that lead to the acts.

Oh how interesting! And how sad. yoi might enjoy this NYT piece "can you call a nine-year-old a psychopath." Very interesting.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/magazine/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath.html

Also, I think you made an excellent point about sicknesses being triggered by experiences. This is true for so many things. Our genes are literally influenced and "turned on" by the environment. Nature and nurture are so intertwined it's near impossible to simplify these things.

 

[FindHG]

Put in google-sketch of subject in robbery in nyc. You will see composite pictures of several men-click on view all. Hth

I keep thinking about the one you pointed out, was the 5th, in the second row.

 

[x_files]

Yes, its crazy. There were issues apparently with the Houston Crime Lab during that period.

depressing.

 

[FindHG]

Police: Man Sexually Assaults 24-Year-Old Woman In Brooklyn Alleyway
September 1, 2016 11:58 PM

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/09/01/bed-stuy-attempted-rape/

Here are the 3 side by side: View attachment 100547

I think they all share similarities. The eyes match the morning side guy on the right, but their chins and face shape are very different.

The guy on the left shares the same face shape and chip but a different nose.

one of these, with the mustache

Ms. Grace on HLN, segment on not blaming a witness, re: Vanessa's case

 

[madamx]

Yes,Yes, Yes... BluegrassBuckeye I agree with you 100% I saw this years ago and I found it very interesting [video=youtube;n6WASU4-2jU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6WASU4-2jU[/video]

Yes. A million times, yes! Thank you. I think we try to make sense of the senseless, which is impossible, especially as (mostly) rational humans. But these people who commit these acts are sick. Very, very sick. A normal brain/person has empathy. It's the foundation for our social selves. And while so much of it is learned, there is a great deal that is simply the way we are wired. Some people literally have a weaker paralimbic system in their brains, keeping them from good decision making, thinking of consequences, caring for the feelings of another, etc. Biology may not always be destiny, but in terms of psychopathic behavior, it currently is. Here's to future research in neuroscience that may help those with no empathy, those with the desire to harm others, and those who are unable to control sexual attraction to children. I can't imagine.

 

[madamx]

Honestly I kind of have to agree. with ThinkHard on this one.

This guy seems all about his chickens. I read the Daily News article and apparently the guy would call the cops to report people and to report when his chickens would get stolen.
My Opinion is the cops in the area probably know him or of him and maybe even have questioned him. He seems like a fixture.
Although at the end of the article it seems he moved and he moved his chickens to an undisclosed location because people were stealing them. It also says he wanders around the area looking for his chickens when they have gone missing or looking for chickens that people abandoned there all the time.

I personally have been doing rescue work in the streets of Queens and LI since 1989. I have met many people who rescue and the Only time I have seen people that save animals get really upset (Including myself) is when some Human is harming an Animal. I have yet to have met a person who rescues to be a rapist or killer or have that feel to them. I have not even ever read of an animal rescuer on the news killing anyone. Usually hear the serial killers torture animals.. I don't know.. again just my opinion..

I'm confused? Why would you think someone who is empathetic toward the needs of chickens, not be empathetic towards humans? It seems to me people who believe in the sanctity of life fire a chicken are also going to believe in the sanctity of life for humans.

IF in a confused brain, he's so angry at humans for harming chickens, wouldn't he take it out on the people doing this to the chickens? Not on a young women from a culture that has nothing to do with harm coming to these chickens?

 

[ThinkHard]

I am respectfully asking if you believe that all criminals, deviants, sociopaths, etc are all a product of "nurture" (aka how they were brought up & the conditions they endured) and that "nature" (aka genetic preclavities/inherent brain formalities) does not play a part in that?

You might want to reread the very last sentence I wrote over again, as the answer to your question is right there.

"It's really the convergence of said personality with trauma and lack of support system that leads sociopaths to become criminals"

 

[ThinkHard]

Yes. A million times, yes! Thank you. I think we try to make sense of the senseless, which is impossible, especially as (mostly) rational humans. But these people who commit these acts are sick. Very, very sick. A normal brain/person has empathy. It's the foundation for our social selves. And while so much of it is learned, there is a great deal that is simply the way we are wired. Some people literally have a weaker paralimbic system in their brains, keeping them from good decision making, thinking of consequences, caring for the feelings of another, etc. Biology may not always be destiny, but in terms of psychopathic behavior, it currently is. Here's to future research in neuroscience that may help those with no empathy, those with the desire to harm others, and those who are unable to control sexual attraction to children. I can't imagine.

Lack of empathy alone is not a precursor to deviant behavior though. Lots of people with mis wired limibic systems do not go on to become criminals. Just because many of them can't feel empathy doesn't mean they all lack a social coincidence. Even if they might not be able to feel the pain of someone else doesn't mean a lack of empathy always leads someone to wanting to harm someone.

You have to have both faulty brain wire, and lack of proper support for your differences through development and combined with some unresolved trauma that got locked in the brain at a critical time of development .... On top of lack of empathy for others, to lead to criminal behavior.

I work with troubled youth, I've worked with ages 0-18 with all different backgrounds, all different struggles, all different biological/genetic issues and mis wired brains etc....every kid with the right person to understand them, and with the right support can overcome any "wiring" differences.

It doesn't mean that they will see the world the same way as everyone else, but you can get them to understand the differences btw how they view the world and how most of the rest of the world views it, so that they may learn to use their strengths to bridge these gaps.

 

[ThinkHard]

At the risk of sending this way off the rails, notice that Think Hard said "most" not all.

A tiny number of people are born with brains (for lack of a better word) that are faulty in structure to the point that they are unable to feel empathy *or* to tell right from wrong. As children they display anti-social traits from the start and without any form of positive intervention those ant-social traits bloom into psychopathy in adulthood, even if their childhood environment was "normal". Some studies show that positive interventions in this subgroup can encourage these children to mature into adults without psychopathic behaviors. In other seemingly more common cases, the genetic markers for psychopathy are there, and based on environmental factors carriers either do or don't develop into psychopaths. It seems most studies agree that there isn't really a nature/nurture divide; studies now are trying to determine how and why the expression of these genes is suppressed in people born with a predisposition to anti-social behavior.

Here's one paper from 2004 that cites studies of twins. If anyone is interested but doesn't have the time to read the full study, the synopsis is a decent overview.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/educational-psychology/resources/Viding_2004_NYAS.pdf

I know there's been some other studies in the last 10 years using brain MRIs and documenting where different regions of the brain are active in psychopaths versus control groups.
Here's one that shows distinct frontal lobe differences: http://www.med.wisc.edu/news-events...w-differences-in-structure-and-function/32979

But people who don't become psychopaths can have these abnormal MRIs as well, so there's more at play. For example, "The Neuroscientist Who Discovered He-Was a Psychopath": http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...covered-he-was-a-psychopath-180947814/?no-ist

Interesting that you mentioned the doctor thing, actually a lot of physicians likely fall under the category for sociopath, far more then you realize.

It's part of the reason you find so many brilliant doctors who treat patients like terrible. They are brilliant but they lack empathy. Being a sociopath in that profession is actually somewhat of an advantage because it always them to focus on information without getting distracted by emotions.

 

[Momoffourboys]

In NY Jogger Killing, a DNA Sample but No One to Match It To

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ny-jogger-killing-dna-sample-match-41800880