NY - Officer Daniel Pantaleo used deadly chokehold on Eric Garner, Staten Island, July 2014

[Zuri]

katydid23, I certainly can understand their concern, I know there is no way that I could do that job, ever. Why should they then be accused of something they didn't do? Speaking about the EG case, the lack of compassion and care about a man dying on the sidewalk is what has gotten to me. It looked like excess force to me, but I'm no expert on whether the cops were going by their training or not. But I do understand when people have become hardened, and just see a criminal dying or dead on the ground, as he should have not been doing this or that, or why didn't he do this or that. He had family that loves him, and watching him in that video dying really got to me, and I hope I never become that way, where things like this don't matter.

Thank you for posting this so eloquently. That is the part that has gotten to me too. IMO this is a rarity, not the norm, and I have the utmost respect for LE. They have played an integral role in my life as a homicide survivor and as a parent. LE does so much good and the cops I know are stellar human beings.

As I write this, the Philly news is reporting on a woman who set her neighbors house on fire, who happened to be a LEO. She set the fire, which destroyed the home, because he was a cop and her son had been arrested by a cop, NOT even this cop. This is nuts. LE is not the enemy!

 

[cady]

I remember seeing a report on tv weeks ago, when this first happened, about the case. And from that report it seemed that it was a task force that was sent out to arrest the many 'loosie' sellers on the street. So I think they watched him selling cigs before the takedown. There were about 5 or 6 cops there. I doubt there would be that many otherwise. jmo

I heard on CNN this AM a cop being interviewed, who said something about 311 call repeatedly being made by the same person....so it is their policy to respond to the repeated calls, and try to make whatever the problem is go away! I think that maybe it was the same caller about the same person ((EG), so they suspected that he was selling loosies again, which he may or may not have beendoing that particular day. JMO

 

[Gardenlady]

IMO this is an abusive law, but just who do you think made the law? The liberal New York politicians, urged on by anti-smoking crusaders. BTW, the politicians also want the tax revenue.

There's an old saying you shouldn't have a law on the books you aren't willing to kill to enforce.

I'm well aware of the law, and where it came from, thanks for the lecture on liberals though. Would it surprise you to know that I also think it's a stupid law?

I do find the following to be an interesting thought exercise though: let's say Mr Garner was a white, tea party patriot, settin outside the general store of ye olde country town, anywhere, USA, engaging in selling loosies. Cops come in and take him down and he ends up dead. What is the reaction then? Well then Mr Garner is just a good old boy being hassled by the liberal government overstepping it's bounds by regulating smoking! Outrage! He'd be a martyr on the right lol.


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[Gardenlady]

Mr Garner had been arrested NINE TIMES for selling loosies. So he was not that good at hiding his antics. There are probably surveillance cams around the stores as well. I am sure they had good reason to make the arrest. There were 5 cops for a reason, imo.

As foe the 'crime', I agree it seems petty. But when reading about it I understand it a bit better. NYC has about 6 bucks worh of taxes on a pack of cigs. They do so for health and business reasons. When people go out of the area to buy them and then come and sell them, cheaply, it is like STEALING from the tax base. And it is unfair to the store owners, who pay rent, expenses, employees and taxes, only to see peeps out front underselling them ILLEGALLY> What if you saw people every day doing something illegal, that took away from you and your familys business? You might see it as a bigger crime in that case.

I can't think of any scenario where i would consider it a crime worthy of multiple cops on scene and the amount of violence I saw on that video.


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[jennapuppy]

Yes. They feel that was a 'bad' takedown. And they agree that the public should be upset. But it needs to be seen in context. Look at the start of the video, which is usually edited out. It shows a very angry Garner saying angrily, GO AWAY, LEAVE ME BE, ...etc etc... and insisting he is not going to be arrested. THAT is resisting arrest. he had been arrested for the same offense 9 times previously. So there was a reason that he was taken doen physically.

One cop told me that every says ' I cant breathe' when they are being held down, so unfortunately, many cops tend to ignore that complaint. And it is very sad.

I don't think the cops thought he was dying at the time. And that was negligence on their part for sure.

When I first heard of this case, I wondered why he wasn't just given a ticket. Then I read that he had been arrested many times for this same offense and, at the time of his death, was out on bail for illegally reselling cigarettes.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2014/12/04/who-was-eric-garner

It seems that LE need better training to help them differentiate those who can't breathe from those who are bluffing. It really bothers me that the EMTs weren't more proactive when they arrived at the scene. IMO

 

[JLL829]

Thank you for posting this so eloquently. That is the part that has gotten to me too. IMO this is a rarity, not the norm, and I have the utmost respect for LE. They have played an integral role in my life as a homicide survivor and as a parent. LE does so much good and the cops I know are stellar human beings.

As I write this, the Philly news is reporting on a woman who set her neighbors house on fire, who happened to be a LEO. She set the fire, which destroyed the home, because he was a cop and her son had been arrested by a cop, NOT even this cop. This is nuts. LE is not the enemy!

No they are not the enemy but sadly that's what they are being made out to be. I hate to see what happens if laws are changed because we need LE. There are always a few bad seeds in every thing it doesn't make them all bad and I don't think these protest are for justified causes.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

bbm It doesn't have to be answered. It's the most recent that I can think of as well. As far as a thrill kill, as it was,imo. Not a case 90 years ago, that was not a thrill kill which is what the topic was when it was asked. Nitpick? No I'll leave that to others here that seem to be good at it.

There are 13,000 murders a year, and that case happened almost 9 years ago. You don't think there has been another thrill killing in the past 117,000 murders? How many of those cases are brought up in every online discussion about any crime story?

 

[Gardenlady]

There are 13,000 murders a year, and that case happened almost 9 years ago. You don't think there has been another thrill killing in the past 117,000 murders? How many of those cases are brought up in every online discussion about any crime story?

Not many. But I think we all know the mention of the Newsom case was a dog whistle.


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[katydid23]

I can't think of any scenario where i would consider it a crime worthy of multiple cops on scene and the amount of violence I saw on that video.


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I guess you would have to put yourself in the cops shoes. They have been ORDERED to enforce that law. Ordered by the Commissioner of Police and the Mayor. And they have been called in by a local shopowner who feels his business is being damaged.

As for why there are that many cops---this man was arrested 30 times before. He is a big man. Maybe they were aware of his plans to resist. He told them angrily that he was NOT going to be arrested and he told them to go away. So they got physical with him.

I do think they went over the top. But I understand why they do so. They are facing down danger 24/7. They have the right to come home to their families at night. The people they arrest are making the choice to break laws and take on the cops. JMO

 

[eileenhawkeye]

If a man abducts a woman, and she has a heart attack while she is tied up in the trunk, I wonder how much support there would be to charge him w/ manslaughter or something higher. Or is he absolved from all charges because he didn't actually kill her?

 

[William N]

I'm well aware of the law, and where it came from, thanks for the lecture on liberals though. Would it surprise you to know that I also think it's a stupid law?

I do find the following to be an interesting thought exercise though: let's say Mr Garner was a white, tea party patriot, settin outside the general store of ye olde country town, anywhere, USA, engaging in selling loosies. Cops come in and take him down and he ends up dead. What is the reaction then? Well then Mr Garner is just a good old boy being hassled by the liberal government overstepping it's bounds by regulating smoking! Outrage! He'd be a martyr on the right lol.


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I've never seen or heard of anyone "selling loosies outside the general store of ye olde country town." And I frequent such places.

<modsnip>

 

[Gardenlady]

I guess you would have to put yourself in the cops shoes. They have been ORDERED to enforce that law. Ordered by the Commissioner of Police and the Mayor. And they have been called in by a local shopowner who feels his business is being damaged.

As for why there are that many cops---this man was arrested 30 times before. He is a big man. Maybe they were aware of his plans to resist. He told them angrily that he was NOT going to be arrested and he told them to go away. So they got physical with him.

I do think they went over the top. But I understand why they do so. They are facing down danger 24/7. They have the right to come home to their families at night. The people they arrest are making the choice to break laws and take on the cops. JMO

None of this "poor cops" stuff justifies the statistics we see on who gets injured or killed in arrests for the same crime. None of it justifies any use of excessive force. They should be held to a HIGHER standard than the average citizen because they are armed not only with weapons but with the full force of the state behind them. We cannot have cops using the same amount of force to take down an unarmed guy under suspicion of selling loose smokes as they do for an armed, possibly dangerous person suspected of murder.

It is absolute ridiculous to me that people keep pointing out his record of selling loose cigs. If people aren't trying to say that those cigs were worth his losing his life over, then what, pray tell, is the point?


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[al66pine]

From earlier post: Originally Posted by bwt42 Maybe one of the new policy changes in NYC will be to call in a medical assessment team before arresting an uncooperative suspect.

And btw said ^ serious^ when I asked.

While the concept seems well-intentioned,
I foresee many more uncooperative suspects jamming up some, many, most, or virtually lawful arrests,
just because they can force LE to call for med team/EMS, etc.
How much time would this add to each uncoop-susp arrest? 10 min? 20? 30? 60? 90?
How much money would be spent to insert a med assessmt into 'uncoop-susp' arrests? Personnel? Vehicles? Med equipment & supplies?
How many additional full-time-equivalent EMTs. 1, 5, 10, 50 annually in NYC?


JM2cts.

 

[Gardenlady]

I've never seen or heard of anyone "selling loosies outside the general store of ye olde country town." And I frequent such places.

If you desire a hypothetical situation, if a "white tea party patriot" was murdered by black perpetrators, there would be minimal coverage from the mainstream media, still less any federal investigation.

Probably because the perpetrators would not be representatives of the state, with long and wide histories of systemic and institutionalized abuse towards people of the vixtim's group.

Said perpetrators would also most likely be caught, tried, arrested - unlike the LEO in this and countless other cases.


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[Harmony 2]

If this thread is to remain open, the snark, baiting and bickering must end. It is up to you...

If you find yourself getting aggravated or frustrated consider using the ignore feature, scroll and roll or take a break.

 

[cady]

If a man abducts a woman, and she has a heart attack while she is tied up in the trunk, I wonder how much support there would be to charge him w/ manslaughter or something higher. Or is he absolved from all charges because he didn't actually kill her?

JMO Felony murder.

 

[CoolJ]

LOL!! Thats a good one that's why we have so many criminals thinking they are above the law because of that mindset

Maybe that's why we have so many bully cops, because they can't grasp that mindset. IMO

 

[bwt42]

I'm well aware of the law, and where it came from, thanks for the lecture on liberals though. Would it surprise you to know that I also think it's a stupid law?

I do find the following to be an interesting thought exercise though: let's say Mr Garner was a white, tea party patriot, settin outside the general store of ye olde country town, anywhere, USA, engaging in selling loosies. Cops come in and take him down and he ends up dead. What is the reaction then? Well then Mr Garner is just a good old boy being hassled by the liberal government overstepping it's bounds by regulating smoking! Outrage! He'd be a martyr on the right lol.
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It would never make msm.

 

[epiphany]

I guess you would have to put yourself in the cops shoes. They have been ORDERED to enforce that law. Ordered by the Commissioner of Police and the Mayor. And they have been called in by a local shopowner who feels his business is being damaged.

As for why there are that many cops---this man was arrested 30 times before. He is a big man. Maybe they were aware of his plans to resist. He told them angrily that he was NOT going to be arrested and he told them to go away. So they got physical with him.

I do think they went over the top. But I understand why they do so. They are facing down danger 24/7. They have the right to come home to their families at night. The people they arrest are making the choice to break laws and take on the cops. JMO

In January 2014, NYPD was ordered to do a ticket blitz for jaywalking (against the law) following a number of pedestrian deaths, but that does not give any officer the right to use excessive force when dealing with these IMO quality of life offenses:

<snip>

Seven months after he was left bloodied following an encounter with NYPD cops for jaywalking, 84-year-old Kang Chun Wong said walking it&#8217;s &#8220;very scary&#8221; crossing the streets of his Upper West Side neighborhood.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...er-cops-scared-cross-street-article-1.1913345

<snip> Wong, who only speaks Cantonese and Spanish, did not understand what the cop was saying. The cop took Wong&#8217;s identification card and began walking away, prompting the octogenarian to protest.

Loo, joined by several more unidentified cops, pushed Wong up against a building wall trying to handcuff him, then knocked him to the pavement where he struck the back of his head and blacked out.

BBM

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/city-hit-5m-lawsuit-jaywalk-arrest-article-1.1911226

 

[jennapuppy]

JMO Felony murder.

Yes, because it's a felony to abduct a woman, tie her up, and put her in your trunk.
IMO