GUILTY NY - Phoenix & Luna Rodriguez, 1, twins, die in hot car, Bronx, 26 July 2019 *No jail*

[Rosegold68]

its the fact he went ALL DAY without remembering that gets me!!

ALL DAY....he must have thought of them at several times....but there was no sudden sickening, jolt of "the twins!!"..... i don't get that at all

 

[gitana1]

OK. This is operating on the assumption he got out or saw the twins when dropping the other child off. Also, assuming he drove to the restaurant. The close proximity to the restaurant makes walking there a great possibility.

He drops off the child at daycare and gets back in the car with the twins. Forgets the twins are there on the way to work. Gets to work and gets out, forgetting they are there. Does not remember during the day. Gets back in the car at the end of the day, forgetting they are there and not seeing the seats. Drove to the restaurant and still doesn't notice or remember. Gets out and goes into the restaurant, still failing to remember or see the seats. Gets back in the car from the restaurant, still failing to see the seats or remember the children. Then, finally...he remembers them.

If this is the correct sequence of events, he forgot and didn't notice his children several times. And if there was a smell, he ignored it and didn't think anything amiss.

I don't know how to feel about this. But god...how many times can we forget our kids and not notice them right there? I have a sedan larger than an accord and the rear facing seats are so noticeable.

I'm not sure why one would think he would have forgotten his children on numerous occasions on that same day instead of that he had forgotten them once and did not ever remember that he actually never dropped them off until he saw them.

Either this was intentional or he forgot his kids in the car and didn't realize he had done so until something caused him to see them.

Those are the choices.

It's clear he wasn't leaving them intentionally in the car to get wasted or to go gamble. He either knew they were there and wanted to kill them or did not know they were there until he saw their car seats.

 

[Inthedetails]

its the fact he went ALL DAY without remembering that gets me!!

ALL DAY....he must have thought of them at several times....but there was no sudden sickening, jolt of "the twins!!"..... i don't get that at all

That is one reason I want to know what he did for lunch and also if there was something especially stressful for him going on at work. And, of course, did the daycare provider call him.

Again, I lean toward accident, but still want those questions answered.

jmo

 

[gitana1]

its the fact he went ALL DAY without remembering that gets me!!

ALL DAY....he must have thought of them at several times....but there was no sudden sickening, jolt of "the twins!!"..... i don't get that at all

Because as the scientist who studies hot car deaths has explained over and over again, their mind tells them that they either didn't have the kids at all or they believe they dropped them off. The mind creates a scenario for the morning that didn't occur.

This typically happens due to a perfect storm of exhaustion, morning auto pilot, a change in the routine and kids who are uncharacteristically sleeping in the car that day.

Most of these parents report thinking about their kids throughout the day.

 

[gitana1]

That is one reason I want to know what he did for lunch and also if there was something especially stressful for him going on at work. And, of course, did the daycare provided call him.

Again, I lean toward accident, but still want those questions answered.

jmo

Yes. If there's any discrepancies it's murder. I can wait.

 

[blue22]

I'm not sure why one would think he would have forgotten his children on numerous occasions on that same day instead of that he had forgotten them once and did not ever remember that he actually never dropped them off until he saw them.

Either this was intentional or he forgot his kids in the car and didn't realize he had done so until something caused him to see them.

Those are the choices.

It's clear he wasn't leaving them intentionally in the car to get wasted or to go gamble. He either knew they were there and wanted to kill them or did not know they were there until he saw their car seats.

I suppose I should have chosen my words more specifically. He was in very close proximity to his deceased children multiple times, and some how didn't see them or triggered to remember.

If he did indeed get in and put of his cars multiple times with his children right there behind him, that will be very difficult to explain. Especially given the size of the car. We don't know the full timeline or all his movements. It's just based on what could have been his movements from what we do know. I don't believe he intentionally left his children. Since I believe he forgot, this information (strictly IMO) would lean towards incredible negligence. You can forget and be negligent. That is clearly what LE thought at the time when they brought charges. We will see if that holds as they gather more information. He had multiple times to see them and remember and he didn't. That could be difficult for him to explain away. If there was an obvious or overwhelming smell, even harder.

ALL JMO

 

[blue22]

Some feel forgetting under these circumstances is neglect and others don't. It's not that the car is magical. It's just that because the parent leaves the car and it gets untenably hot, the kid isn't able to remind them they're there and the kid dies.

If a parent left a child in the house alone on accident, which happens, the child is likely to survive because it doesn't get hot. If the parent forgets a child in her crib because she thinks she took her to daycare, due to extreme exhaustion, if parent returns to the home they will hear the child cry and no police will likely be notified.

There are other cases where a child gets hurt or dies outside of a car and parents aren't charged. Mom takes a nap. Two year old wakes up, wanders into the desert and succumbs to the element. Is that neglect?

Parent allows child to walk around the restaurant and kid gets smashed to death between a table and revolving wall. Is that neglect?

Parent walks with toddler near the edge of a man made lake at a Disney resort in alligator country. Kid gets snatched and killed by an alligator. Is that neglect?

Parents believe gate to pool is locked and an alarm is set. Parents take their eyes off three year old for two minutes while playing with their other kids. When they search they don't immediately go to the pool because they are certain the gate is locked as alarm is on. Child silently drowns while parents frantically search. Is that neglect?

In none of those situations, did the parents forget about their children for hours at a time.(Aside from leaving them in the house. If LE was aware, you betcha that would be neglect. IMO. If they aren't aware, well lucky them.) Accidents DO happen right in front of us. The glaring difference is that the parent is there and a freak things happens that they couldn't control. IMO, they can't be compared, because things happen beyond our ability to control.

We can control whether a child spends hours in a car alone.

 

[mickey2942]

I don't have kids in daycare. I do have a dog that goes to daycare, occasionally, and I can login on my phone, and check out what he is doing. There is a "Doggie Daycare Cam", that has several different angles, you can periodically check out your dog.

I wonder if the daycare had a feature like this, and if the logins can be verified.

 

[Safeguard]

Oh I see this was already posted. Sorry for posting again!

Yes. It's interesting that there are several prosecutors who believe that an actual accident cannot be negligence and that you need culpable conduct such as getting high (and thus forgetting) or intentionally leaving them in the car thinking it will be only for a short time and they will be all right, and then there's those that immediately charge, like Darcel Clark who immediately charged Rodriguez with manslaughter and criminal negligence homicide and didn't wait for an investigation.

Now it appears that is on pause. But I don't think we can be so definitive about what constitutes negligence and homicide when there's such differences in how prosecutors interpret it. Even in the very same state.

Worth repeating!

What I find striking is there seems to be confusion about "mis-remembering" vs "forgetting". He didn't so much "forget" to drop them off, as he really believed he already did! A repetitive daily task, it seems clear, creates a sort of an.. opening.. a "groove, if you will, and anyone is susceptible to the this odd kind of "slip of the mind" into that groove. (Most especially, those who are "certain" it could never happen to them! And I believe this Dad was likely just such a person).

How many times have we all been asked about some mundane task, ( checking the mail, watering the lawn, whatever...), and gone, "Oh! thanks for reminding me! I thought I already did it today!" Because we do it every single day and it FELT like we remembered doing it THAT day?

Before the Hang em High crowd weighs in with all their, " But I would never forget something SO important as children!" (Don't light your torches just yet villagers!)...

It seems clear, it doesn't matter WHAT or how " important" the task is, if this "slip of the mind occurs. After the fact, You truly believe you remembered doing it.

So. YES, he could have been reminded of, thought about his babies, a hundred times that day and STILL not thought they were anywhere but safe and sound at daycare! Any sight, smell, or what-the hell-ever, he might have had in the car, at first... the LAST thing he would have though possible was, "Oh I smell something, must be my babies dead in the back of my car." In his mind, firmly, his twins were safe and happy at daycare, so he had no need to panic.

It's amazing to me, that a grandpa can lift a toddler up to a window on the 11th floor of a cruise ship, to look out a window, that there is no way he didn't know was open, due to the blue tint, she fall to her death, grandpa lies and changes his story several times, refuses a breathalyzer, but yet he not charged with what was clearly "Negligent Homicide". Yet this poor family is being raked over the coals by people ignorant enough to believe this could never happen to them.

 

[YESorNO]

N.Y.C. Prosecutors Not Sure If They Will Indict Iraq War Vet Who Left Twins in Hot Car

August 02, 2019

"Prosecutors in the Bronx are still gathering evidence on the circumstances surrounding the deaths of twin infants, who were left in a hot car Friday by their father, who said he believed he had dropped them at day care.

Bronx District Attorney’s Office spokeswoman Patrice O’Shaughnessy tells PEOPLE that while 39-year-old Juan Rodriguez has been charged and arraigned in connection with the July 26 deaths of 1-year-olds Luna and Phoenix, the case has not been presented to a grand jury for indictment.

O’Shaughnessy confirms prosecutors have six months to present a case to a grand jury, who could move to indict Rodriguez, an Iraq war veteran.

“We are not presenting to a grand jury at this time,” O’Shaughnessy tells PEOPLE. “We still need to conduct the investigation. We have to make sure that we know all the facts and everything that happened.”

O’Shaughnessy says Rodriguez, who is out on bond, will be back in court on August 27 for a status hearing...."

N.Y.C. Prosecutors Not Sure If They Will Indict Iraq War Vet Who Left Twins in Hot Car

 

[Safeguard]

Five years later, Cobb hot car death saga still haunts

"A record 52 children died as a result of vehicular heat stroke last year, more than double the number recorded in 2015, the year after Cooper Harris’ death. The number’s gone up every year since, from what had been a rough annual average of 37 deaths.

Harris’ conviction has complicated the challenge facing KidsandCars.org, a group long dedicated to educating the public that anyone can end up at the center of such an unimaginable tragedy.

“Parents have so many things coming at them,” said founder and president Janette Fennell, who strongly believes Harris did not mean to kill his son. "

“Attention spans are getting so much shorter. Our brains can’t keep up.”

 

[mickey2942]

"Iraq war veteran".

Not meaning any disrespect, but my father went to Vietnam, and had a lot to say about "Vietnam war veterans", many of whom had never picked up a weapon, or left the base.

I appreciate any one who gives service to their country. But not when their service is used as justification for anything...that is a problem. And yes, as a child of a 100% service connected veteran from Vietnam, I feel like I can say this.

The fact that this man is an "Iraqi war veteran" is not material to this situation. And insinuations that it is, disrespects other veterans.

 

[Safeguard]

"Iraq war veteran".

Not meaning any disrespect, but my father went to Vietnam, and had a lot to say about "Vietnam war veterans", many of whom had never picked up a weapon, or left the base.

I appreciate any one who gives service to their country. But not when their service is used as justification for anything...that is a problem. And yes, as a child of a 100% service connected veteran from Vietnam, I feel like I can say this.

The fact that this man is an "Iraqi war veteran" is not material to this situation. And insinuations that it is, disrespects other veterans.

The man's character profile includes his service and as such, is not immaterial . I don't see it being used as a "justification".
"disrespects other veterans"? How exactly?

<modsnip - bickering>

All service is valuable. And this man's "service" continues to this day. Imo, he brings nothing but respect to his fellow servicemen.

btw...My son is Army Special Forces Air Defence 1st. Sergeant. He's done tours in Kuwait, Qatar, Iraq, and Afghanistan. but he respects the Guards as valuable service people.

 

[Rosegold68]

so 1 child a week dies in a hot car in usa

lots of parents out there having this 'mind slip'

worrying, especially as the number is increasing every year and the reason given by president of kidsandcars.org.......“Attention spans are getting so much shorter. Our brains can’t keep up.”

 

[gitana1]

In none of those situations, did the parents forget about their children for hours at a time.(Aside from leaving them in the house. If LE was aware, you betcha that would be neglect. IMO. If they aren't aware, well lucky them.) Accidents DO happen right in front of us. The glaring difference is that the parent is there and a freak things happens that they couldn't control. IMO, they can't be compared, because things happen beyond our ability to control.

We can control whether a child spends hours in a car alone.

Not if we think we dropped them off or believe they aren't in the car.

 

[Laughing]

Anybody know how close car seats would be to the front seat in the type of Honda he had?

I'm terrible at vehicle ID, but there are a bunch of photos in Google images if you google Juan Rodriguez Honda.

Honda Accord. Very likely that the seats were lower than the backs of the front seats, and lower than the doors. With two rear-facing seats & another young child, likely the twins were by the doors & the other seat was in the middle. The front seats appear to be individual, the separation is narrow. With blackout windows, difficult to see anything in the back seat.

(Very different from J. Ross Harris' Hyundai, very different.)

JMTechnicalO YMMV

 

[RANCH]

Criminal Negligence Law and Legal Definition

Criminal negligence is conduct which is such a departure from what would be that of an ordinary prudent or careful person in the same circumstance as to be incompatible with a proper regard for human life or an indifference to consequences.

Criminal Negligence Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.

 

[escape2sc]

"Iraq war veteran".

Not meaning any disrespect, but my father went to Vietnam, and had a lot to say about "Vietnam war veterans", many of whom had never picked up a weapon, or left the base.

I appreciate any one who gives service to their country. But not when their service is used as justification for anything...that is a problem. And yes, as a child of a 100% service connected veteran from Vietnam, I feel like I can say this.

The fact that this man is an "Iraqi war veteran" is not material to this situation. And insinuations that it is, disrespects other veterans.

Regardless if he served with the National Guard or Army, Navy, Air Force or Marines.. he signed up to put his life at risk if he received orders to deploy. Surprisingly, a number of National Guard units have been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan more often than troops from the other branches of service. A friend's son is in the National Guard and on his 4th - 9 month deployment in 6 years. If you serve during war time behind a desk in the US or in a war zone .... You are a veteran.

 

[Inthedetails]

"Iraq war veteran".

And insinuations that it is, disrespects other veterans.

Snipped and bolded by me.

After serving our nation in the military, he is now a social worker who works with veterans.


jmo

 

[mickey2942]

Snipped and bolded by me.

After serving our nation in the military, he is now a social worker who works with veterans.


jmo

I won't say any more. Please read about the VA.