GUILTY NY - Phoenix & Luna Rodriguez, 1, twins, die in hot car, Bronx, 26 July 2019 *No jail*

[Catmommy]

Does anyone know if these poor babies had insurance policies on them?

 

[RANCH]

Most child care centers do have signed agreements with parents. But I think from a liability standpoint, it is the parent who is responsible for the child outside of the facility's premises.

JMO

What if the signed agreement states that the facility is to call the parents when a child is not dropped off as expected and they fail to do so?

Breach of contract that resulted in the death of a child would be considered as a very serious event. JMO

 

[Safeguard]

Friends recall Juan Rodriguez' love for his children as family prepares for twins' funeral
sbm:
"Reflecting on her niece and nephew's short life, Shecter said, "They were both just really happy children."

"They were born healthy and full-term: Phoenix was over 9 pounds, Luna was 7 pounds, their aunt said.

Marissa Rodriguez, who has a small frame, had a hard time near the end of her pregnancy, Shecter said. "The doctor said deliver earlier, but she wanted them to have their best shot. She wanted them to be perfectly healthy when they were born."

Shecter said that her and Marissa's father had died unexpectedly on Valentine's Day 2018. It was a tough loss. The twins' birth was uplifting, she said. "They came at a very needed time in our family."

"The little ones were already walking. They were beautiful, their aunt said, with long curly eyelashes. Luna was always eager to smile for a camera. "They were walking and climbing, very active," Shecter said."

And, Shecter said, those babies were loved. "Marissa was telling me that even that morning they were laying on the bed and the twins crawling all over Juan, goofing around," Shecter recalled.

Amid the morning chaos, Juan said to his wife: “I love our babies, our love our life.”

 

[Catmommy]

Yes, this is heartbreaking. The loss of any baby's life is heartbreaking. I wish with all my heart that it had never happened and would never ever happen again. Children are your greatest asset, your greatest treasure. That is why it is so important to insure their well being and safety.

 

[MyBelle]

What if the signed agreement states that the facility is to call the parents when a child is not dropped off as expected and they fail to do so?

Breach of contract that resulted in the death of a child would be considered as a very serious event. JMO

I doubt an agreement would state that requirement because it would add to staff time and the cost would be passed on to parents who are already paying a pretty penny. Our grandkids are in a daycare that charges whether they are there or not. It also has cameras where the parents can check in on them during the day and the kids' parents do just that.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Yes, this is heartbreaking. The loss of any baby's life is heartbreaking. I wish with all my heart that it had never happened and would never ever happen again. Children are your greatest asset, your greatest treasure. That is why it is so important to insure their well being and safety.

It is impossible to insure well being and safety. Accidents can and do happen. I lost my dad to a driver who lost control on an icy road.

Charges have been filed so the court process has been initiated. How it is resolved is anyone's guess at this point.

JMO

 

[TristanP]

I agree. And while I'm pondering various ideas that may or may not be complex in design, nothing I'm suggesting would be complicated to use.

But as mentioned, I think anything that reminds you *even when you don't need reminding* is going to become normalized after we've heard it a thousand times when it was ok to disregard. I think it has to be something where either we force ourselves to eyeball the carseat every single time as habit (visual sweep or keeping wallet in back etc) or we have some alarm that kicks in only when needed, so that it signifies "I actually did forget!" Then the sound triggers a sensation of alarm, as intended, and never a "oh, that annoying thing again, it's ok to turn it off because it doesn't apply this trip"

For cars that have a push button start, a parent could just set their keys on the back seat next to the car seat. They’d have to reach back to get them in order to lock the doors after they get out so they would immediately see if the baby was still back there.

 

[mickey2942]

For cars that have a push button start, a parent could just set their keys on the back seat next to the car seat. They’d have to reach back to get them in order to lock the doors after they get out so they would immediately see if the baby was still back there.

I just don't think any of these "memory" tools would work, because if you are that oblivious that you forgot about your children, I doubt that locking the car doors would be important.

It reminds me of that gal, who "teaches" pack rats how to be organized and live a minimalist lifestyle. They may as well live on separate planets.

People who don't forget things, really don't understand how the brain of someone who is completely oblivious to everything else, will "remember" things. A teddy bear in the front seat may as well be a blow up doll. They literally won't "see" it, because they are completely engrossed in thinking about something else. Not unlike how many people can drive some place, and literally have no memory of driving there, because they were thinking about something else.

The only thing I can think that would work, is that when people get to work, they usually turn on a computer, and there would be a screen saver, "DID YOU DROP OFF THE KIDS AT DAYCARE?". That would "trigger" a memory. And hopefully, the parent would have to physically check the car, to verify that the children were indeed not in the car. This would also discount the issue of "negligence", because if this meme came up, and the parent deliberately ignored it, that is the culpability factor.

Of course, the best solution would be to not leave the baby in the car. But since this situation has occurred over and over, some type of intervention is obviously needed. I would almost think that the mechanism on the baby seat, when secured, "locks" the car. The adult can't open the door, until they hit the "baby unlock" button, located near the baby.

 

[gitana1]

If people can easily forget or get habituated to the point that they can forget their precious children in a car then I feel that they will get habituated to alarms going off to remind them that their kid is in the back seat.

Eventually the sounds will become background noise and the brain will tell the parent to ignore it. JMO

I don't know. When parents hear their kids they remember they're there. If they hear the alarm and that doesn't spark anything there's more going on than we think.

One alarm that someone posted has different messages so people don't become habituated.

Should people be prosecuted for "forgetfulness"? No.

Should people who left their children in a hot car to die be completely and throughly investigated? Yes. And if the investigation shows any sort of evidence or intent, that needs further review.

For example, Harris comes to mind, he was investigated by LEO, and it was found that he sexted young women. That is not illegal, as long as they are over age 18. Nor does the fact that he was involved with other women make him a killer. But, the correlation that he also investigated "baby car deaths" does provide evidence that this was not a random occurrence.

I don't like the fact that Rodriguez pled "Not Guilty" for the death of his children. He is "Guilty". But it is obvious that he doesn't want to own that fact, legally. It seems to be a moral issue to me.

That response sort of evinces a lack of understanding of criminal charges.

Yes his kids died because he forgot them. But was it because he was reckless in his behavior some how? If not, he's not guilty of manslaughter. Was he criminally negligent? Did he do something he knew was wrong or failed to do something like take his kids out of the car that he knew was wrong? If not, he's not guilty of criminal negligent homicide.

Every element of a crime must be satisfied for a person to be guilty. And there must be no viable defenses.

So if someone kills another person, it's not necessarily first degree murder. There has to be premeditation and intent. And if it was in self defense it's not even manslaughter.

So the fact that his kids died because he forgot they were in the car and in essence, he killed them on accident due to a problem with his cognition, that doesn't mean the elements of the crimes he's been charged with have been met.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I just don't think any of these "memory" tools would work, because if you are that oblivious that you forgot about your children, I doubt that locking the car doors would be important.

I disagree that people who forget are "oblivious" in any way that implies they are not organized or fully functioning in any way.

This is not happening only to "certain types" of people. This is happening to all sorts of people for whom a strongly entrenched routine gets partially changed, and their/our brains are just not good at staying out of the habitual ruts.

Of course for 99.whatever percent of people this never results in a tragedy. But there is nothing "wrong" with the brains or executive functioning of [pretty much] all the people who experience this horrible thing. IMO.

I agree that people need to consider "what works for them" in regard to developing habits. I do not agree that these are dysfunctional people for whom no approach will stick.

Of course, the best solution would be to not leave the baby in the car. But since this situation has occurred over and over, some type of intervention is obviously needed. I would almost think that the mechanism on the baby seat, when secured, "locks" the car. The adult can't open the door, until they hit the "baby unlock" button, located near the baby.

This is a great idea!

Similar idea: latched carseat buckles prompt a text every few minutes once engine is off, until buckles are released.

You know, even a bungie cord or "leash" that connects from the carseat to the driver's door would do it...

 

[gitana1]

I just don't think any of these "memory" tools would work, because if you are that oblivious that you forgot about your children, I doubt that locking the car doors would be important.

It reminds me of that gal, who "teaches" pack rats how to be organized and live a minimalist lifestyle. They may as well live on separate planets.

People who don't forget things, really don't understand how the brain of someone who is completely oblivious to everything else, will "remember" things. A teddy bear in the front seat may as well be a blow up doll. They literally won't "see" it, because they are completely engrossed in thinking about something else. Not unlike how many people can drive some place, and literally have no memory of driving there, because they were thinking about something else.

The only thing I can think that would work, is that when people get to work, they usually turn on a computer, and there would be a screen saver, "DID YOU DROP OFF THE KIDS AT DAYCARE?". That would "trigger" a memory. And hopefully, the parent would have to physically check the car, to verify that the children were indeed not in the car. This would also discount the issue of "negligence", because if this meme came up, and the parent deliberately ignored it, that is the culpability factor.

Of course, the best solution would be to not leave the baby in the car. But since this situation has occurred over and over, some type of intervention is obviously needed. I would almost think that the mechanism on the baby seat, when secured, "locks" the car. The adult can't open the door, until they hit the "baby unlock" button, located near the baby.

I think you're right except that stuff couples with education likely prevents the lapse. Because now they're aware it can indeed happen to anyone. So they would now realize it's an additional safety issue and thus they wouldn't forget to check just as they wouldn't forget to buckle the car seat. Hopefully.

 

[mickey2942]

@gitana1 I actually do understand how the law works. But, morally, I wish that he would just "own" the fact that he is indeed "guilty". Believe me, the lack of moral integrity is something that is very much lacking in "legal" realm.

@Auntie Cipation I am definitely not insinuating that people who forget their children are low functioning. As a matter of fact, they are probably people who are very highly educated and successful who are overloaded with their lives, to a point past capacity.

 

[gitana1]

I'm talking about greater awareness.

Public knowledge about the consequences of parents actions may have a greater impact than the knowledge that their is no consequence for allowing your child to die. JMO

Consequences aren't the issue. Consequences haven't prevented people from unintentionally leaving a child in the car. Intentionally? I'm sure that's true. But not unintentionally.

Again, a criminal conviction just assured a smug public that this only happens to bad people and bad parents. Criminals. They don't have to be extra vigilant because it will never happen to them.

 

[gitana1]

BBM. The Iowa judge in the Clare Enholm death agreed with you. The circumstances to that case and this one are very similar. Small town hospital CEO mom, Kari was facing a busy day of important meetings. Kari was running late and she dropped off 3-yo son at daycare and then her brain turned on its "auto pilot" and she drove directly to the hospital, parked and started her day. Keep in mind this was a small, Iowa town and there was not a great distance involved but Kari usually dropped off Clare first. She changed her routine that day and her routine was to drop off her son and go directly to the hospital.

When the work day ended, Kari drove directly to the daycare to pick up her son. She noticed Clare as she was placing her son in the van and she became hysterical. She was charged and chose to have a bench trial. The judge decided Kari did not consciously decide to forget Clare so she didn't recklessly disregard her safety.

The prosecutor was incensed at the verdict and public opinion went wild but at least Mom was charged. The court process worked in her favor. Another judge--or a jury--may have reached an entirely different verdict.

The question I have in this case is the same one I had in the Harris case--was the family so strapped for cash they decided to intentionally leave the children in the car to save on daycare?

JMO

You typically don't pay by the day.

 

[RANCH]

Consequences aren't the issue. Consequences haven't prevented people from unintentionally leaving a child in the car. Intentionally? I'm sure that's true. But not unintentionally.

Again, a criminal conviction just assured a smug public that this only happens to bad people and bad parents. Criminals. They don't have to be extra vigilant because it will never happen to them.

Okay so these good parents who forget their children in their cars to die shouldn't be punished by the criminal justice system. It's only an accident.

I give up.

 

[gitana1]

@gitana1 I actually do understand how the law works. But, morally, I wish that he would just "own" the fact that he is indeed "guilty". Believe me, the lack of moral integrity is something that is very much lacking in "legal" realm.

@Auntie Cipation I am definitely not insinuating that people who forget their children are low functioning. As a matter of fact, they are probably people who are very highly educated and successful who are overloaded with their lives, to a point past capacity.

He said "I killed my babies!" Imnot sure how much more moral responsibility you think he's supposed to take. Plead guilty to a crime he didn't commit?

That's not logical.

 

[gitana1]

Okay so these good parents who forget their children in their cars to die shouldn't be punished by the criminal justice system. It's only an accident.

I give up.

It depends on the circumstances.

 

[RANCH]

It depends on the circumstances.

Yes, good vs bad.

 

[RANCH]

Well I've learned a couple of things in this thread.

One is that criminal negligence does not apply if a person doesn't remember that they have a child with them who is dependent on that person to survive.

Another thing I learned is that technology will solve the problem of hot car deaths. Add an alarm system to every car that is potentially used to transport small children and no more deaths. JMO

 

[Catmommy]

What I'm taking from this thread, by completely well meaning, empathetic, sympathetic people here, is that if I am responsible for someone's (even a baby's) death and it was accidental and I'm really really sorry, blanked out and devastated then I shouldn't have to face any consequence for my actions or lack thereof.