NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[Jmoose]

BBM1: More, I think. I'm under the impression that there's a DA for every county, but unless I am mistaken (very possible), doesn't the first A in ADA mean "assistant"? That's why I thought there might be several in each county.

BBM2: Sounds smart to me.

BBM3: Are you specifically looking for the ADA MMQC contacted? If so, mb she can provide more info. I suppose an ADA from outside the county, while not having jurisdiction, could still have pull. But that might be a wild goose chase.

BBM4: I haven't read the posts yet, but I believe your wish has been granted!

BBM5: Doesn't it say somewhere -- maybe NamUS -- that dental records are unavailable? Not remembering where ...

It was definitely Thomas Lloyd, per MMQC

 

[Jmoose]

Nice to see lots of people popping in here-registered members, and guests

 

[Jmoose]

I just tried again to request the private investigators pages of the Yellow Pages from 1975.

Last time I was told where in the library to find them, after my email had stated that I am out of state and NOT able to come to the library.

Hopefully I'll get a better response this time.

That was the New York Public Library?

 

[Odyssey]

That was the New York Public Library?

Yes, it was the NYPL.

 

[Angel629]

It was definitely Thomas Lloyd, per MMQC

There's a Thomas Lloyd mentioned in this woman's obituary that could possibly be him.


http://www.covenantfuneralservice.com/obituaries/carol-lloyd/

 

[GoingByMyGut]

All three posts trimmed by me to add to a single point:

Originally Posted by rosemadderlake
If LE did visit the BF/F (who no doubt realized the implications early on), would it explain, in part, the BF/F’s overall animosity; i.e. his statement about his mother’s ‘breakdown’, the subsequent fall out with Sylvia’s family, the treatment of MMQC in Dec. 1975, and radio silence from friends who knew both SL and the BF/F, then & today?

Originally Posted by GoingByMyGut
To me it would. In fact, somehow I got it in my head that MMQC told us this is what happened, but I couldn't find it anywhere. Maybe I mixed it up with G/AWSDH's posts, which do make it sound like the BF/F was questioned? That's why I posted that Q about this to MMQC a page or two ago. That would surely cause any mother a breakdown.

Originally Posted by MMQC
As of that contact with him LE had not contacted him yet. Parents still trying to get LE involved!

BBM1: Following up on the above, because I found the post that made me think this:

ASWDeerHunter, Thread 2, Post 85: "When E. L. asked the BF\f the hostile reply was the L E was on the case and was so rude she stopped calling."

BBM2: I suppose MMQC must mean here that the BF/F gave her no indication that LE had contacted him. Perhaps she also means that EL did not give her any indication that LE was doing anything yet. But ASWDeerHunter's comment (BBM3) suggests to me that LE may have called or visited the BF/F by this point, thus prompting the BF/F to say "L E was on the case."

I have the sense that the phone call ASWDeerHunter is referencing had to be early days ... I think both VIs have suggested that EL stopped calling the BF/F after only a short while. But of course we don't have an exact time frame for this.

Anyway, just glad to have put my finger on the call to the BF/F that made it sound like LE had contacted him

 

[Jmoose]

I have always thought that LE spoke to him early on-at the beginning of our discussion here, there was talk of "3 different stories" after all. I really don't think there's any way that LE wouldn't at least have tried to speak to BF/F; but what really matters to me is the quality of the conversation that they may have had-if he told them that all he knew was that they had a fight, and she exited the car at a red light (or stop sign, or in traffic) and that's all he knew...then suppose they asked to talk to him a second time, and he said he had nothing else to add, and if they wanted to talk to him again, they'd need to arrest him, then...not very productive. I am not saying that this is what happened, just sorting out in my own head how LE could have both spoken to him, and yet come away with nothing.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I can remember getting on a bus and seeing the next bus coming from a distance, that's how close together they were.

That said, one thing that seems to have obviously been overlooked - did anyone talk to the bus drivers that were on that route after Sylvia disappeared? If she'd been at a bus stop waiting for a bus, one of them absolutely would have seen her. Even if the case wasn't being treated as a crime, that seems like the first thing an investigator would do, to try to determine her whereabouts.

If none of the bus drivers had seen her, would that have prompted LE to take it a little more seriously?

Ugh.

Odyssey, Trimmed by me-

Bbm –a really good point. Would LE be able to get a search warrant at that point? -And, (sadly if not pursued) what If a bus driver had seen SL, maybe they would have remembered at what stop she got off the bus…

Does the “no publicity” mean that no pictures of SL were to be circulated locally in searching for her, or just not newspaper print, TV, radio?

So, if no pictures of Sylvia were ever shown, or questions asked by LE to the movie theater, ice cream parlor, Mall security (phones), and bus drivers to find out if she was seen (or not) by anyone else in that vicinity Saturday night, I am not sure what LE would ask the BF/F other than to check out his story? -His car? -See if he was suspicious or cooperative?

 

[alliemay]

Yes, if no publicity is wanted how can LE dispute or confirm his story?

 

[rosemadderlake]

Wondering when the copy of the police report was obtained by the family, in 1975 or 2010?

GBMG is correct –in thread #1 we were all posting as if she was last seen, ran from car at 6-6:30pm on Richmond Ave. Not until MMQC’s piece of the story did we (I) assume last seen was after the movie. It could well be EL was relaying the time her 'BF/F said he last saw her', but then going to two households much later does not make much sense. Wouldn't that have raised big red flags, back then? Maybe it did. -Wonder if LE could verify whose "time last seen" is recorded on MP reports when one person files and is relaying information from another person?

If the remaining family of SL obtained PR copy in 2010 from CC squad, I can see the confusion and outrage at things like “will not handle”. Why? And who is Detective Lennon, the contact who got back to them after the ADA stepped in? -Also, depending on one’s experience, perceptions of LE vary so greatly from absolute faith in authority, to will not ever trust LE as authority, to abject fear of authority. How did SL’s parents view LE in 1975, friend or foe? They seem foe, 38 years later...

Imo: there were sound reasons for this family to not want this publicized initially, but if they never saw the PR in 1975, and only EL reported SL missing (no other listening ear to say you forgot to mention this or that) - how would they even know the ramifications of not publicizing her disappearance locally in the first 48 hours especially to try to determine her whereabouts? If she did not have a copy of the report in 1975, how would she know specifically what to question if she were to change her mind on the publicizing Sylvia’s disappearance, say after 30 days? Especially after BF/F was uncooperative and cut off her family?

So, I guess I am seeing the “then and now” aspect of the situation a little more clearly. We can say and we would be correct, that her whereabouts may have been missed altogether by the “no publicity”. But, what is the definition of that, and was EL’s definition different than LE?

It is very difficult to piece together what never happened in 1975, and why. And, the where and who of the time last seen is still very much the mystery as well, it seems.

 

[Jmoose]

Wondering when the copy of the police report was obtained by the family, in 1975 or 2010?

GBMG is correct –in thread #1 we were all posting as if she was last seen, ran from car at 6-6:30pm on Richmond Ave. Not until MMQC’s piece of the story did we (I) assume last seen was after the movie. It could well be EL was relaying the time her 'BF/F said he last saw her', but then going to two households much later does not make much sense. Wouldn't that have raised big red flags, back then? Maybe it did. -Wonder if LE could verify whose "time last seen" is recorded on MP reports when one person files and is relaying information from another person?

If the remaining family of SL obtained PR copy in 2010 from CC squad, I can see the confusion and outrage at things like “will not handle”. Why? And who is Detective Lennon, the contact who got back to them after the ADA stepped in? -Also, depending on one’s experience, perceptions of LE vary so greatly from absolute faith in authority, to will not ever trust LE as authority, to abject fear of authority. How did SL’s parents view LE in 1975, friend or foe? They seem foe, 38 years later...

Imo: there were sound reasons for this family to not want this publicized initially, but if they never saw the PR in 1975, and only EL reported SL missing (no other listening ear to say you forgot to mention this or that) - how would they even know the ramifications of not publicizing her disappearance locally in the first 48 hours especially to try to determine her whereabouts? If she did not have a copy of the report in 1975, how would she know specifically what to question if she were to change her mind on the publicizing Sylvia’s disappearance, say after 30 days? Especially after BF/F was uncooperative and cut off her family?

So, I guess I am seeing the “then and now” aspect of the situation a little more clearly. We can say and we would be correct, that her whereabouts may have been missed altogether by the “no publicity”. But, what is the definition of that, and was EL’s definition different than LE?

It is very difficult to piece together what never happened in 1975, and why. And, the where and who of the time last seen is still very much the mystery as well, it seems.

BBM-Didn't the BF/F say she disappeared AFTER the movie? I am sure I read that he did. Of course, it doesn't make sense that he was running from MMQC's to the Lwowskis at 10 or 10:30, if she was last seen at 6-wouldn't it have been nice if the police asked to see the ticket stubs, as someone here recently asked? Well-maybe they did, actually, and we are just not aware of it. I kept thinking that the early " last time seen" came from the Lwowskis, and the place last seen came from BF/F, and it didn't register that it made no sense. Would the officer taking the report have made that mistake?

I wonder if the "no publicity" decision had its origin in a discussion with the officer they were speaking to-my police captain friend once told me that if you report someone missing, and the police get involved looking for them, it's a real hassle for the missing one if they're found by the police. Apparently it's upsetting and embarrassing, and maybe the parents wanted to spare her that public embarrassment, not realizing until it was too late, that the lack of publicity put them at a disadvantage.

 

[Odyssey]

I remember reading that MMQC dropped SL off at home at about 4pm, so it's not possible that 6pm would have been after the movie.

IIRC she still needed to shower and get ready after she was dropped off, so she probably didn't leave the house until 5 or 6...

 

[Dushi]

BBM-Didn't the BF/F say she disappeared AFTER the movie? I am sure I read that he did. Of course, it doesn't make sense that he was running from MMQC's to the Lwowskis at 10 or 10:30, if she was last seen at 6-wouldn't it have been nice if the police asked to see the ticket stubs, as someone here recently asked? Well-maybe they did, actually, and we are just not aware of it. I kept thinking that the early " last time seen" came from the Lwowskis, and the place last seen came from BF/F, and it didn't register that it made no sense. Would the officer taking the report have made that mistake?

I wonder if the "no publicity" decision had its origin in a discussion with the officer they were speaking to-my police captain friend once told me that if you report someone missing, and the police get involved looking for them, it's a real hassle for the missing one if they're found by the police. Apparently it's upsetting and embarrassing, and maybe the parents wanted to spare her that public embarrassment, not realizing until it was too late, that the lack of publicity put them at a disadvantage.

BBm

Yes , that is exactly as i saw it
I expect the police could have seen it the same way
They never talked to MMQC at that time

 

[rosemadderlake]

BBM-Didn't the BF/F say she disappeared AFTER the movie? I am sure I read that he did. Of course, it doesn't make sense that he was running from MMQC's to the Lwowskis at 10 or 10:30, if she was last seen at 6-wouldn't it have been nice if the police asked to see the ticket stubs, as someone here recently asked? Well-maybe they did, actually, and we are just not aware of it. I kept thinking that the early " last time seen" came from the Lwowskis, and the place last seen came from BF/F, and it didn't register that it made no sense. Would the officer taking the report have made that mistake?

I wonder if the "no publicity" decision had its origin in a discussion with the officer they were speaking to-my police captain friend once told me that if you report someone missing, and the police get involved looking for them, it's a real hassle for the missing one if they're found by the police. Apparently it's upsetting and embarrassing, and maybe the parents wanted to spare her that public embarrassment, not realizing until it was too late, that the lack of publicity put them at a disadvantage.

I see a BF/F return to SL's home in the timeline: I am sure there is more that was explained that evening, but I see how the thought process was in rereading the beginning of thread #1 (we were not sure what time SL was last seen) and how the pieces did not add up too easily. The Lwowskis may have had a copy of the PR in '75 and it is the next generation that is understandably questioning the assumptions of everything, today.

Timeline
10:30 PM: BF/F drives to SL’s residence and explains what happened. ASWDeerHunter: “BF/F returned to the house approx. 10:30 stating that during an argument Sylvia had thrown her glasses against the dash board of the car and ran off.” (MMQC: “I truly don't remember BF/F EVER going to parents home that night.” and re EL: “She never mentioned to me that BF/F ever came by.”)

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9145230&highlight=uncertainty#post9145230

bbm: -I agree. The run away climate of the 70's was a factor - part of it is generational thing, a small town and community consideration for 'SL, when she returns'. -And keeping the door open, always.

 

[rosemadderlake]

BBm

Yes , that is exactly as i saw it
I expect the police could have seen it the same way
They never talked to MMQC at that time

bbm: -And, did EL not relay this piece to LE in 1975, I wonder?
I am thinking of Det. Savage's question to MMQC about not being contacted by LE in '75.

Dushi -jumping off your post, here: Did LE know all the pieces in 1975, or not until 2010? What about the ADA? -I would think the BF/F contacting two households, setting off two searches (that we are aware of) for her that night, would have established great concern by several parties. ...in other words, not a typical runaway...

 

[Jmoose]

I remember reading that MMQC dropped SL off at home at about 4pm, so it's not possible that 6pm would have been after the movie.

IIRC she still needed to shower and get ready after she was dropped off, so she probably didn't leave the house until 5 or 6...

I sort of envisioned a 7 o'clock movie for them, with some time after the movie to stop someplace for something to eat maybe. I so seldom see a first-run movie, that I don't know how the times typically would run, or more to the point, would have run then in the days before huge multiplex theaters.

 

[alliemay]

I sort of envisioned a 7 o'clock movie for them, with some time after the movie to stop someplace for something to eat maybe. I so seldom see a first-run movie, that I don't know how the times typically would run, or more to the point, would have run then in the days before huge multiplex theaters.

I was thinking about this also. There are usually several show times for movies. Some people choose to get something to eat before they sit through a movie, some decide to get something to eat afterwards. I would assume that because Sylvia was shopping and running out of time to go home and shower/change for the date, it's possible she did not have time to eat, so the plan was to get something to eat with the BF/F. We don't even know what movie they were going to see, would they have decided to see the movie Jaws because of her interest in the ocean? What were the show times? .....not sure but I think it was MMQC that may have used the line "after the movie" the BF/F .....etc, can't remember the rest now.

 

[Odyssey]

I can't remember if this was covered or not...

Did we ever get a feel for how SL's family felt about BF/F prior to this incident? Did he generally come across as rude or was it a surprise to see him behave this way on that night?

Is it possible that EL said 'no publicity' because she considered BF/F part of the family and knew that publicity would make him look bad at his job, etc?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that back then, the parents had quite a bit of influence on who their daughter married, so you'd think he'd be on his best behavior and very respectful to her parents...

It seems as though his rudeness that night (if he was generally 'gracious') would hint that he knew he didn't have to worry about their approval for a marriage anymore. Whether what means a break-up or worse, I think it was more than a spat. And the account of the ring in his possession also points to more than a spat...

 

[Jmoose]

I can't remember if this was covered or not...

Did we ever get a feel for how SL's family felt about BF/F prior to this incident? Did he generally come across as rude or was it a surprise to see him behave this way on that night?

Is it possible that EL said 'no publicity' because she considered BF/F part of the family and knew that publicity would make him look bad at his job, etc?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that back then, the parents had quite a bit of influence on who their daughter married, so you'd think he'd be on his best behavior and very respectful to her parents...

It seems as though his rudeness that night (if he was generally 'gracious') would hint that he knew he didn't have to worry about their approval for a marriage anymore. Whether what means a break-up or worse, I think it was more than a spat. And the account of the ring in his possession also points to more than a spat...

I have tried several times to get an answer about this from the VIs, without success. I don't have the sense that either of them were ever crazy about him, and then doing an "about-face" after Sylvia's disappearance. I really think the reluctance to publicize was to protect Sylvia, and not him-how does anyone else feel about this?

 

[Odyssey]

I have tried several times to get an answer about this from the VIs, without success. I don't have the sense that either of them were ever crazy about him, and then doing an "about-face" after Sylvia's disappearance. I really think the reluctance to publicize was to protect Sylvia, and not him-how does anyone else feel about this?

I think my last post came out a little wrong...

I guess I meant that I thought (from the perspective of a parent of a soon to be bride) it would be in SL's best interest that BF/F not be in any sort of jeopardy associated with being a suspect in a crime. That is, assuming they believed what BF/F said happened.