NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

[epiphany]

IF suicide, not carried out in the home nor in area where body likely to be easily discovered. Therefore, may have viewed as sparing family members of some pain.

 

[alliemay]

Unless she met someone that helped her leave I have a hard time seeing that. Sylvia seemed submissive to the people around her. MMQC said the Sylvia mostly went along with the the BF/F wanted to do. MMQC said she was the "bolder" of the two, so I can see Sylvia going along with what her friend wanted to do at times. The one friend I talked to that went to her high school, said the only thing she remembered about Sylvia was that she was nice person, and quiet. Sylvia didn't have a job, and and far as we know, no future job prospects. She didn't have a car, we are not even sure she had a license. I think the only way I can see her leaving on her own is if she had met someone that helped her do it, because I don't see her as a strong enough person to do this alone. It seems she was very dependent on the people in her circle.

 

[epiphany]

I think it is very telling that SL was still reacting to the termination in an obvious way so long after (a prior MMQC post).

 

[rosemadderlake]

Unless she met someone that helped her leave I have a hard time seeing that. Sylvia seemed submissive to the people around her. MMQC said the Sylvia mostly went along with the the BF/F wanted to do. MMQC said she was the "bolder" of the two, so I can see Sylvia going along with what her friend wanted to do at times. The one friend I talked to that went to her high school, said the only thing she remembered about Sylvia was that she was nice person, and quiet. Sylvia didn't have a job, and and far as we know, no future job prospects. She didn't have a car, we are not even sure she had a license. I think the only way I can see her leaving on her own is if she had met someone that helped her do it, because I don't see her as a strong enough person to do this alone. It seems she was very dependent on the people in her circle.

Bbm: Yes, I think IF she left, it was with someone. I don't see her circles as necessarily small, though. I don't think her family or BGF knew how many people Sylvia may have known.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I think it is very telling that SL was still reacting to the termination in an obvious way so long after (a prior MMQC post).

Telling of what -- pregnancy? That was July and in response to the birth of a baby under the same roof.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Some Holocaust survivors were tattooed with numbers on their forearm because they were ID'd and spared. If EL's family was killed in WWII Germany, unless Sylvia went off deep end completely, I do not see her ending her life knowing what that would do to her mother who might have to be the one to identify her... I see her leaving instead.

ETA: I see the "fighting" and "running from" as outward displays of emotion which make me lean in the direction of leaving, accident, or was harmed. I know that young suicides can be really spontaneous, though, but still I would be very surprised... shocked.

Yes, me too. Full of intense energy. It certainly doesn't fit with the kind of depression we were talking about yesterday.

 

[epiphany]

Unless she met someone that helped her leave I have a hard time seeing that. Sylvia seemed submissive to the people around her. MMQC said the Sylvia mostly went along with the the BF/F wanted to do. MMQC said she was the "bolder" of the two, so I can see Sylvia going along with what her friend wanted to do at times. The one friend I talked to that went to her high school, said the only thing she remembered about Sylvia was that she was nice person, and quiet. Sylvia didn't have a job, and and far as we know, no future job prospects. She didn't have a car, we are not even sure she had a license. I think the only way I can see her leaving on her own is if she had met someone that helped her do it, because I don't see her as a strong enough person to do this alone. It seems she was very dependent on the people in her circle.

And although I view the termination as a touch of independent thinking, I tend to view her similarly.

 

[epiphany]

Telling of what -- pregnancy? That was July and in response to the birth of a baby under the same roof.

IMO, it's telling of SL's emotional state.

 

[epiphany]

Telling of what -- pregnancy? That was July and in response to the birth of a baby under the same roof.

If not "depressed" and "no publicity" on the PR and emotional at pool party, I may not give so much weight to SL's visible response to the birth of a baby in July.

Additionally, she's just graduated; she's engaged, etc. Freedom is around the bend.

 

[epiphany]

When does one not give an approximate date (a month or season and a year) for the wedding...Especially after an engagement party with both families and newspaper announcements?

MOO: If it's way off in the future (career reasons, saving money), or one person is unclear about when they want to tie it all up.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Unless she met someone that helped her leave I have a hard time seeing that. Sylvia seemed submissive to the people around her. MMQC said the Sylvia mostly went along with the the BF/F wanted to do. MMQC said she was the "bolder" of the two, so I can see Sylvia going along with what her friend wanted to do at times. The one friend I talked to that went to her high school, said the only thing she remembered about Sylvia was that she was nice person, and quiet. Sylvia didn't have a job, and and far as we know, no future job prospects. She didn't have a car, we are not even sure she had a license. I think the only way I can see her leaving on her own is if she had met someone that helped her do it, because I don't see her as a strong enough person to do this alone. It seems she was very dependent on the people in her circle.

BBMs1&3: I agree. But this isn't necessarily a permanent condition. Sometimes people like this feel they can't "break out" of the patterns they are in with the people around them unless they leave. It's hard to change yourself, but it's also hard to change the way people around you react to you. If she was trying to assert herself, but felt hemmed in by the stronger personalities around her, I could see flight. For all the reasons you say, it doesn't make strategic sense, but people do it. Was her world rocked enough to make her do it impulsively? Who knows.

BBM2: And here is another entry point to anonymous foul play. Someone who magically makes it easy.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

If not "depressed" and "no publicity" on the PR and emotional at pool party, I may not give so much weight to SL's visible response to the birth of a baby in July.

Additionally, she's just graduated; she's engaged, etc. Freedom is around the bend.

Or going from the frying pan into the fire ...

She was walking such a traditional, expected path ... maybe she was beginning to see that it might be nice to try something different first. I think 25 is SO young. Engaged at 24! She was just coming into herself. Day by day, I expect she would have just been learning who she was and what she really wanted. Anything is possible. JMO

 

[epiphany]

Mom may have known whether or not she was using birth control pills as a contraceptive.

If there were none found in the home, someone may have investigated with the local pharmacists. Let's speculate: no prescription for BC pill discovered. If she still was covered by father's insurance, someone may have discovered an ob/gyn appointment. Let's speculate: could not discover any such appointment via insurance.

She may not have been on birth control pills, and therefore may have become pregnant again.

I saw in one of the WC papers a poster linked to...there was an advertisement for Eastern Women's Center in Manhattan for women's ob/gyn medical care. Given the timing of SL's pregnancy and termination, as well as the year abortion became legal in NYS, IMO, that is where SL would have sought assistance. But SL did not head into Manhattan as a rule (nor did she have access to vehicle) according to MMQC (for BC pills, periodic exam, prescription, etc).

Either she carried around her birth control pills in her handbag each time she left the home (I doubt that), or she was not on the pill. Had she stashed them in parents home, they would have eventually been discovered (had she not been carrying them around).

IMO, she was not on BC pill. Nothing was found in the home, and Mom either already knew not on BC pill or ruled out she was not. Therefore, good possibility she may have been pregnant (again). But...only my opinion and speculation.

 

[epiphany]

The medical center was in another's poster's post linking to one of WC pubs...It was an advertisement in the WC paper.

 

[alliemay]

Yes if she was on them, how would she have paid for them without a job. If using the father's insurance the mother would find out. I really can't see the BF/F paying for them. Also the fact the MMQC didn't follow up her statement with "I know she was on birth control" after stating that Sylvia would not have put herself in that position again,
leads me to think that she really wasn't on anything.

 

[Jmoose]

Does anyone know how Planned Parenthood works? Were/are you able to obtain birth control pills from them without having insurance, at a steeply discounted rate, or even for free? Just thinking she could have gone this route, if she did use them. My guess might be no, and that another option might have been used.

 

[rosemadderlake]

When does one not give an approximate date (a month or season and a year) for the wedding...Especially after an engagement party with both families and newspaper announcements?

MOO: If it's way off in the future (career reasons, saving money), or one person is unclear about when they want to tie it all up.

bbm: Imo: This could really tie in to Sylvia's 'reaction to' and 'feelings about' having a child when the next door baby was born in July: her desires, her unspoken feelings if she didn't tell her BFF how strongly she felt about it, or her regret about the abortion, her desires for the future. Did she have that level of intimacy in her relationship? Could she speak the truth for herself? If not, and the future didn't have a clear picture, or a hesitant one, maybe she was seeing the truth through the experience of a young couple with their newborn baby.

It's about what comes bubbling up when one is young and just going through the motions. Her plans at this age (young), what was expected of her as the future Mrs., walking into a role that was submissive by nature in its traditional structure.

I also wonder if her whole college experience in all its training to be an academic, and an independent thinker, was suppressed, discounted, diminished in this time period after graduation.

These are the makings of a spiritual crisis.

 

[alliemay]

Yes, when she started college she knew what her path would be for the next four years, but after, when it was over, things were unclear. If no wedding date is set, do you continue to live with parents. Do you live on your own? With no job or license, living on your own would seem impossible. I often wonder why during her years at college she didn't have part time jobs. I could just imagine the confusion of not knowing where your path was going. Especially if you had doubts about a future marriage where there was not even a date set for that. Or doubts about your feelings of love for this person.

 

[Jmoose]

Was Sylvia's fiance in any grad school courses, I wonder? He was a few years older than she was, and it makes me wonder if maybe he was, and that might account for the delay in setting a date. They each lived at home with their parents (per MMQC), neither appeared to be employed full time I think. Maybe there's a reasonable answer for why there was no wedding date set or plans made, aside from the engagement announcement and ring.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Does anyone know how Planned Parenthood works? Were/are you able to obtain birth control pills from them without having insurance, at a steeply discounted rate, or even for free? Just thinking she could have gone this route, if she did use them. My guess might be no, and that another option might have been used.

Yes, I was just going to post about this. At this point in time, these clinics were anonymous, and as this was pre-HMO, most people's insurance would have only paid through reimbursement, right? I am not positive about the latter, but it's what I remember from my own family. The only way there would have been records would have been if SL wanted it that way.

As I think I said earlier (tho it may have been in one of the deleted posts), I think that since PP is where SL had the termination, this is where she would have been prescribed BC in some form (they also gave out diaphragms and condoms at this time). I believe whatever they gave her would have been free. BC was their mission.

MMQC didn't tell us the location of the clinic right? I have always assumed it was on SI, but I have no basis for that. If Manhattan, I think they might have taken PT, but we know MMQC drove her there.

Also, MMQC said SL had no job, but also said SL had money -- gifts, summer work, and presumably occasional babysitting?

ETA: Because birth control was PP's mission, termination came with education. Before and after the procedure, SL would have been made aware of the BC options available to her and would have been given everything she needed for future encounters.