SOLVED NY - Tala Farea, 16, Rotana Farea, 22, Hudson River, 24 Oct 2018- COD released: suicide/drowning

[bears10]

I am a counselor, not a social worker. I work with teens and have had many who leave home for a period of time-- ending up with friends, couch surfing, teen shelters or staying with relatives. This might help.... go to page 14.....

https://www.americanbar.org/content...ecenter/runaway_2003_revised.authcheckdam.pdf

Thanks! I think I remember your previous posts and that you’re based in NY so I’ll assume the info in this link pertains to NY and not just CA. It seems like option 3 or 4 would pertain to them I guess. Since they supposedly asked for protection, I would lean towards 4, but there’s been no mention of CPS being involved.

- if they took her to a shelter for youth runaways, is it reasonable to believe that Rotana would be eligible to go to such a shelter?

- if they went to an emergency CPS shelter because they were scared to go home, it seems CPS would have been involved with the family at some point.

I guess time will tell. Supposedly there will be a statement or PC tomorrow I think.

Eta I just realized the link is from 15 years ago, so I wonder if anything’s changed with regards to these laws.

 

[bears10]

With that travel itinerary laid out, I have to wonder if they took the Acela (amtrak corridor) from D.C. to Philly to NYC. If so, there may be ticket records/ transactions from Union Station embarking that can be discovered, to pin point their travel better.

They could have taken regular D.C. metro (rail and/ or bus) to get from Alexandria/ Fairfax to Union Station. It might be harder to track if they took metro bus or rail to Union Station-- easier to buy anonymous tickets from a vending machine. (Or, they could have had a pass of some kind.)

Or if they used something like Lyft/ Uber-- there would be more records to mine.

Just musing on the possible travel itinerary. Acela was first thing I thought of when I saw "D.C. - Philly - NYC" in the article.

Hopefully we’ll find out soon. I have a feeling LE knows the details of their travels as well as more info on their time in NY, but that’s just a gut feeling I’m going off of.

 

[bears10]

Teens can ask for an alternate placement or other interventions before they are forcibly returned home. Usually when teens are trying to leave home, the dynamic can be volatile or not conducive to a simple returning. There are emergency shelters just for teens in many areas of the country, especially cities. The police and social services recognize that if a child is forcibly returned chances are they will run away again. Each time a teen goes on the run, the situation gets more desperate--- they seek to hide better, look to make money in any way they can to get further away, or make choices that can be progressively destructive (befriending an older companions, doing drugs, or getting tricked into trafficking scenarios). More often than not police and social services are very good at helping parents understand that a little distance can help in the ultimate reunification, especially if counseling and mediation-type meetings are part of the process. Building trust and creating a pathway home while addressing the issues that are present are achievable if all parties are invested. My experience is that most teens really want to be home but the relationship issues do need to be addressed.

I feel like these girls aren’t most teens and they didn’t really want to be home. Rotana was 22 (23?), she wasn’t a kid anymore. I think they truly wanted away. We’ll see. I’m interested to hear what classmates have to say. I can’t imagine neither girl made any friends in 3 years.

 

[OneEye]

This is very interesting.. makes me think now everybody is in on it.

Thank you to the person that posted the wondeful article on the case in Canada. So much good information and very informative on a variety of topics possibly relevant to this case.

 

[K_Z]

Do you know if he would have had to get approval from the KSA govt to travel, req'd a US visa or could he have just driven to the airport with no restrictions to come to the US?

Yes, as far as I know all Saudi nationals need a visa to travel to the U.S.

However, none of us know what his job or position is, what his background check is, and whether he has some kind of multi-entry/ exit visa, or a resident visa/ green card. We just have no idea at this point "who" the dad is, whether he has connections to the Saudi govt or royal family, or is just a mid- level citizen with some kind of job that allows him to send his kids to school in the U.S. and visit them in the U.S.

We also don't know how many total wives he has-- our western ideas persuade us that the mom here was his "only" wife, but it's quite possible he has 3 other wives in KSA or elsewhere, since he is apparently wealthy enough to send a wife and 3 kids abroad to the U.S. Maybe that's why he wasn't in the U.S. very often? He was splitting his time between several wives and kids?

I do think that given the awful circumstances of his 2 daughters being found dead under suspicious circumstances in the Hudson River, and under a missing person investigation for minor Tala prior to that, he could have probably qualified to receive expedited U.S. permission (if he needed it) to come to the U.S. to handle their affairs, cooperate with the death investigation, etc. I can't imagine that would take 4+ days. I think it is extremely odd that it took him that long to arrive in NY from KSA-- but that's just my take on it.

Here is what I found for U.S. visa requirements for Saudi citizens with a quick search.

Visa requirements for Saudi citizens - Wikipedia

Travel Without a Visa

 

[kaen]

Thanks! I think I remember your previous posts and that you’re based in NY so I’ll assume the info in this link pertains to NY and not just CA. It seems like option 3 or 4 would pertain to them I guess. Since they supposedly asked for protection, I would lean towards 4, but there’s been no mention of CPS being involved.

- if they took her to a shelter for youth runaways, is it reasonable to believe that Rotana would be eligible to go to such a shelter?

- if they went to an emergency CPS shelter because they were scared to go home, it seems CPS would have been involved with the family at some point.

I guess time will tell. Supposedly there will be a statement or PC tomorrow I think.

Laws aren't necessarily the same but the spirit is very close. It is important to help a runaway get stabilized and support in order to ensure they are safe over time.

I don't know where the 16 year old went initially--- but my best guess would be that it was not a protective services placement b/c protective services would have a paper trail including court. My guess is that the family would not have wanted that either. I assume that the placement was a teen shelter. Shelters can set their ages, but it is usually 16-21 years of age. There has to be particular care made in the setting of the program structure to address issues that may arise in the age spread. Most programs offer social workers to help support mental health issues, connection to GED/educational support, and job training. I have certainly had students who continued to come to school while living at an emergency teen shelter.

My guess (without seeing any definitive information) is that as the older sister was 22, options for placements together may have been fewer. In NYC, they may have had access to extended family or if the older sister was in a college they may have had access to a dorm or low cost living that had been paid for by the family. Ideally, most organizations would have tried to keep them together if at all possible-- strong ties, the older one helping to ground the younger one, and parents willing to not push for reunification if they know the 16 yo is under the watchful eye of her sister.

 

[Inthedetails]

With that travel itinerary laid out, I have to wonder if they took the Acela (amtrak corridor) from D.C. to Philly to NYC. If so, there may be ticket records/ transactions from Union Station embarking that can be discovered, to pin point their travel better.

They could have taken regular D.C. metro (rail and/ or bus) to get from Alexandria/ Fairfax to Union Station. It might be harder to track if they took metro bus or rail to Union Station-- easier to buy anonymous tickets from a vending machine. (Or, they could have had a pass of some kind.)

Or if they used something like Lyft/ Uber-- there would be more records to mine.

Just musing on the possible travel itinerary. Acela was first thing I thought of when I saw "D.C. - Philly - NYC" in the article.

There is also Megabus and Bolt - which are inexpensive buses with routes to those cities. I'm pretty sure you have to buy the bus tickets online.

jmo

 

[kaen]

I feel like these girls aren’t most teens and they didn’t really want to be home. Rotana was 22 (23?), she wasn’t a kid anymore. I think they truly wanted away. We’ll see. I’m interested to hear what classmates have to say. I can’t imagine neither girl made any friends in 3 years.

You may be right but from a placement perspective, the dynamic may have been heavy pressure, severely limiting freedom, etc. This is how the police would see the situation and tackle it without looking at the SA issues per se, not necessarily how the girls saw it.

 

[kaen]

There is also Megabus and Bolt - which are inexpensive buses with routes to those cities. I'm pretty sure you have to buy the bus tickets online.

jmo

You can show up at Megabus stops and get on without an online ticket. The NYC/DC corridor has many very inexpensive bus options beyond those two carriers.

 

[bears10]

Yes, as far as I know all Saudi nationals need a visa to travel to the U.S.

However, none of us know what his job or position is, what his background check is, and whether he has some kind of multi-entry/ exit visa, or a resident visa/ green card. We just have no idea at this point "who" the dad is, whether he has connections to the Saudi govt or royal family, or is just a mid- level citizen with some kind of job that allows him to send his kids to school in the U.S. and visit them in the U.S.

I do think that given the awful circumstances of his 2 daughters being found dead under suspicious circumstances in the Hudson River, and under a missing person investigation for minor Tala prior to that, he could have probably qualified to receive expedited U.S. permission (if he needed it) to come to the U.S. to handle their affairs, cooperate with the death investigation, etc. I can't imagine that would take 4+ days. I think it is extremely odd that it took him that long to arrive in NY from KSA-- but that's just my take on it.

Here is what I found for U.S. visa requirements for Saudi citizens with a quick search.

Visa requirements for Saudi citizens - Wikipedia

Travel Without a Visa

Did it take 4 days though? When were the girls identified? I am having trouble pinpointing bc so many older articles just update with new info so I can’t go by the dates on the articles. But for some reason I think they were IDed on Friday and he got here on Sunday. Which would seem reasonable to me. But if anyone can post the date they were IDed that would be great

 

[Inthedetails]

You can show up at Megabus stops and get on without an online ticket. The NYC/DC corridor has many very inexpensive bus options beyond those two carriers.

That might be an option for them to travel without the family easily finding out where they went.

jmo, speculation.

 

[OneEye]

Thanks! I think I remember your previous posts and that you’re based in NY so I’ll assume the info in this link pertains to NY and not just CA. It seems like option 3 or 4 would pertain to them I guess. Since they supposedly asked for protection, I would lean towards 4, but there’s been no mention of CPS being involved.

- if they took her to a shelter for youth runaways, is it reasonable to believe that Rotana would be eligible to go to such a shelter?

- if they went to an emergency CPS shelter because they were scared to go home, it seems CPS would have been involved with the family at some point.

I guess time will tell. Supposedly there will be a statement or PC tomorrow I think.

Eta I just realized the link is from 15 years ago, so I wonder if anything’s changed with regards to these laws.

As a non US citizen myself I wonder whether non US citizens are treated the same way as US citizens? In this case we had two non US citizens, we don't know if they had formal US residency status, they could have been on student visas or some other visa arrangement. It seems like usually when an issue arises for non citizens the matter is referred to the person's local embassy. Maybe the sisters asked NYPD for assistance in seeking asylum if this is what in fact happened as its unclear from the NYPD statements on the topic.

 

[bears10]

That might be an option for them to travel without the family easily finding out where they went.

jmo, speculation.

LE is apparently following their footsteps in part by credit card/atm activity. I am shocked the parents seemingly weren’t able to access the girls bank info on their own. That the girls (or at least one of them) had their own bank account. Where/how were they getting money?

 

[borndem]

I wonder what the circumstances were around mom and daughters coming to the USA and dad staying behind. Do we know exactly when they got here in the US and for what purpose?

That they were women might be enuff. Seriously.

Maybe the husband/father was anticipating coming to the US in some official capacity, or perhaps some family members were already in the US.
Education for one of the sons (if any) or daughters?

 

[bears10]

As a non US citizen myself I wonder whether non US citizens are treated the same way as US citizens? In this case we had two non US citizens, we don't know if they had formal US residency status, they could have been on student visas or some other visa arrangement. It seems like usually when an issue arises for non citizens the matter is referred to the person's local embassy. Maybe the sisters asked NYPD for assistance in seeking asylum if this is what in fact happened as its unclear from the NYPD statements on the topic.

The girls never met with NYPD as far as i understand. Their interactions with LE and the shelter situation were in VA. But in regards to the rest of your post I am of no help because I don’t know anything about their visas or how non citizen issues get handled.

 

[OneEye]

The girls never met with NYPD as far as i understand. Their interactions with LE and the shelter situation were in VA. But in regards to the rest of your post I am of no help because I don’t know anything about their visas or how non citizen issues get handled.

Thanks. Thats interesting though as from one of the early articles I thought I understood that the sisters were living in a shelter in NYC. Has anyone seen confirmation of where the sisters were staying in NY? I will go back to the early articles to see what was said as I'm now confused. I recall the issue of them being in an apt. in VA that was referred to as a shelter of some sort but then we saw the same of an individual on the lease that had the same last name as the sisters. I'm confused.

 

[borndem]

They were tied together by at least one other person and dumped in the water. I believe they were deceased first. I also believe LE is being tight-lipped about cause of death because they've realized this was not a suicide and they don't want to mess up the investigation.

bbm
Good points.
The autopsy should indicate if they drowned or were deceased before they went into the water. If they were deceased before they were in the river, that would make it look like foul play for sure, IMO. I hope we will get those details soon.
We'll have to wait and see how tight-lipped LE is. They may not want a perpetrator -- if there is one -- to know what they found. If so, we'll be waiting some more. But we're pretty good at waiting, aren't we? We don't like it, but we know how to do it...<sigh>

 

[K_Z]

@K_Z Do you know why only Rotana has her head covered in her passport photo and not tala? Do minors not need to cover themselves? Just curious and figured you’d be best to ask.

Do we know for sure those are even passport images? Because the pic of Tala sure doesn't look like a 12-13 yo-- she looks older than that. I don't know what the current pp photo update requirements are for Saudi citizens, or if those pics could be from some other kind of ID cards issued in the U.S. such as a student ID.

As far as why Tala was not wearing a head cover, and Rotana was, I have no idea. Would be helpful to know, as I posted earlier, whether they typically covered while living in Fairfax/ Alexandria, and whether or when they stopped covering.

As far as what I remember seeing while in KSA, it appears that somewhere around 9-10 years of age most of the little girls begin to cover. I saw many, many little girls in stores, etc. accompanied by fully covered females (probably moms, aunts, grandmas, older sisters, wearing abaya, and full face niqabs). These uncovered little girls were dressed to the nines in stores and malls, etc, fancy party dresses, glossy thick hair arranged beautifully, etc. As I recall, these were still "little" girls, not entering puberty. As I recall, all the girls appear to cover by the time they begin to develop breasts, or are about 5 feet tall. (I'm not an expert on this, though!)

Where I live now in the U.S. we have a huge population of muslim African immigrants, primarily Somalia and Ethiopia. From my observations, little girls here begin wearing a one piece "training hijab" around the age of 5, along with regular long sleeves, loose clothing, and dresses over pants. There are many, many teen girls who wear the traditional black flowing outer garment and head scarf, as well as some who don't, and just wear a hijab, and long lycra skirts with flowy blouses and long sleeve undershirts.

KSA is MUCH, MUCH stricter than what I see Somali and Ethiopian women wearing here. Many Saudi women wear the face veil, though I don't think it is "required" by the religious police in all areas of KSA. Just head cover and abaya. I had to cover my head in Riyadh, but not in coastal areas. But I am a western woman, and so had some different rules while there. I never, ever saw a Saudi woman with a bare head, or not wearing an abaya, while in KSA.

 

[kaen]

As a non US citizen myself I wonder whether non US citizens are treated the same way as US citizens? In this case we had two non US citizens, we don't know if they had formal US residency status, they could have been on student visas or some other visa arrangement. It seems like usually when an issue arises for non citizens the matter is referred to the person's local embassy. Maybe the sisters asked NYPD for assistance in seeking asylum if this is what in fact happened as its unclear from the NYPD statements on the topic.

In my area, runaways are not asked about citizenship. Not sure in VA, though. It is important to remember that when mom found out that the 16 yo was with her sister, the case became non-active. Yes, the poster was up but no one appeared to be looking for her. I think the NY Post stated that mom knew where they were up until she lost contact the week before they were found. Not a runaway situation if mom knew where they were and they were in contact.

They could have just asked for asylum directly or used Legal Aid to help them ascertain how to seek asylum.

 

[bears10]

Thanks. Thats interesting though as from one of the early articles I thought I understood that the sisters were living in a shelter in NYC. Has anyone seen confirmation of where the sisters were staying in NY? I will go back to the early articles to see what was said as I'm now confused. I recall the issue of them being in an apt. in VA that was referred to as a shelter of some sort but then we saw the same of an individual on the lease that had the same last name as the sisters. I'm confused.

It was probably one of the Arab news articles. Their articles have caused me a lot of confusion and contradict most other MSM. JMO