NY - Woman to become NY firefighter despite failing crucial fitness test

[jjenny]

I'm curious. I wonder if there were male candidates who failed the FST and were hired, in spite of it.

There are people who didn't have to pass that test at all, because NYFD didn't require it for many years. Presumably mostly men, since only 0.5% females work for that fire department.

 

[jjenny]

Yes, this is true per all the above linked articles. She was already on the list. No special treatment there.

I do agree that any applicant to a FD ought to be able to pass whatever test is required, provided that test is the same for any and all applicants. This appears to be the case here.

It might be overdoing it to require the more strenuous physical test, but this is the NYFD standard and it isn't some secret, I would imagine. When you train, you KNOW this is the expectation.

They didn't drop the FST test specifically for her either. Decision was already made. They also didn't require it for many years. So obviously they have people working as firefighters who didn't have to pass it. And we have no way of knowing whether they would have passed it or not.
"After the hearing, Nigro said passing the skills tests had only been required of the two most recent classes — and not for any of the 15 years before."
http://nypost.com/2014/12/11/fdny-drops-physical-test-requirement-amid-low-female-hiring-rate/

 

[Lulu14]

So they wanted you to pick the wrong answer? What kind of multiple choice exam is that?

It baffles me how people seem not to understand this problem. They want you to chose the answer that is most accurately descriptive.

For instance. An alien comes and visits Earth, and writes a report about an animal he encountered. Which is the definition that is most usable for his fellow aliens when they stop by:

A. a cute, fluffy thing.
B. a mammal with 4 legs.
C. a small domesticated carnivorous mammal with soft fur, a short snout, and retractile claws.
4. a black animal.

Do you understand what they want now?

 

[screecher]

They didn't drop the FST test specifically for her either. Decision was already made. They also didn't require it for many years. So obviously they have people working as firefighters who didn't have to pass it. And we have no way of knowing whether they would have passed it or not.
"After the hearing, Nigro said passing the skills tests had only been required of the two most recent classes — and not for any of the 15 years before."
http://nypost.com/2014/12/11/fdny-drops-physical-test-requirement-amid-low-female-hiring-rate/

Obviously, those previous firefighters passed all the exams given and met all the requirements to become a firefighter .
One can't pass (or fail) an exam if it is not there to pass or fail.

 

[screecher]

There are people who didn't have to pass that test at all, because NYFD didn't require it for many years. Presumably mostly men, since only 0.5% females work for that fire department.

This^post reads as FDNY included the FST in with other tests to be taken (back before and up to 2007), but did not require the firefighter to "pass" the FST to be hired? Am I understanding the post?

 

[Nova]

So Wall had FOUR years to train and get fit. On her own or with a trainer. FOUR FREAKIN' YEARS to get fit. So she could pass the FST.

I do wonder what her score was on the civil service exam and what number she was listed as.

IIRC, one of the links mentions that her score was above average on the written portion.

She passed the test that every firefighter in the country has to pass; she just didn't finish in time the brand-new test now required in New York.

 

[jjenny]

It baffles me how people seem not to understand this problem. They want you to chose the answer that is most accurately descriptive.

For instance. An alien comes and visits Earth, and writes a report about an animal he encountered. Which is the definition that is most usable for his fellow aliens when they stop by:

A. a cute, fluffy thing.
B. a mammal with 4 legs.
C. a small domesticated carnivorous mammal with soft fur, a short snout, and retractile claws.
4. a black animal.

Do you understand what they want now?

What if the animal this alien encountered was a frog? Or a mouse? Again, you providing information in your answer that is not present in the question. If I have no idea what animal this alien encountered, how do you expect me to know the answer to this question?

 

[Cubby]

“Every graduate met the standards” for graduation, said Fire Commissioner Daniel Nigro after the ceremony.
“The requirements have changed with every class,” he added. “Those that met them graduated today.”
He also pointed out that some 15 other cadets who had entered the fire academy with Wax did not complete the requirements for graduation, and as a result, were no longer in the running for consideration as firefighters.
Wax, however, met the standards for elevation to probationary firefighter.




<snip>

“People disagreeing with Rebecca graduating,” said Srisakul, “illegally leaked information to the press. That is what we cannot stand.”
Finding out who leaked Wax’s scores is punishable by potential jail time,

http://pix11.com/2015/05/05/newest-...rucial-fitness-exam-leaked-test-results-show/

 

[Cubby]

What if the animal this alien encountered was a frog? Or a mouse? Again, you providing information in your answer that is not present in the question. If I have no idea what animal this alien encountered, how do you expect me to know the answer to this question?

Respectfully, you are misinterpreting the question. The question is not asking what animal the alien saw. The question is asking for the most descriptive answer of the choices......

 

[Nova]

What if the animal this alien encountered was a frog? Or a mouse? Again, you providing information in your answer that is not present in the question. If I have no idea what animal this alien encountered, how do you expect me to know the answer to this question?

jenny, you're thinking in terms of of the "content" of the responses, i.e., which one is true or accurate.

But this isn't that kind of test. This test measures the "style" of the response, i.e., whether the testtaker can distinguish between specific and vague information.

There is no fire and no corner. The correct answer is the one described with the greatest specificity.

(The SAT and GRE are famous for their analogies. As I said above, when I was applying to grad school, I was thrown by the analogies because each question seemed to have several correct answers. But I quickly realized that they preferred some aspects of analogies (identical functions, say) while considering others (same size and shape ) "wrong". It's just the way tests work.)

 

[screecher]

&#8220;Every graduate met the standards&#8221; for graduation, said Fire Commissioner Daniel Nigro after the ceremony.
&#8220;The requirements have changed with every class,&#8221; he added. &#8220;Those that met them graduated today.&#8221;
He also pointed out that some 15 other cadets who had entered the fire academy with Wax did not complete the requirements for graduation, and as a result, were no longer in the running for consideration as firefighters.
Wax, however, met the standards for elevation to probationary firefighter.




<snip>

&#8220;People disagreeing with Rebecca graduating,&#8221; said Srisakul, &#8220;illegally leaked information to the press. That is what we cannot stand.&#8221;
Finding out who leaked Wax&#8217;s scores is punishable by potential jail time,

http://pix11.com/2015/05/05/newest-...rucial-fitness-exam-leaked-test-results-show/

So, passing the FST was not a requirement for this latest class , yet everyone but Wax passed the FST.

Seems the training, testing and requirements is written up and geared for achieving a predetermined end result for hiring (&#8220;The requirements have changed with every class,&#8221;). WOW

In real simple terms, standards for FDNY have been lowered to reach a certain quota depending on that year's desired end result.WOW just WOW.

I wouldn't want to work or live in NYC. Nor would I want to be working side by side with these new probies.

 

[jjenny]

So, passing the FST was not a requirement for this latest class , yet everyone but Wax passed the FST.

...

Actually, you can't make this claim. Her results were leaked. They were not supposed to have been. You don't know if anybody else failed but their results were not leaked.

 

[screecher]

Actually, you can't make this claim. Her results were leaked. They were not supposed to have been. You don't know if anybody else failed but their results were not leaked.

My point being....“The requirements have changed with every class,”

So, I'm going to infer 'the requirements have changed with every class' is due to the desired end result. In otherwords, because there has been bellyaching not enough women are hired in comparison to men, FDNY has been directed by the PTB, to do whatever needs to be done to get those women hired, even if it means lowering the standards.

And that's exactly what is being done. There's no getting around that.

 

[jjenny]

My point being....&#8220;The requirements have changed with every class,&#8221;

So, I'm going to infer 'the requirements have changed with every class' is due to the desired end result. In otherwords, because there has been bellyaching not enough women are hired in comparison to men, FDNY has been directed by the PTB, to do whatever needs to be done to get those women hired, even if it means lowering the standards.

And that's exactly what is being done. There's no getting around that.

I don't see anybody trying to get around that. If their goal is to get more women than 0.5% they currently have (which is lower than other departments), seems like they have to lower their standards. Other departments apparently don't demand this specific test.

 

[screecher]

I don't see anybody trying to get around that. If their goal is to get more women than 0.5% they currently have (which is lower than other departments), seems like they have to lower their standards. Other departments apparently don't demand this specific test.

Other departments don't work in the same environment. And there is no getting around that either.

I ask, is it more important to insure there is a certain ratio of 'minority', in this case women, to men?

The 'goal' is and should be---saving human lives and saving each other if need be. The 'goal' ought not be insuring a quota. And if a department has to lower it's standards so there is a forced ratio regarding women to men, the 'goal' to saving human lives is no more. The hiring should not be race and gender specific, it is common sense to hire the best qualified to do the job required. Hiring someone (or changing tests/requirements for each class) who failed a requirement is putting human lives at risk.

 

[SophieRose]

Fire departments actually answer more medical related calls than fire related calls. As one article stated "We've won the war on fire." In 2012 Manhattan had about 8% fire related calls, including structural, brush, and auto. The remaining were medical and other. EMS is a part of FDNY but that stat is for the fire section only.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

jenny, you're thinking in terms of of the "content" of the responses, i.e., which one is true or accurate.

But this isn't that kind of test. This test measures the "style" of the response, i.e., whether the testtaker can distinguish between specific and vague information.

There is no fire and no corner. The correct answer is the one described with the greatest specificity.

(The SAT and GRE are famous for their analogies. As I said above, when I was applying to grad school, I was thrown by the analogies because each question seemed to have several correct answers. But I quickly realized that they preferred some aspects of analogies (identical functions, say) while considering others (same size and shape ) "wrong". It's just the way tests work.)

The SAT & the GRE are two totally different types of tests -- but you would know that, right?
I know that.
After taking both exams, I never lump them into the same category due to the GRE grading method being very unique.

Moo

 

[screecher]

Fire departments actually answer more medical related calls than fire related calls. As one article stated "We've won the war on fire." In 2012 Manhattan had about 8% fire related calls, including structural, brush, and auto. The remaining were medical and other. EMS is a part of FDNY but that stat is for the fire section only.

Yep, I believe you're correct. Also, A huge percentage of of the medical runs are helping to lift and move a morbidly obese person, I'm talking about someone who is double, triple the weight they should be. Wonder how useful Rebecca Wax would be on one of those runs?

 

[Sillybilly]

Please do not to bash the person being discussed.

Thanks.