GUILTY OH - Ashley Zhao, 5, Jackson Township, 10 Jan 2017

[SaberTooth]

I don't believe anyone is making excuses for either parent, just trying to understand some of their demeanor. And any speculation is just that. None of us know these people and we do not know if they made efforts to adapt to American culture, how they may have been raised or what their beliefs actually are. They do not appear to have made a social circle of friends, so it is likely their Asian heritage still plays a role in their parenting skills and other aspects of their lives. JMO, of course.

I don't see any offensive comments being made, nor excuses for killing a child in any country, despite their culture or laws. It is normal to question, especially at a place such as WS, and to try to understand what could possibly be inherent that allows one to think cruelty or murder could be a chosen action.


The laws re green cards/citizenship is only for reference and understanding of how she may have failed to qualify.

I can personally say these comments being made about relating China's culture to one of abuse have offended actual Chinese people. As it is not a true or fair representation. The point is no one has related this to American culture, why not? If they clearly have similar opinions and legislation on child abuse. Comments which argue that China is an abusive culture, by then linking one sided, biased arguments is offensive. No one is linking the legislation where China strictly states "Corporal punishment is prohibited in schools. Article 16 of the Compulsory Education Law 1986states: “It shall be forbidden to inflict physical punishment on students.” According to article 37 ofthe Teachers’ Law 1994, teachers “imposing corporal punishment on students and refusing to mendtheir way after being criticised” are subject to administrative sanctions or dismissal" http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/assets/pdfs/states-reports/China.pdf

A practice still carried out in Schools in at least 19 states in the US. Or the legislation saying they are against child abuse:
"The Government reported to the Committee on the Rights of the Child in 2013 that China’s lawsexplicitly prohibit all corporal punishment of children, including in the home.1 However, provisionsagainst violence and abuse in the revised Law on the Protection of Minors 2006 (further revised in2012), the Criminal Law 1979, the Constitution 1982 and the Marriage Law (amended 2001) do notprohibit all corporal punishment in childrearing.. Article 10 of the Law on the Protection of Minorsprohibits “domestic violence against minors, abuse, abandonment and infanticide” but does notexplicitly prohibit all corporal punishment." Again similar corporal punishment permitted in the US but not one is discussing this, only Chinese culture. It is offensive because it is incorrect. Just MHO.

 

[rsd1200]

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/786990.shtml

"It is also worth noting that the U.S. is relatively unusual in terms of attitudes, prevalence, and legal sanctions. Hitting children is more culturally acceptable in American than in many other nations – not only by parents, but by teachers corporal punishment in schools is still permitted in 19 states). In many nations, physical punishment of children has now been outlawed, even for parents."
Corporal punishment is not just spanking but can include the use of a closed fist and a belt as stated in this article. IMO belt and broomstick can both cause significant damage to a child.

Here is a link which demonstrates amount of time that can be served in America (varies between states) on how much time an indivudals can serve for child abuse including in cases of death: https://www.cga.ct.gov/2000/rpt/2000-r-1064.htm

As you can see this shows individuals can serve as little as 5 years for willingly causing the death of a child. Does this mean by your argument, Americas culture is similar to China's? I respect your viewpoint, and understand there are issues in China regarding child welfare and legislation. But these are similar issues throughout the globe, to use a persons culture as a way of explaining their crime is insensitive to that culture. More specifically if you are stating a global issue as one just specific to China. Just MHO

I had one child that required a much more different approach. I used corporal punishment on that one and asked that the school do the same, they refused. You seem to think I'm lumping all Asians into the same basket. I am not. I don't think that all Asians beat the Holy H#ll out of their children. Are things like canings, and other types of corporal punishment, seen as okay, more-so in the Chinese culture? I think so. That last article, Asian Parenting vs. American Parenting, was written in Singapore... I don't even know any Chinese folks other than the ones running the restaurant in a nearby county. Talk about on point too. I won't have been in there for months and they remember my drink and my order, every time. Chinese parents see it that each of their children can succeed and it is their job to ensure their success, and that will bring them happiness in life. In America, we have been turning away from corporal punishment for years now. In China, that tide has only recently been turning. When my father was in school, he had a teacher that threw books, and scissors, at the class, if they weren't paying attention, or were causing a ruckus. When my spouse was in school, a teacher beat my spouse with a plastic bat, on the legs, until they were blood red b/c the teacher felt my spouse was not running fast enough. My mil went to speak w/the school too. This was in the early 60s. When I was in school, I had a teacher that threw a student across a couple of rows of desks, for standing up to the teacher and disrupting class, and another who would grab our ears, or peck us on the head, to get our attention ( A mother went to the school over the ear grabbing...). (I laugh about it, my spouse laughs about it, my father laughs about it.). Make an example of one, and there was little trouble the rest of the year. FFW to when my kids went into school, if teachers did much more than give them a scolding, they'd get fired or put on leave, b/c parents had gone to the school over their kid getting spanked (some of the kids nearly ran the school by that point). One of my siblings is a teacher now, and the teachers can't even comfort a child, because they are not permitted to touch them. He teaches K-5. They still cane children in China's public schools, and kids don't run the school there. I can only imagine the headlines if a teacher got out a cane, and caned a 8-10 kids who were making a ruckus, in a classroom. Teachers from here have noted the difference. There are many accounts of Chinese people who speak of the different parenting style of their parents and their American friend's parents. I only offer the articles. Corporal punishment is frowned upon here, now. I was called to the school b/c of a problem w/my child, back in the 90s. I asked if they'd tried a spanking. They said, well NO, we don't DO that anymore. I said, well, I do. Where is he? They said if I did it in front of them they'd have to call SS! So, I took him into an empty classroom, spanked him, and left. The fact is that there are people who abuse children, and their spouses, in all walks of life, all over the world, however, abuse has only recently been seen as a societal issue in China, so, rather than telling folks to suck it up, they can now file charges, if they're in a marriage (as opposed to living together). China has been around since 300 B.C. yet they are behind us on human rights issues.


Tough Love From My Asian Parents
http://freshgrads.sg/articles/personality/features/1851-tough-love-from-my-asian-parents

 

[jjenny]

Spanking the child (however controversial it is in US) isn't the same as hitting them with fist on the face/head, as what alleged have happened here.

 

[rsd1200]

If a father murdered his daughter, because she flirted with a boy...would we still be taking about culture? Do we get to choose who gets this privilege of culture explaining?

I don't care where they are from. They are here now. They have been here long enough to know what happens to child abusers. And they KNEW it was wrong and illegal, so they hid her body and lied. They are at the mercy of the justice system here, the place they chose to live. I hope they experience the fullest extent that our system can hand.

Guys, they knew. They knew it was wrong, they knew there would be consequences. They CHOSE to be abusers, their "culture" did not choose it for them. We know nothing about what their culture might be, but we know about their beaten and deceased daughter.

JMO.

.
I know that he knew. I'm not 100% on what she knew though, only b/c she needs a translator, and we are getting everything from the husband. When I first read this, it was said that she hit the child, in the head, several times w/her fist. I don't know, but, I don't think they meant to kill the child. That doesn't change the fact that she is dead, and they should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. I do feel though, that this case could be highlighted to teach others in the Asian community, that if they are using this type of corporal punishment, that it is not okay here in America. Spankings are one thing, abuse is entirely different.

Edit: If anyone is using this type of corporal punishment, it is wrong, culture or not. I know of people who grew up getting much tougher discipline than I did. They saw it as tough love. I was pretty tough on one of my kids. He laughs about it today. He didn't laugh so much at the time.

 

[SaberTooth]

I had one child that required a much more different approach. I used corporal punishment on that one and asked that the school do the same, they refused. You seem to think I'm lumping all Asians into the same basket. I am not. I don't think that all Asians beat the Holy H#ll out of their children. Are things like canings, and other types of corporal punishment, seen as okay, more-so in the Chinese culture? I think so. That last article, Asian Parenting vs. American Parenting, was written in Singapore... I don't even know any Chinese folks other than the ones running the restaurant in a nearby county. Talk about on point too. I won't have been in there for months and they remember my drink and my order, every time. Chinese parents see it that each of their children can succeed and it is their job to ensure their success, and that will bring them happiness in life. In America, we have been turning away from corporal punishment for years now. In China, that tide has only recently been turning. When my father was in school, he had a teacher that threw books, and scissors, at the class, if they weren't paying attention, or were causing a ruckus. When my spouse was in school, a teacher beat my spouse with a plastic bat, on the legs, until they were blood red b/c the teacher felt my spouse was not running fast enough. My mil went to speak w/the school too. This was in the early 60s. When I was in school, I had a teacher that threw a student across a couple of rows of desks, for standing up to the teacher and disrupting class, and another who would grab our ears, or peck us on the head, to get our attention ( A mother went to the school over the ear grabbing...). (I laugh about it, my spouse laughs about it, my father laughs about it.). Make an example of one, and there was little trouble the rest of the year. FFW to when my kids went into school, if teachers did much more than give them a scolding, they'd get fired or put on leave, b/c parents had gone to the school over their kid getting spanked (some of the kids nearly ran the school by that point). One of my siblings is a teacher now, and the teachers can't even comfort a child, because they are not permitted to touch them. He teaches K-5. They still cane children in China's public schools, and kids don't run the school there. I can only imagine the headlines if a teacher got out a cane, and caned a 8-10 kids who were making a ruckus, in a classroom. Teachers from here have noted the difference. There are many accounts of Chinese people who speak of the different parenting style of their parents and their American friend's parents. I only offer the articles. Corporal punishment is frowned upon here, now. I was called to the school b/c of a problem w/my child, back in the 90s. I asked if they'd tried a spanking. They said, well NO, we don't DO that anymore. I said, well, I do. Where is he? They said if I did it in front of them they'd have to call SS! So, I took him into an empty classroom, spanked him, and left. The fact is that there are people who abuse children, and their spouses, in all walks of life, all over the world, however, abuse has only recently been seen as a societal issue in China, so, rather than telling folks to suck it up, they can now file charges, if they're in a marriage (as opposed to living together). China has been around since 300 B.C. yet they are behind us on human rights issues.


Tough Love From My Asian Parents
http://freshgrads.sg/articles/personality/features/1851-tough-love-from-my-asian-parents

RE: Bolded by me

There is not sufficient evidence to state corporal punishment is bigger issue in China than America. The article was written by individuals located in Singapore - Asia is huge - there are a variety of religions and belief systems along with variations in the law. So it truly cannot be a fair portrayal of Chinese culture. I suggest meeting some Chinese people, speak to them, get to know and understand them. It will never truly represent China's culture, not unless you visit China but it will help break these prejudices. There is corporal punishment permitted in the US but not in China. That should go to show in that sense it is a bigger issue there than in China. The abuse described by some Chinese is illegal in China. Abuse happens in America, Americans speak up about it as well. Does that mean the American culture is abusive? Just because a school your child went to did not enforce corporal punishment does not mean no school in America enforces that rule. As by law it is permitted in the US. The culture of these individuals who committed this disgusting crime is not relevant. Just MHO.

 

[cvaldez1975]

Has anyone read the tiger mother? No one is saying it's a-ok to beat your kids if you happen to be Asian. It's wrong, and they will face justice. And not all Asians beat their kids. But Asian culture is different from American in regards to parenting. That is all a few are saying.


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[jjenny]

Has anyone read the tiger mother? No one is saying it's a-ok to beat your kids if you happen to be Asian. It's wrong, and they will face justice. And not all Asians beat their kids. But Asian culture is different from American in regards to parenting. That is all a few are saying.


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Tiger mother is someone who does everything possible that their child succeeds in life. I would say beating your child to death is the opposite of the tiger mother. So not sure why you would bring it up?

 

[rsd1200]

RE: Bolded by me

There is not sufficient evidence to state corporal punishment is bigger issue in China than America. The article was written by individuals located in Singapore - Asia is huge - there are a variety of religions and belief systems along with variations in the law. So it truly cannot be a fair portrayal of Chinese culture. I suggest meeting some Chinese people, speak to them, get to know and understand them. It will never truly represent China's culture, not unless you visit China but it will help break these prejudices. There is corporal punishment permitted in the US but not in China. That should go to show in that sense it is a bigger issue there than in China. The abuse described by some Chinese is illegal in China. Abuse happens in America, Americans speak up about it as well. Does that mean the American culture is abusive? Just because a school your child went to did not enforce corporal punishment does not mean no school in America enforces that rule. As by law it is permitted in the US. The culture of these individuals who committed this disgusting crime is not relevant. Just MHO.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not saying that abuse is not in America, and just as prevalent, it most certainly is. One only has to turn on the news, or read through Websleuths directories. It's depressing. I have no prejudice against Chinese people. I'm sorry you see it that way. I do feel that there are cultural differences in the two country's peoples, though. I provided more articles than one, and from what resources that I'd probably use in my research of any other case on here, or at work.

 

[jjenny]

.
I know that he knew. I'm not 100% on what she knew though, only b/c she needs a translator, and we are getting everything from the husband. When I first read this, it was said that she hit the child, in the head, several times w/her fist. I don't know, but, I don't think they meant to kill the child. That doesn't change the fact that she is dead, and they should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. I do feel though, that this case could be highlighted to teach others in the Asian community, that if they are using this type of corporal punishment, that it is not okay here in America. Spankings are one thing, abuse is entirely different.

Edit: If anyone is using this type of corporal punishment, it is wrong, culture or not. I know of people who grew up getting much tougher discipline than I did. They saw it as tough love. I was pretty tough on one of my kids. He laughs about it today. He didn't laugh so much at the time.

You haven't provided one link that says hitting child on the face/head with a fist is used by anybody as a form of corporal punishment. So not sure why Asian community should be educated on something they clearly do not use as a form of corporal punishment.

 

[cvaldez1975]

Tiger mother is someone who does everything possible that their child succeeds in life. I would say beating your child to death is the opposite of the tiger mother. So not sure why you would bring it up?

I brought it up because it outlines that there are different pressures and ways of handling things inter culture.


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[SaberTooth]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not saying that abuse is not in America, and just as prevalent, it most certainly is. One only has to turn on the news, or read through Websleuths directories. It's depressing.

I certainly agree with you on this statement. Irregardless of our views, what these individuals did to their own child is horrific and we can hope the US ensures these individuals pay for crimes they have committed. And there is justice for this little girl. Just MHO.

 

[rsd1200]

You haven't provided one link that says hitting child on the face/head with a fist is used by anybody as a form of corporal punishment. So not sure why Asian community should be educated on something they clearly do not use as a form of corporal punishment.

.
Alrighty then... You've posted nothing to prove that she did this either. I'm leaning toward him til there is unadulterated proof that she killed her child. Either way, both should be punished.

 

[rsd1200]

Has anyone read the tiger mother? No one is saying it's a-ok to beat your kids if you happen to be Asian. It's wrong, and they will face justice. And not all Asians beat their kids. But Asian culture is different from American in regards to parenting. That is all a few are saying.


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BBM
I've not read the book. I have read quite a lot about a difference in parenting between the two countries. That was the point I was trying to make. I'm personally fine w/corporal punishment (what happened to this little girl is not corporal punishment. It's murder.) The father is from here, and speaks English. The mother is not, and does not speak English well. I only think that b/c she needs a translator. I just do not trust what the father is saying happened just yet. If it all shakes out later, that he is being truthful, then okay. I'm just leery of accusing her when we've only heard from the father.

 

[jjenny]

.
Alrighty then... You've posted nothing to prove that she did this either. I'm leaning toward him til there is unadulterated proof that she killed her child. Either way, both should be punished.

You must have missed the fact that she is the one charged with murder. So as of now, it is alleged she did it, not him. So I don't know what proof you expect me to post.

 

[jjenny]

BBM
I've not read the book. I have read quite a lot about a difference in parenting between the two countries. That was the point I was trying to make. I'm personally fine w/corporal punishment (what happened to this little girl is not corporal punishment. It's murder.) The father is from here, and speaks English. The mother is not, and does not speak English well. I only think that b/c she needs a translator. I just do not trust what the father is saying happened just yet. If it all shakes out later, that he is being truthful, then okay. I'm just leery of accusing her when we've only heard from the father.

Not sure why she wouldn't be speaking English, she has been here for many years (at least 7, since she applied for asylum in 2009).

 

[rsd1200]

Not sure why she wouldn't be speaking English, she has been here for many years (at least 7, since she applied for asylum in 2009).

Then why the need of a translator for her? I've not heard that she's admitted to murdering the child as of yet. The husband has said she did it.

 

[tobryanwilson]

Then why the need of a translator for her? I've not heard that she's admitted to murdering the child as of yet. The husband has said she did it.

They've both been charged with murder - I live near them so sad



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[rsd1200]

They've both been charged with murder - I live near them so sad



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I read that he'd only been charged w/complicity. Glad he's been charged w/murder as well. I just thought that he may have done this and was putting it off on her since she may not have been able to defend herself as well due to a possible language barrier.

 

[jjenny]

No. Mother is charged with murder. Father is charged with complicity to murder.

http://www.cantonrep.com/news/20170112/ashley-zhaos-sister-to-remain-in-county-custody

 

[SaberTooth]

Then why the need of a translator for her? I've not heard that she's admitted to murdering the child as of yet. The husband has said she did it.

i understood her need for a translator was for her communication with the lawyer not police. I'm sure if she didn't understand what the police were saying in the interview they would have contacted a translator. Although not too familiar on the interview policies in US on translators. But I do understand there may be things she is keeping from the police and would only feel comfortable disclosing to a lawyer if she was abused. Hopefully if she was abused and the father did kill the child, she will be given the opportunity tell the truth. It would support some indivudals theory the reason she was sick so often was due to the fathers abuse. Truly horrible. Just MHO.