OH OH/PA - Kingsbury Run Murders, Cleveland OH/New Castle PA, 1930's

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Can we revive discussion?
I have huge interest in this case, since my last case (EARONS) was solved.

Someone here asked years ago "Why the attempted preservation of the bodies?"
I think it points to something Ted Bundy hinted at as to why some killers return to dump sites.
First, hunters keep trophies.
You don't want your trophies to rot and become unusable.
An examiner at the time mentioned he thought the Lady of the Lake was treated and stored for some period of time.
The second victim (killed before Andrassy and dumped with Andrassy) was also an attempt at treatment for storage.
I've also compared and noted the same dump sites were used rotationally and revisited.
Why the treatment and storage?
Keeping the bodies for some PURPOSE.
Viewed and enjoyed again and again, and....possibly necrophillia.
Same with rotational, revisited dump sites.
Keep revisiting, viewing, and using the trophies as long as possible.
(Bundy had Taylor Mountain, remember?)
Emasculation....similar purpose.
Body becomes a genderless play toy.
Not a man, not necessarily a woman...but CLOSE ENOUGH.
The removed and discarded heads....the body loses identity. Again, a genderless anonymous plaything.
In lieu of a female victim the killer may have picked effeminate males, or bisexual or homosexual males.....not a woman, but CLOSE ENOUGH.
There is also a specific build the killer is picking.
Around 5' 10" give or take and not over 160 lbs.
Slender, effeminate men.
The located heads of the young men (Andrassy, Tattooed man) show young, slim, effeminate faces. The two faces are similar.
The face of John Doe 2 may be bloated by decomp....its hard to tell for sure.
Maybe his PERSONALITY fit the killers type, if his looks didn't.
Andrassy was hinted at bisexuality and prostitution....so was the identified Youngstown boxcar man.
Both were alcoholics and working poor or drifters.
The type of men who wouldn't be against trading sexual favors for a drink, spare change, or a meal.
I think that's how all of the victims were lured...the promise of alcohol (and morphine in the case of one later female victim).
After Andrassy the killer decided he didn't really NEED to emasculate the men.
He had an average of 2 days to choose, lure, kill, use, and dump each victim.
Time tables show after his preservation experiments didn't work (Lady of the Lake and John Doe 2) he only kept a body on hand around 2 days.
This is probably the point at which the smell also became hard to explain.
He also chose dark nights (crescent moon with low visibility) for most of his dump nights.
He also preferred mostly overcast days/nights (data from meteorological records).

I have more thoughts if discussion resumes.
 
Can we revive discussion?
I have huge interest in this case, since my last case (EARONS) was solved.

Someone here asked years ago "Why the attempted preservation of the bodies?"
I think it points to something Ted Bundy hinted at as to why some killers return to dump sites.
First, hunters keep trophies.
You don't want your trophies to rot and become unusable.
An examiner at the time mentioned he thought the Lady of the Lake was treated and stored for some period of time.
The second victim (killed before Andrassy and dumped with Andrassy) was also an attempt at treatment for storage.
I've also compared and noted the same dump sites were used rotationally and revisited.
Why the treatment and storage?
Keeping the bodies for some PURPOSE.
Viewed and enjoyed again and again, and....possibly necrophillia.
Same with rotational, revisited dump sites.
Keep revisiting, viewing, and using the trophies as long as possible.
(Bundy had Taylor Mountain, remember?)
Emasculation....similar purpose.
Body becomes a genderless play toy.
Not a man, not necessarily a woman...but CLOSE ENOUGH.
The removed and discarded heads....the body loses identity. Again, a genderless anonymous plaything.
In lieu of a female victim the killer may have picked effeminate males, or bisexual or homosexual males.....not a woman, but CLOSE ENOUGH.
There is also a specific build the killer is picking.
Around 5' 10" give or take and not over 160 lbs.
Slender, effeminate men.
The located heads of the young men (Andrassy, Tattooed man) show young, slim, effeminate faces. The two faces are similar.
The face of John Doe 2 may be bloated by decomp....its hard to tell for sure.
Maybe his PERSONALITY fit the killers type, if his looks didn't.
Andrassy was hinted at bisexuality and prostitution....so was the identified Youngstown boxcar man.
Both were alcoholics and working poor or drifters.
The type of men who wouldn't be against trading sexual favors for a drink, spare change, or a meal.
I think that's how all of the victims were lured...the promise of alcohol (and morphine in the case of one later female victim).
After Andrassy the killer decided he didn't really NEED to emasculate the men.
He had an average of 2 days to choose, lure, kill, use, and dump each victim.
Time tables show after his preservation experiments didn't work (Lady of the Lake and John Doe 2) he only kept a body on hand around 2 days.
This is probably the point at which the smell also became hard to explain.
He also chose dark nights (crescent moon with low visibility) for most of his dump nights.
He also preferred mostly overcast days/nights (data from meteorological records).

I have more thoughts if discussion resumes.
Lady of the Lake was killed 6 months ago and dumped around 3 months ago.
 
Blonde hairs have been found with some of the later victims, but seems like they were lost. So it's impossible to check the DNA.
 
The Cleveland Torso Murder cases were treated by investigators back in the 1930's to early 1940's as a series committed by a single unknown subject. There were 12 murders included officially in the series, of which only three were identified - two positively and one only tentatively.

The "Lady of the Lake" was an unidentified torso of a woman which was found after separate reports of body parts: hand, head, legs - were reportedly seen in Lake Erie. Although she is generally considered to be the first of the Torso murders, she was never officially listed as one of the 12 cases.

"Victim Number Six" was a decapitated young male with tattoos who has never been identified. He has his own thread here on Websleuths, and there is much discussion of that particular case as well as the series known as either the Cleveland Torso Murders or the Butcher of Kingsbury Run killings.

There were a number of arrests and potential suspects named over the years but none were ever charged and prosecuted and the cases, although officially unsolved, were closed in 1943.

LINK:

 
I'm doubtful it will help with solving the case, since IMO these were stranger murders. Still, it will be good for the families. They'll finally know what happened to their relatives.
 
I'm doubtful it will help with solving the case, since IMO these were stranger murders. Still, it will be good for the families. They'll finally know what happened to their relatives.
some blond hairs were found with a few victims, but I asked my friend who had been into this case for years. He said those were lost.
 
Hi, I'm reading In the Wake of the Butcher right now. I've seen brief mention of the outdated newspapers being found with some of the bodies and I think a phonebook page with one as well and I was wondering if they had been looked into to see if anything of significance was mentioned in them?
 
Hi, I'm reading In the Wake of the Butcher right now. I've seen brief mention of the outdated newspapers being found with some of the bodies and I think a phonebook page with one as well and I was wondering if they had been looked into to see if anything of significance was mentioned in them?
not much, the blonde hairs were the biggest catch.

I think Ness lost his mind, he should have waited till the killer commit more crime, he might catch him.
 
I am personally of the opinion that it is Dr. Sweeney, and that he may've had an accomplice or two. Maybe someone who was an "accomplice" only in that they merely turned a blind eye to or pretended not to be aware of Dr. Sweeney's activities, not that they were directly involved in the killing, dismemberment, etc.

I also think it is possible that one or two of the victims attributed to the Cleveland Torso Murderer may not be his "work."

Obviously the ones with chemicals present were most likely the "work" of the same person (or people).

MOO.
 
I also think it is possible that one or two of the victims attributed to the Cleveland Torso Murderer may not be his "work."
I agree with you on that possibility and also think about 4 questionables maybe should be on the tally.

I'm not so sure on Sweeney. He was somewhat famous relating to his family and was a very large man. This makes me suspect that he'd stand out in a community of little malnourished hobos.
 
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Those 4 would be the boxcar guys. The guy who was found in New Castle PA on July 1 of 1936 and the 3 who were found in McKees Rocks PA on May 3 of 1940. The latters were likely killed in Youngstown OH sometime during December of 1939.
 
I am personally of the opinion that it is Dr. Sweeney, and that he may've had an accomplice or two. Maybe someone who was an "accomplice" only in that they merely turned a blind eye to or pretended not to be aware of Dr. Sweeney's activities, not that they were directly involved in the killing, dismemberment, etc.

I also think it is possible that one or two of the victims attributed to the Cleveland Torso Murderer may not be his "work."

Obviously the ones with chemicals present were most likely the "work" of the same person (or people).

MOO.
The Rose Wallace one might not be his work.
 
The Rose Wallace one might not be his work.
I'm partial to thinking it was since she was found with a newspaper clipping.

In In The Wake of the Butcher, Sweeney is portrayed as very eccentric to put it one way. I feel like he would have been noticed like @STANDREID said.
 

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