OK - Donald 'Joe' Neff, 61, Poteau, 14 May 2009 - #1

[Debbie Miller]

oh i forgot, dad went missing thursday 14th, on friday we had looked all day and met back at house to update each other where we had searhed. we were all talking and decided that we should check this one room that he always kept locked. the le did check the house on thurs but since that room was never unlocked and the house was in perfect order we assumed that the only crime was at the bar. at this time we still did not know he was dead, we thought maybe he was just hurt somewhere. so fri we busted in door to find safe open. so we called le back out there again

So basically, the only forced entry was when you (family) busted the door in?

That means someone got in with a key. Did they dust his house for foreign prints?

 

[missingmydad]

yes they dusted everything for prints as far as i know, keep in mind that i was in shock and on medication almost immediately after my dads abduction, the first 2 or 3 weeks i was out of it. so lots of things i just do not remember unless i ask or find in paper or whatever. i will call osbi and ask about how common it is for the us marshal to step in. i just wanted to leave them alone and let them work in hopes they will get some bad guys arrested soon.

 

[missingmydad]

yeah we are the ones that busted in the door.

 

[Angels_Not_Forgotten]

so someone close enough stole the money that knew that you would also need a key to get into the door, if it were not busted open. Was your dad's key's found? is that one missing? Had he had the locks changed recently, either at his home or place of business?

 

[Debbie Miller]

yes they dusted everything for prints as far as i know, keep in mind that i was in shock and on medication almost immediately after my dads abduction, the first 2 or 3 weeks i was out of it. so lots of things i just do not remember unless i ask or find in paper or whatever. i will call osbi and ask about how common it is for the us marshal to step in. i just wanted to leave them alone and let them work in hopes they will get some bad guys arrested soon.

I understand you not wanting to bother them, but at the same time you want them to know you aren't just going to let this go.

I don't mean to sound like the police are not doing anything, just keep in touch with them once a week.

I would ask them about the dusting for fingerprints, did they find anything questionable? From my knowledge , they should have taken prints from anyone who was associated with your dad's house to do the process of elimination.

Like I mentioned above with the physical evidence, if they found no foreign fingerprints in his house they don't have a lead in that manner.

 

[gliving]

so someone close enough stole the money that knew that you would also need a key to get into the door, if it were not busted open. Was your dad's key's found? is that one missing? Had he had the locks changed recently, either at his home or place of business?

This seems to narrow it down to someone who had both the key to the locked door and the safe. Then again we don't know if the burglary and murder are connected, though you would think they are.

I wonder if they went to the house safe first, didn't find what they were looking for and then went to Joe's bar to confront him.

And why would they leave the safe open? Seems like they would close it back up, especially since they re-lock the room upon leaving/ Or was someone trying to make it look like a robbery?

 

[Wudge]

hi everyone, thank you for all the kind words. i will answer questions now
we do not have an exact time of death
we do not know what caliber bullet, only the le
i have heard only one shot to the head, exact entry i do not know
very heavy rains, no tracks that i am aware of
the strip pit looks like a pond so you can drive up pretty close
i do not know about any defensive wounds we are unable to get that info yet
his straw cowbay hat was found in the floor at the bar
i do not have any idea how much money, only what i have read in the papers
his black tahoe was still outside the bar, i drove it home and still have it here
i think they fingerprinted everything, bar house safe everything
le has not been very forthcoming with info but since i am posting it on the web i guess i know why but i just want answers, i need answers so badly
le has not told us how many they think were involved we just assume it has to be more than one because my dad was tough and not small
we are unsure if the unsolved murders around the area are connected
all we know is an older model red import truck
the girl friend is maybe 100 pounds probably less, around 46 yrs old
his bar is about 3 minutes from his house
he owned horses, he did not really buy and sell, he loved to ride them and he used to break horses when he was younger, he always had horses
i talked to my dad almost every day and saw him several times a week
he took care of the bar, he worked on whatever needed to be fixed, he remodeled it, my dad could fix , or build anything. he loved to ride horses and he always rode around in the mountains on sundays in his jeep after he fed the bar people.
my dad was a cowbay he did not own a computer, he would think that was funny
his safe was a big stand up safe like from atwoods or something.
there are lots of regulars at the bar and no bouncers that i know of
dad and his girlfriend did not live together, she did "stay over" quite a bit

ok we do not think he came home after he paid his bill and went to part store i think he went straight out to bar so he may have been there by 10:30 or so, the bar opens at noon, 1st customer shows up 11:45 and cant find dad and bar unlocked blood on floor, a few minutes later girlfriend, who works there, shows up for her shift and finds the scene they call 911 and then we had gotten phone call we show up and police tape everywhere. we looked for him for 3 days on horses, 4 wheelers and my husband rented a plane, then the people found him. dad worked with his brother all his life nearly, he kind of semi retired to just work bar.

Thank you for the information.

The fact that LE did not open the door to the room in the house that contained the sign is a bad sign. It goes to a lack of competence. If LE took something that basic for granted, they might well have taken other things for granted that they should not have done. It's good that the OSBI is actively involved in this case.

Additional questions


When LE first went to your Father's home on the 14th, how did they gain access? Was a door unlocked or did they use a key or another measure to gain entry?

Where was the key found that went to the door in the house (room that contained the safe) that the family had to break down?

Where was the key to your Father's vehicle (Tahoe) found?

Where was the key to your Father's home found?

I'm a bit confused regarding the lock or locks on the safe, Was both combination and a key needed to open the safe? And if so, where was the key to the safe found?

How were investigators able to determine how much money was missing from the safe?

What keys were found on your Father's person when his body was recovered?

Did your Father use a wallet or did he simply carry money in a pocket on his person -- my Father never used a wallet, because he felt they were too easy to pickpocket.

Does the Sheriff still believe the murder was personal and not a robbery?

If your Father was killed in the bar with one shot to the head, it does not compute that the person or persons who fired the shot would feel a need to move his dead body from the bar. That makes little sense. Your Father's hat was found on the floor along with substantial blood, which would obviously indicate trouble in the bar. Plus, the person or persons who shot your Father would also end up with blood on their clothes and in their vehicle (possible red pickup truck), and they would need to drive a good distance with his body in the car just to be able to dispose of it in a location that only locals would know about. In bar robberies gone astray, the last thing criminals think about is a need to dispose of a body.

Has LE considered that the robbers might have roughed up your Father in the bar (leaving blood and his hat on the floor), taken him to his home to open the safe, then drove to the strip mine and killed him there.

Did LE recover any bullet casings from any location?

Has anyone in the family talked with the persons or persons who reported seeing the red pickup truck. If so, exactly what time did they see it and how do they know it was a foreign pickup up truck? It would seem to me that if they know it was foreign, they would know the exact make.

Was it raining on the 14th? If so, when did it start to rain?

Prepare a timeline of events

The family should work on putting together a timeline of events. It's an excellent way to organize case facts and, at a minimum, it often helps to provide insight into what the circumstances might well have been.


God bless your Father, you and your family.

 

[Roselvr]

yes they dusted everything for prints as far as i know, keep in mind that i was in shock and on medication almost immediately after my dads abduction, the first 2 or 3 weeks i was out of it. so lots of things i just do not remember unless i ask or find in paper or whatever. i will call osbi and ask about how common it is for the us marshal to step in. i just wanted to leave them alone and let them work in hopes they will get some bad guys arrested soon.

What about your sister? Does she know anything?

I hate to ask.. and I apologize; did he have an open or closed casket?
I would think that your family should be able to get a copy of the report.

As for the safe, if the house didn't appear broken into; is it possible your dad was meeting someone to give money to?

 

[gliving]

Were they trying to make it look like a suicide at the bar, but something went wrong? Did Joe keep a gun at the bar? Was it found?

 

[missingmydad]

ok on the 14 th when 911 was called to the scene. my sis and i went out there and we called our husbands. then my husband and a police office and i think a couple of more went to the home and we had a key to get into the home. we let le in to look around. when it came to locked door, they didn't question it because it was never unlocked. we do not have a key to that room. dads keys were never recovered that i am aware of. the keys to his tahoe were still in the ignition. he did carry a wallet and it was still on his person when he was found. he did always carry money in his shirt pocket too and it was not strange to carry that much. he may have needed to get change for bar or was gonna loan it or whatever. i thought of him maybe getting into fight at bar, which explains the blood and killed later. he waould have never left his cowboy hat at the bar. he wore it when he went anywhere. my sister found out same time i did. the casket was closed, they would not even allow us to see my dad at all. he had been in the water for several days and they just said they would not let me. we do not have report yet. should be anytime. i wondered if dad had gotten into it but if he had he would have closed it back up. it rained and rained the whole week. it was muddy while we looked.

 

[Kimster]

{{{missingmydad}}}

Doesn't it seem strange that someone would relock the door that led to the safe, yet the safe was open? Does the door lock on its own somehow?

 

[gliving]

(((missingmydad)))

You are so patient with all our questions.

What's the talk around town? Do you have anyone in mind? No need to name them, just wondering if you have your own suspicions?

 

[Wudge]

ok on the 14 th when 911 was called to the scene. my sis and i went out there and we called our husbands. then my husband and a police office and i think a couple of more went to the home and we had a key to get into the home. we let le in to look around. when it came to locked door, they didn't question it because it was never unlocked. we do not have a key to that room. dads keys were never recovered that i am aware of. the keys to his tahoe were still in the ignition. he did carry a wallet and it was still on his person when he was found. he did always carry money in his shirt pocket too and it was not strange to carry that much. he may have needed to get change for bar or was gonna loan it or whatever. i thought of him maybe getting into fight at bar, which explains the blood and killed later. he waould have never left his cowboy hat at the bar. he wore it when he went anywhere. my sister found out same time i did. the casket was closed, they would not even allow us to see my dad at all. he had been in the water for several days and they just said they would not let me. we do not have report yet. should be anytime. i wondered if dad had gotten into it but if he had he would have closed it back up. it rained and rained the whole week. it was muddy while we looked.

Thank you for the information.

More questions

I remain curious as to what the Sherriff still thinks the motive was (and also what OSBI thinks); that is, does the Sherriff still think your Father's murder was personal or related to a robbery? The reason this is important is that what the investigators 'think' will greatly influence who they look at.

Is LE certain that thousands of dollars were taken from the safe? If so, how did they determine this to be true?

Was it your Father's habit to leave the keys to his black Tahoe in his truck? The reason I'm asking is because one possibility is that he drove up to the bar and one or more persons moved up to the door and pulled a gun on him right there. Then they took him inside the bar only to learn that there was no safe in the bar, only at his home. So they head off to his home, but before leaving the bar a scuffle broke out that knocked your Father's hat to the ground and he was injured and bleeding. They go to his home, which he unlocks, go to the room with the safe, which he unlocks, and he opens the safe, removes money and gives it to them. Next, they lock-up and return to the robber's vehicle, and your Father is driven to the strip mine where they murder him.

Did LE find evidence (shell casing, brain matter) that strongly indicates the bar was where your Father was shot?

Was it raining at the time that your Father would have driven his black Tahoe up to the bar? Rain gives cover, fewer people would notice anything out of the ordinary if rain was coming down.

Do the persons or persons who noticed the imported red pickup truck also drive a pickup truck (more likely to know what they are talking about)? Exactly what time did they see it, and where do they say they saw it in relation to where your Father's Tahoe was found (such as perhaps right next to it)?

Some advice

Squeaky wheels get the grease, no squeak, no grease. Find out who is in charge of your Father's investigation (person's name), then find out who their boss is (person's name). Have someone in the family talk with their boss. Then have someone in the family meet personally with one or more reporters and give them as much as is known about the case and the state of the investigation, also make sure to give them the boss' name. You want that name in print, because they are the person who will pressure others. The more focus (name in print) on the boss, the greater the pressure.

The family may also want to hire a lawyer to request information. This may not be necessary, but I just get the sense that the family is being kept from basic information.

Unfortunately, a good amount of time has passed since your Father was murdered. Time deadens cases and removes pressure, neither are to your advantage. Someone in your family should be creating as much pressure on LE as possible.

God bless your Father, you and your family.

 

[YellowDog]

I don't believe your Father was killed at the bar. First off, they would have needed the keys to his house, the key to the safe and the combination to the safe. Your Father probably carried these keys in his pocket (especially the one to the safe). I think he was taken back to the house, held captive while they got access to and looted the safe, then driven to the strip pit, forced out of the vehicle, taken close to the strip pit, made to lie down, then shot in the back of the head and pushed into the water. A bloody fight probably took place at the bar before they subdued your Father.

This could easily have been a set-up by the girlfriend and some people she knew and the reason she went to the bar was to establish her alibi by doing what she normally did on a day to day basis and throw suspicion away from her.

 

[Wudge]

I don't believe your Father was killed at the bar. First off, they would have needed the keys to his house, the key to the safe and the combination to the safe. Your Father probably carried these keys in his pocket (especially the one to the safe). I think he was taken back to the house, held captive while they got access to and looted the safe, then driven to the strip pit, forced out of the vehicle, taken close to the strip pit, made to lie down, then shot in the back of the head and pushed into the water. A bloody fight probably took place at the bar before they subdued your Father.

This could easily have been a set-up by the girlfriend and some people she knew and the reason she went to the bar was to establish her alibi by doing what she normally did on a day to day basis and throw suspicion away from her.

It cannot be totally established that his girlfriend was not somehow involved, however, she also worked at the bar. She would have known that the bar did not have a safe, only the home. As such, it would not seem to make sense for her to have someone initiate a confrontation with Mr. Nash at the bar. That is, if the safe in the house did, indeed, have money removed from it.

 

[missingmydad]

We are unaware of what the le or osbi thinks. they have not made that clear to us.
yes, it would be normal for him to leave the car keys in the ignition.
had he been in the house after the scuffle we would have found blood in the house.
we were not told what they found anywhere, that info is confidential even to us.
it had rained a lot in days before and after his murder, but sun shining the day of.
we are unaware who seen the red import truck. do not know what vehicle they have.
i request news interviews every month, i have been on the air each time just requesting that people please talk if they know anything and to be careful, since a killer is still walking free. i also went on after the task force was announced.
exactly what info are they obligated to tell me? each time i am told they cannot really get into a certain subject. do they have to tell me everything?
i don't know if they tried to make it look like suicide or what.
i honestly have no idea. i do not really trust anyone now. i don't have a suspect either though. i just think whoever it is, they are sure bold to do this in broad daylight. i have heard a million rumors around town. mafia, drugs, affairs, money, jealousy, all kinds of things but none makes any sense. it still does not seem real at all.
today he has been gone 6 months, rest in peace daddy, i love you.

 

[Vegas Bride]

Have you thought about hiring a private investigator?

VB

 

[colette]

The murderer has to be someone known. Why hide/take the body and lock the room to the safe after the money was gone?
...To buy time and keep the crime hidden.

 

[Soulmagent]

ok on the 14 th when 911 was called to the scene. my sis and i went out there and we called our husbands. then my husband and a police office and i think a couple of more went to the home and we had a key to get into the home. we let le in to look around. when it came to locked door, they didn't question it because it was never unlocked. we do not have a key to that room. dads keys were never recovered that i am aware of. the keys to his tahoe were still in the ignition. he did carry a wallet and it was still on his person when he was found. he did always carry money in his shirt pocket too and it was not strange to carry that much. he may have needed to get change for bar or was gonna loan it or whatever. i thought of him maybe getting into fight at bar, which explains the blood and killed later. he waould have never left his cowboy hat at the bar. he wore it when he went anywhere. my sister found out same time i did. the casket was closed, they would not even allow us to see my dad at all. he had been in the water for several days and they just said they would not let me. we do not have report yet. should be anytime. i wondered if dad had gotten into it but if he had he would have closed it back up. it rained and rained the whole week. it was muddy while we looked.

I find it completely crazy that the locked door was not opened by the police. Really that fact right there is a hard one to swallow.
They find blood everwhere enough to decide to crime tape it off and now they are looking for an injured person who may have went home and may have been in that locked room needing help? really wth? I know surely after the jonbonet incident there are memo's about that kinda crap arent there?
Why kill a man if you know where he lives and where his safe is and his schedule? There was something they needed from him if it was money why leave 750 in his pocket? If it was the money in the safe why not get it while he was at work?
B&E is alot better then murder. Easier and less stressful.Is anybody calling family members asking how the police are coming alone. Checking in more often or not like they used to.
I know you are getting bombarded with questions but hopefuly they will be helpful at some point even though it may seem redundant at first. I too have few that you may not be able to answer now or ever some might lead to stuff to look out for.

Was his body hidden in something (sheet bag etc. )
where there any clothes missing from his house ? Shoes or boots?
Are there any places that would have caught that truck on tape in the directions it was know to travel that day at anytime.
Have you been to local junkyards to check for said truck? Might be a long shot as there could be many red trucks.
I also would think someone who obtained alot of cash would be spending it in places like wal mart and they might have needed new shoes that day and a different car soon afterward criminals now know alot about evidence hanging arround which is why they took the body and that truck may have only been used for that and ditched.Maybe it was planned And checking pockets of the man whos safe they wanted didnt fit the plan. And the Bar crime scene doesnt make sence if the person knew him,very risky smaller time frame and more witnesses. Why? Dont stop asking.

 

[Debbie Miller]

Ok, after further thought on this and reading only partially thru the posts on this thread, I have to say.

When Mr. Neff was found - the only wound to him that is mentioned is "a gunshot wound to head" I take that as one shot. Wondering if where in the head this was. Is it possible that his hat fell off his head and the lighter out of his pocket when he fell from being shot? Or was he in the midst of lighting a cigarette when he was shot and his hand went up and tipped the hat off his head? Lighter falls out of his hand? Also if he was shot in the back of the head this would explain why no defense wounds.

So I see no overkill here as in rage for revenge. Was this a murder for hire?

Nothing much is mentioned about the condition of the inside of the bar, were tables turned over or chairs? Something to show a scuffle? Just a mention of a violent crime scene - meaning the blood. Why was it stated that Mr. Neff was just injured and not that he was dead with the amount of blood in the bar?

Mr. Neff had $750.00 on him when found in the strip pit, so I am not so sure that money is the actual motive. Does anyone know for sure how much money was in the safe? Maybe what he had on him was what he had in the safe.

One article mentions the safe was broke into and the heading of the same article mentions "ransacked safe"

Now going with what missingmydad says, the door to the room where the safe was was locked with no sign of forced entry. The safe showed no signs of being broken into just sitting open - well more than likely Mr. Neff would not have left it open even with the door locked, so I think the safe door being left open is a stage and not even a motive. Also, with the house being in perfect order, this tells me that someone wasn't in a hurry while in there if in there at all. Who would have had access to where the keys were either when on Joe or while not on him when he was sleeping? The gf. Or this could have been staged at the house after the fact, but not so likely if he was declared as missing , the house would be the first place to search as it was.

Now this happening in the daylight hours is no big deal to these people. They were parked in the back of the bar and made their exit this way, going from the pics of the bar.