OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[Pensfan]

I've only taken a recent interest in this case, so my apologies if I'm mis-spoken in my post. I intend to read much more on the case over the next few weeks. That said, here goes..... In my opinion the perpetrator(s) of this unspeakable crime fit one of only a few general profiles. Let's face it, there's a pretty small subset of individuals in our society who commit such violent acts against young children. I believe the perp has committed sexual crimes against children in the past and has pedophiliac tendencies known or unknown to authorities. Given the planning, execution and physically violent nature of the Camp Scott attacks, it is unlikely this was a "first time" for the perp. Maybe it was the first time it involved murder. Perhaps the perp was arrested and convicted in the past, and decided this time he would leave no witnesses to provide identification and possibly testify. Of course, it's also possible that it's not his first child murder, and murdering his victim(s) is what always allowed him to remain free. I don't believe Hart was responsible. I think investigators should have and should still be looking for those with histories, charges and/or convictions involving the sexual assault of children. Given the time that has elapsed, I would definitely be looking for individuals from the general area who have served time time over the years and are possibly still serving time for similar crimes.

Anyone who would commit this type of crime would not only commit it once, and could not possibly fly under the radar for 30+ years. The culprit, whether still alive or dead is hiding in plain sight. Investigators need to change their focus.

I was in my 20s when this occurred and heard stories about the caretaker's son who was a young adult male. He was supposedly a pedophile who had raped several of his younger siblings and cousins. Does anyone know if the book Cry for the Children talked about this man's interrogation? What was stated about him? Why was he not considered a person of interest?

 

[wfgodot]

Director names alleged Girl Scouts killer in movie
12/15/2011 7:28:02 AM (cherokeephoenix.org)

LOCUST GROVE, Okla. – The writer and director of the upcoming movie “Candles” said that convicted murderer Karl Lee Myers is the killer of the three Girl Scouts who were raped and murdered at Camp Scott in 1977.

John Russell said that Myers confessed to him about the murders of Lori Lee Farmer, 8; Michelle Guse, 9; and Denise Milner, 10, who were found dead June 13, 1977, at the camp near Locust Grove, Okla.
---
Russell said Myers confessed to him about the murders while each served time in the Ottawa County Jail in 1979.
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He said he also plans to name local and state officials from that time period who he believes were complicit in covering Myers’ involvement with the murders.

Myers is currently serving a first-degree murder conviction on death row in the Oklahoma State Penitentiary in McAlester.
---

more at link above

 

[SeekingJana]

I've followed this case for many years, also.
I think Hart was the perp, and that if DNA testing had only been more advanced, it could have been solved and he would have been convicted instead of acquitted " because ANOTHER person might have been an accomplice" RME!!!

For those who may have forgotten what I consider to be an important piece of the puzzle, Hart was BORN 1 mile from Camp Scott.
IMO, he was on the run, still a predator, of course, and planned this crime carefully as a sexual thrill kill and also as a way to get the kids off HIS land. I really believe he considered the camp to be a desecration of land that was important to him as a Cherokee.

BTW, don't know if it's posted here, but there is a newer book out. Published this past summer and has NOTHING to do with the " Candles" movie scammer.
It is called " Tent 8", and is said to be a very good book. I will be buying it next week. The older book on the case " Someone Cry For The Children" is almost impossible to find.. One on Amazon for around $60.

 

[smm31822]

Thank you.I found this very interesting in the time line.


July 29 1977

A private security team looking after camp scott see's what they think is a person in the woods.After coming back from investigating they find a pair of Denise Milners shoes and socks,wet,in a bag on the steps of the camp directors house.



http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/TIMELINE3.html

Michele Guse, 9, and Lori Lee Farmer, 8, had been beaten to death. Doris Milner, 10, had been beaten and strangled. All three had been raped. Michele's and Lori's bodies lay in zipped sleeping bags. Doris Milner was laying nude from the waist on the ground.

I have read that she might have been led from the tent as opposed to the others who were likely struck with a heavy object and carried out.

I find this very strange.They first get note(s) saying 4 girls were going to be killed?and they did not shut the place down.Then little Denise Milners things were found at the camp directors house steps in a bag.Curious What do you think of that?Was his house right there at the camp site or some where else?I'm also curious why only little Denise Milners shoes and socks and not the other little girls?

I am new here so sorry if this has already been addressed. So Denise Milner was the victim "treated differently" than the other two and it was her things that were found at the camp directors house? Does anyone else find this strange?

 

[SeekingJana]

Sometime after the 3 girls were killed, white tennis shoes with the name " Denise Milner" written on the tops of the shoes and a pair of pink socks were found in a plastic bag on the steps of one of the camp buildings. Obviously, they were meant to be found and associated with this victim.
Denise's mother believed at the time that items of this type ( white tennis shoes and pink socks) were among a list of missing items she had been asked to compile from the clothing returned to her.
The shoes and socks found in the bag were soaking wet. It has not been said if they were washed, rained on, or soaked with another type of liquid.
It has also not been established that the items belonged to Denise Milner, only that her mother believed that similar items were missing from her belongings when they were returned to the family.

Denise Milner was the largest and oldest of the 3 victims. ( Have you seen photos? Much more mature appearing compared to the other two girls, although still so young).
I think it is quite possible that her probably more mature body may have been more attractive to a sexual sadistic killer. She was still a child, but definitely more mature looking in the face than the other two girls.

While the 2 younger girls were found bound in the fetal position inside their sleeping bags, Denise's body was left out in the open beside the two bundled bodies, unclothed from the waist up, we are told. There MAY have been a racial motive involved in her postmortem staging and posing, which was degrading in nature compared to the other two girls'. It has been speculated.

The only official reason given for the moving of the bodies from the tent was that " he attempted to clean up the crime scene with their sheets and towels". No explanation has ever been given for what I and anyone else familiar with the facts of the crime consider to be staging/ posing of the bodies, nor did LE ever refer to the finding of the girls on or near Cookie Trail to be staging or posing. Obviously, moving 3 corpses and placing 2 inside sleeping bags and duct taping them into the fetal position is staging and posing. Also, wiping the blood from their bodies with their own sheets is part of the criminology. Less is known about exactly what was found on or with Denise Milner's body, except that she was found out in the open, partially unclothed. This indicates a deeper rage or lack of ' respect' for this particular victim compared to the postmortem posing of the other two. The two younger girls were also not victims of strangulation, which is usually viewed as a rage- filled method of murder.( Not that bludgeoning all 3 isn't indicative of rage.) The killer used unsophisticated, hands on methods to kill. He took considerable risk to return to the tent at least once to remove the two younger girls' bodies and their sleeping bags.

The most remarkable thing about the bodies as photographed in the sleeping bags is the lack of blood. They were obviously moved post mortem as the cloth sleeping bags show no blood at all, yet the wooden floor of their tent was extremely bloody and was removed on June 14, 1977, intact, in order to try to obtain forensic evidence. ( the two adult- sized footprints left in the girls' blood are known to the public).

The Guse and Farmer families have worked as crime victim advocates. Both families are well known and do speak with the media on occasion, when doing so could help bring justice to their daughters or other victims of crime.
As far as I know, the Milner family does not mention Denise's murder other than the one occasion to address the possible link with the tennis shoes and pink socks. One sister, who was born after Denise was murdered, has said that her life was restrictive because of what happened to her sister.
There was an unsuccessful civil suit filed by 2 of the families against the Girl Scouts for lack of proper security and supervision at Camp Scott. I don't know if the Milner family was one of the 2 families.
Perhaps the family's privacy has added to someone's sense of mystery about her?

All accounts I have read state that Denise was taken out of the tent alive. Then raped, bludgeoned and strangled somewhere on the camp grounds while the other campers slept. A low moaning sound was heard around 1:30 AM, which I believe was Denise,gagged and probably bound. I believe the method of her death was different in part, if not totally, because she was larger/ stronger and perhaps was the only girl who was awake when the attacks began. She may have also been the only girl to struggle, or if the first girl to be taken, assaulted and killed, thus the one who had to be kept quiet. The other two little girls were killed by blows to the head in their tent, where they lay. All 3 were raped, although it has not been said whether all 3 rapes were antemortem.
There are SOME differences in M.O. but not enough to lead me to believe that 2 perps. were involved. Definitely not to believe that a female was involved, as has been speculated from time to time due to DNA on a pillowcase which finally was ruled " Not excluded from belonging to one of the victims".

Not only was Hart on the run ( in the area) for years for the brutal rapes of 2 pregnant women in 1966, it should be noted that the 2 women he abducted and raped were teenagers, and only 3 months pregnant or less when they were attacked.
Thus, the victimology was not strikingly different nor was his methodology ( taking multiple victims at once).
JMO, and working from memory. I apologize in advance if there are any inaccuracies.

 

[Reannan]

Thank you SeekingJana, for a well written overview of this case. This case haunts me, and I just can't imagine that it can't be solved!!! This is one of the cases that haunts me, and that I have in my prayers as we enter 2012. I am so proud of all of our WS members who remember these victims and their families! It is important that we not forget, and that we continue to seek justice.

 

[SeekingJana]

Diane Denise Milner ( sometimes referred to as Diane, sometimes as Denise) was an African- American girl. There is an interview with on of the camp counselors who lived through this, who actually found the zipped up sleeping bags and realized why they were so heavy-- there was a little girl's body inside each one.

She answered questions on an old forum which I was able to access but did not save the link to. This counselor's first name is Carla.
She was asked by the other posters if it was unusual for an AA camper to be at Camp Scott in that era.
She said that the little Milner girl's presence was extremely unusual for that time and place, and that she was welcomed and socialized well with the other girls.

One last thing which COULD have some meaning and is not widely known- Denise Milner's father was a Tulsa, OK, police officer at the time his daughter was murdered.

I am wondering very strongly if she was targeted. Maybe this started out as a racial hate crime or maybe there had been contact/ anger on the perp's part against Police Officer Milner.

I did not know the family profile until last night. I have cross- referenced the info and her race and her father's career are factual.
I have wondered if Officer Milner had any contact with G. Hart, or if Hart isn't the perp, with the unknown perp.. or if he had somehow stood out in Hart's mind during either his arrest for the 2 rapes or during the search for Hart.. (Officer Milner probably was too young to have been involved in the double abduction and rape case against Hart, but one really never knows).. MAYBE D.D. Millner was sent " away to camp" because of a direct threat to the family's safety... Hart was a very trained tracker and lived in a cave a short distance from the camp intermittantly for what is believed to a significant period of time. He came and went as he pleased with help of fellow Cherokee nation members.

Whoever did this harassed the older teen camp counselors for weeks prior to it opening that season.
The note placed in the doughnut box which said " 4 girls will die", stealing of some of the counselors' underwear during their orientation before the campers arrived, and several acts of vandalism which was not usual for Camp Scott.
Most startling of all, and something which I believe was done by the murderer was the life- sized effigy with graphic simulated male genitalia found hanging from a large tree and which was in full view of all the little girls on the first night of camp.

 

[SeekingJana]

I bought the book " The Eighth Tent" today.
Although according to the Girl Scout system, it was the 7th tent...
I'm hoping the book will shed some light on the Milner family and anything known about Mr. Milner's potential prior experience with Gerald Hart.

IF I were writing a book about this case, you'd better believe I would look at any possible interactions between the policeman, the escaped rapist, and the little black girl in an otherwise all- white GS camp that year who was, IMO, the perp's main targeted victim.

 

[Pensfan]

Diane Denise Milner ( sometimes referred to as Diane, sometimes as Denise) was an African- American girl. There is an interview with on of the camp counselors who lived through this, who actually found the zipped up sleeping bags and realized why they were so heavy-- there was a little girl's body inside each one.

She answered questions on an old forum which I was able to access but did not save the link to. This counselor's first name is Carla.
She was asked by the other posters if it was unusual for an AA camper to be at Camp Scott in that era.
She said that the little Milner girl's presence was extremely unusual for that time and place, and that she was welcomed and socialized well with the other girls.

One last thing which COULD have some meaning and is not widely known- Denise Milner's father was a Tulsa, OK, police officer at the time his daughter was murdered.

I am wondering very strongly if she was targeted. Maybe this started out as a racial hate crime or maybe there had been contact/ anger on the perp's part against Police Officer Milner.

I did not know the family profile until last night. I have cross- referenced the info and her race and her father's career are factual.
I have wondered if Officer Milner had any contact with G. Hart, or if Hart isn't the perp, with the unknown perp.. or if he had somehow stood out in Hart's mind during either his arrest for the 2 rapes or during the search for Hart.. (Officer Milner probably was too young to have been involved in the double abduction and rape case against Hart, but one really never knows).. MAYBE D.D. Millner was sent " away to camp" because of a direct threat to the family's safety... Hart was a very trained tracker and lived in a cave a short distance from the camp intermittantly for what is believed to a significant period of time. He came and went as he pleased with help of fellow Cherokee nation members.

Whoever did this harassed the older teen camp counselors for weeks prior to it opening that season.
The note placed in the doughnut box which said " 4 girls will die", stealing of some of the counselors' underwear during their orientation before the campers arrived, and several acts of vandalism which was not usual for Camp Scott.
Most startling of all, and something which I believe was done by the murderer was the life- sized effigy with graphic simulated male genitalia found hanging from a large tree and which was in full view of all the little girls on the first night of camp.

First sentence was BBM.
Not true. I was an Oklahoma Girl Scout camper in the same type of tents a decade earlier than these murders. There was always a racially mixed group with whites, blacks, and Native Americans. Girl Scout meetings were usually held directly after school and the cost to participate was free, so many girls participated. The cost of camping was paid for by cookie sales and therefore, everyone was able to go camping.

Was Denise the only black child at that camp? If so, this would have been unusual from my experiences and my sister's experiences with Girl Scout camping.

I am still hoping to find information about the Camp Scott caretaker's son who was supposedly a pedophile. Has anyone found info on this? TIA

 

[Pensfan]

I tried to find the posts about Terry Martin on aetv.com, but they must have been moved. Did anyone else find these posts on aetv? This has interesting info. about him:
http://girlscoutmurders.yuku.com/topic/454#.TwY44pjN7zI

 

[Pensfan]

There is a map 3/4 of the way down on this page. I never knew this, but the Kiowa tent area sat really close to the parking lot. Any psychopath could have easily driven in there (or walked) and attacked that tent in the darkness. There was a large sign stating "Camp Scott" to notify everyone of the little girls' campground area. Ugh.

http://girlscoutmurders.yuku.com/topic/385/t/Camp-Scott-Photos.html#.TwY8JJjN7zI

 

[EveDallas]

I believe that I read in some news articles that Gary Hart the suspected killer of the Girl Scouts Murders DNA did not match what was found on the girls, but did anybody ever question the girls who was in around the tent where the girls were found about any of the male staff ( if there were any working there that day) who was paying any interested to any of the girls.

 

[HoneyWest]

Was Denise the only black child at that camp? If so, this would have been unusual from my experiences and my sister's experiences with Girl Scout camping.

I do not know about the rest of the units, but Denise was the only African American child in the Kiowa unit.

 

[HoneyWest]

I bought the book " The Eighth Tent" today.
Although according to the Girl Scout system, it was the 7th tent...
I'm hoping the book will shed some light on the Milner family and anything known about Mr. Milner's potential prior experience with Gerald Hart.

Seeking Jana, have you had a chance to read much of the book "Tent Number 8"? If so, what are your thoughts on it? I read it a few months ago and it is a very good book, but if the reader is expecting new theories, speculation, or exploration of a possible connection between Officer Milner and Gene Hart, they will be disappointed.

It is, however an extremely well-documented presentation of the legalities of the case and the trial. You get good insight on the personalities and experience of all the players in law enforcement, local politics, attorneys, and witnesses. I thought I knew just about everything there is to know about this case, but since we know so little about the actual trial preparations, I did gain some insight.

The author, Gloyd McCoy titled the book "Tent Number Eight" because if you look at the setup of the Kiowa unit, there's the counselor's tent plus the 7 tents housing the girls. Also, the tent which housed Lori, Denise, and Michele was the furthest away from the counselor's tent; it was the most secluded and had only 3 girls inside rather than the rest which each had 4.

Many years ago I read "Someone Cry For The Children" by brothers Mike and Dick Wilkerson, who both worked on the case as members of the OSBI. As you know, it's very hard to find without paying a huge price, but if you get a chance to read it, I think you'll find it very interesting. They tell the story mostly from law enforcement's point of view, detailed descriptions of the intense search for Gene Hart, and even delve into thier attempts at understanding the Cherokee culture, since they could not understand why the local Cherokee community were so protective of Hart and how he could possibly evade them continually. The book describes how they were able to meet with an actual medicine man just to see if it was possible that Hart was capable of using medicine himself, was he actually capable to "shape shifting", etc. (Yes, even now in today's world I know several full-bloods who believe 100% in shape shifting, among other things that white man would consider crazy). Anyway, to me, this book really pushes the theory that Gene Leroy Hart was the person who committed these horrendous crimes and that he did it alone. He was tried, acquitted, then dropped dead. They believed they had the right man, so not much effort has been put into really looking closely for other suspects, IMO.

 

[SeekingJana]

Seeking Jana, have you had a chance to read much of the book "Tent Number 8"? If so, what are your thoughts on it? I read it a few months ago and it is a very good book, but if the reader is expecting new theories, speculation, or exploration of a possible connection between Officer Milner and Gene Hart, they will be disappointed.

It is, however an extremely well-documented presentation of the legalities of the case and the trial. You get good insight on the personalities and experience of all the players in law enforcement, local politics, attorneys, and witnesses. I thought I knew just about everything there is to know about this case, but since we know so little about the actual trial preparations, I did gain some insight.

The author, Gloyd McCoy titled the book "Tent Number Eight" because if you look at the setup of the Kiowa unit, there's the counselor's tent plus the 7 tents housing the girls. Also, the tent which housed Lori, Denise, and Michele was the furthest away from the counselor's tent; it was the most secluded and had only 3 girls inside rather than the rest which each had 4.

Many years ago I read "Someone Cry For The Children" by brothers Mike and Dick Wilkerson, who both worked on the case as members of the OSBI. As you know, it's very hard to find without paying a huge price, but if you get a chance to read it, I think you'll find it very interesting. They tell the story mostly from law enforcement's point of view, detailed descriptions of the intense search for Gene Hart, and even delve into thier attempts at understanding the Cherokee culture, since they could not understand why the local Cherokee community were so protective of Hart and how he could possibly evade them continually. The book describes how they were able to meet with an actual medicine man just to see if it was possible that Hart was capable of using medicine himself, was he actually capable to "shape shifting", etc. (Yes, even now in today's world I know several full-bloods who believe 100% in shape shifting, among other things that white man would consider crazy). Anyway, to me, this book really pushes the theory that Gene Leroy Hart was the person who committed these horrendous crimes and that he did it alone. He was tried, acquitted, then dropped dead. They believed they had the right man, so not much effort has been put into really looking closely for other suspects, IMO.

I just watched the complete video of " Someone Cry For The Children" and
I'm reading " Tent Number Eight" right now. I am a bit dismayed by the lack of proper proofreading. There are many errors in the book...
I REALLY don't care how many objections the defense team made vs. the number the prosecution made, and that's about all I am getting out of the book. It is very dry reading for me.
One thing I picked up on early was a very strong hint from the author that he believes a female camp counselor was or could have been involved.
Did you pick up on the accusatory statements? He criticizes one teenaged camp leader more than he ever does Hart. She is the same counselor who was filmed in " Someone Cry For the Children", and she is the same person who said it was very unusual for an AA child to be at Camp Scott in that time period. 3 friends of Denise's were supposed to go with her, but backed out at the last moment.

I can find NO HINT of any connection between Officer Milner and Hart. I don't think there is one. I can't even find out anything about Milner as an officer for Tulsa PD other than that he was one. Denise's mother is the one interviewed from the Milner family. The other 2 girls' have both parents speaking of them.

I cannot find a print copy of " Someone Cry For the Children" but the excellent ( IMO) video is on You Tube in 6 parts. I was impressed with the interviews and very long narratives done by Johnny Cash and Dale Robertson with scenery from the area..

DNA from all 3 girls' bodies and from Gene Leroy Hart has PROVED that Hart was there. His semen DNA was found in all 3 victims. Positive matches. No way around that. He said it couldn't be his because he had a vasectomy. The vasectomy was not performed correctly-- he was still producing sperm.
Hart did it. I don't know if he was the lone perp. for certain, but I know he was there and I know he should have been found guilty if the State had proved their case. I don't think the DNA testing was advanced enough to prove beyond a doubt that he was the rapist at the time of the trial. A ratio could be given, but it must not have been understood by the jury in 78.
IMO,the Cherokee Nation should have had enough respect for US Justice to leave their shapeshifting theories and their " medicine" out of the investigation and trial. They played mind games with some OSBI agents who were Native American!!

 

[SeekingJana]

I believe that I read in some news articles that Gary Hart the suspected killer of the Girl Scouts Murders DNA did not match what was found on the girls, but did anybody ever question the girls who was in around the tent where the girls were found about any of the male staff ( if there were any working there that day) who was paying any interested to any of the girls.

Yes, Hart's semen was DNA matched to that found inside the 3 girls.
You can find the updated info on You Tube on " Someone Cry For The Children", which was produced by the Discovery channel and aired sometime in the late 80s. DNA testing had advanced to the point that they could definitely say that Hart was the attacker.

 

[SeekingJana]

First sentence was BBM.
Not true. I was an Oklahoma Girl Scout camper in the same type of tents a decade earlier than these murders. There was always a racially mixed group with whites, blacks, and Native Americans. Girl Scout meetings were usually held directly after school and the cost to participate was free, so many girls participated. The cost of camping was paid for by cookie sales and therefore, everyone was able to go camping.

Was Denise the only black child at that camp? If so, this would have been unusual from my experiences and my sister's experiences with Girl Scout camping.

I am still hoping to find information about the Camp Scott caretaker's son who was supposedly a pedophile. Has anyone found info on this? TIA

One of the camp counselors from Camp Scott in 1977 who was zeroed in on, Carla Wilhite, has specifically said that the presence of AA children was very unusual at Camp Scott during that time period. No other ethnic minority was addressed.
Maybe she was wrong. I don't know, as I wasn't there but she was. I tend to think there were strong racial differences in participation by geographical region at that time.

Denise was supposed to have 3 close girl friends accompany her. The other girls backed out at the last moment. I think that adds some clarity as to her motivation for going... She was going with her friends. And ended up alone, wrote a very sad letter to her parents that night about wanting to come home, and then was killed a few hours later.

After seeing Denise's mother talk about her on the video of " Someone Cry For The Children" I am convinced that Denise's father had no LE involvement with Hart.
I had wondered, but I don't think there was any contact with the escaped rapist in his police work.

Hart's DNA has been conclusively proven to be that of the rapist. Again, reference is " Someone Cry For The Children".
As to whether he had an accomplice or not, if he did, either the 2nd person left no DNA, or it was not preserved correctly, or the accomplice had a minimal role.

" Tent Number Eight" describes the blindfold/ gag combos which were placed on the girls. They are almost identical to what was used in the case of the 2 women Hart abducted and raped in 1966. They seem unusual in construction to me. I think this is a closed case by default as the perp died on June 4, 1979.

DNA doesn't lie. No one planted his DNA, IMO. Hart was born 1 mile from the camp and at the time of the murders, his mother lived 2 miles away. He spent years hiding with family and other Cherokee after his jail escape in 1973.
I think LE had the right man. They just didn't have the technology to prove the DNA science " beyond a reasonable doubt" to the jury. But, the proof WAS there and has been validated.

In my mind, the very tragic case is closed.

 

[SeekingJana]

The early case info that Hart's DNA was a "partial match" ( never that it was NOT a match) has been further clarified through the years.
The testing done for trial was done at the beginning of DNA testing, in 1978.

The source of the DNA was semen. In the late 80's, with advanced testing capabilities, it was conclusively matched to Hart and ONLY Hart.

My last post on the case. It was solved through science years ago.

 

[wfgodot]

Sorry. But "solving" of this case has never been done, "through science" or through other evidence. The DNA has not been matched to "Hart and only Hart." To say that it has is to shed false light on this tragedy. Would that it did - that knowledge would bring a sense of justice having been attained for the girls. But it does not.

 

[nomoresorrow]

For those who haven't watched the documentary "Someone Cry for the Children", it's available (in full) on you tube (1-6): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=UlWcMrPDBsE

The hair found on the duct tape binding Denise Milner's hands was a perfect match to Hart, the "unusual" sperm matched Hart and tests verified that, in fact, his vasectomy HAD NOT taken, and, while it may not be as precise as testing on a viable sample is today, the DNA match was 12/100,000 - I'd say that those factors, combined with the other evidence found, was/is enough to convince me that GRH was there and was absolutely involved. When you watch the documentary and listen to the account of one of Hart's past rape victims (one of the pregnant females he raped), her account is stunningly chilling, especially her description of the sound(s) he made while raping her... JMO~