OK OK - Joan Croft, 4, Woodward, 9 April 1947

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The Daily Oklahoman 09 Apr 1967, page 138 - Newspapers.com A bit about the 3 unidentified victims of the tornado.


 
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i don't think the men who took her would be alive now -- and they come across as "hired goons" to quote The Simpsons.

Someone wealthy enough to hire people willing to overlook the worsening weather before-hand -- as the tornado would not have suddenly sprung up from nowhere and it would take time to travel to a small town -- yeah i smell someone-- or some people -- with wealth and power. But that again comes back to the "Why Joan?" and "Why *only* Joan?".

This jigsaw is still without many pieces.
 
Is there any DNA from any of her surviving family? If she was kidnapped for a couple, perhaps some of her descendants are in a data base.

Remember they solved the 1930 kidnapping of Mary Agnes Moroney just last year with DNA from her children.
That's definitely worth a try.
 
plus Joan Gay was four - she wouldn't know too much, if anything, of her real self once she was older. I don't remember more than a couple of fragments from 3-4. In a world before the WWW, mass communication etc. she will have lived and may well have now died as a different little lady, teenager and adult woman.
 
Mary Agnes Moroney lived (as "Jeanette") until 2003, but from what I see so far, she never seemed to have realized, even after the web came in in the early nineties, that she *was* Mary Agnes. But that last decade of her life in which the web existed was far more primitive in terms of information and resources comparatively speaking than today.

I think it's very likely that what happened to Mary Agnes also happened to Joan Gay and we should indeed start looking to find Joan's children, grand-children and great-grand-children as soon as we can as is practicable.
 
Just a few observations from all of the reports.

First the two men in "khaki uniforms with a company logo". A couple of things strike me. First is that it 1947, right after the war, I believe that Joan's sister would probably know if these were military uniforms or those provided by a company and therefore having a company logo. So that raises the question; what companies in the local area were using khaki with a logo?

Second, I don't think there were any search and rescue or military people there yet when Joan was taken. According to the National Weather Service ( The Woodward Tornado of 9 April 1947 ) the tornado hit Woodward at 8.42PM and a neighbour took them to the hospital at 9.30pm. Joan was apparently taken at about midnight.The town was ablaze with fires and there was no telephone links to outside. Everything was chaos. It was dark and there were bodies everywhere. Joan and her sister had been placed in the basement of a hospital later that night. Apart from the sheriff's men I am not convinced that outside help had yet reached the town, and if it had then I doubt their focus was on moving a little girl with a minor leg injury while the town was essentially burning down. So this makes me believe that these 2 men were not hospital workers, SAR or sheriff's men (who the sister would probably recognise anyway). I found that by the next day the red cross had arrived, but they appear to have worn a grey, not khaki, uniform.

Third; These men asked for "The Croft children", but only took Joan. Apparently a nurse had witnessed them take Joan and questioned them and she was told they were taking Joan to Oklahoma City Hospital where her family was waiting for her, so she let them go. They must have been believable. It seems like the men didn't actually know what Joan looked like herself since they asked for the children and then only took Joan.

Fourth; I do not believe that these can have been "official" government or hospital workers simply because in the widely publicised search for Joan later they would surely have come forward to explain their actions if they had nothing to hide?

So where does that leave us? Well I am struggling to believe that in all this chaos, after only about 3 hours from the tornado hitting, there were opportunists about randomly stealing children in the area, or that they had been specifically paid by a childless couple to do so...how could you find someone to pay to steal a child after only 3 hours from finding out the torndao had hit? It also seems unlikely there were murderers and child abusers using this as an opportunity (though I admit not impossible).

So I have 3 ideas.
1) These men took Joan because she "had family waiting for them in Oklahoma", but apparently that family was not also waiting for her sister Geri. So that suggests this was Cleta's family who came to get her? However--by all accounts Cleta's family were very active in the searches so that seems unlikely too.

2) The nurse, Bess Irwin. She was under the impression that both of Joan's parents were dead. Did she contact someone like Georgia Tann who was running a child stealing ring believing that since both her parents were dead it wouldn't matter and earn herself a little money at the same time? Problem- The phones were out, how did she call anyone to come and get her?

3)That these two men were actually genuinely trying to be helpful and took Joan to the hospital in OKlahoma City. In the confusion nobody took note of who Joan was and she was unable to tell them who she was and where she came from and therefore the hospital turned her over to the state? Problem- 1) who told the men to take Joan? 2) I am sure in all the later publicity someone would have realised!

Every theory I have has several obvious flaws. This cannot have been planned much in advance since no one knew a tornado was coming. And these werent just random men stealing a child for nefarious reasons since they specifically asked for the Croft children. Could her father have been involved somehow...but then ...why??
 
And if you *do* tell them to bring back Joan, why not give your (hired?) men a picture or at least a description?

Remember, these men don't seem to have been some blokes asked quickly once the tornado had struck - indeed, this whole enterprise doesn't come across as the creation of an amateur.


Just a few observations from all of the reports.

First the two men in "khaki uniforms with a company logo". A couple of things strike me. First is that it 1947, right after the war, I believe that Joan's sister would probably know if these were military uniforms or those provided by a company and therefore having a company logo. So that raises the question; what companies in the local area were using khaki with a logo?

Second, I don't think there were any search and rescue or military people there yet when Joan was taken. According to the National Weather Service ( The Woodward Tornado of 9 April 1947 ) the tornado hit Woodward at 8.42PM and a neighbour took them to the hospital at 9.30pm. Joan was apparently taken at about midnight.The town was ablaze with fires and there was no telephone links to outside. Everything was chaos. It was dark and there were bodies everywhere. Joan and her sister had been placed in the basement of a hospital later that night. Apart from the sheriff's men I am not convinced that outside help had yet reached the town, and if it had then I doubt their focus was on moving a little girl with a minor leg injury while the town was essentially burning down. So this makes me believe that these 2 men were not hospital workers, SAR or sheriff's men (who the sister would probably recognise anyway). I found that by the next day the red cross had arrived, but they appear to have worn a grey, not khaki, uniform.

Third; These men asked for "The Croft children", but only took Joan. Apparently a nurse had witnessed them take Joan and questioned them and she was told they were taking Joan to Oklahoma City Hospital where her family was waiting for her, so she let them go. They must have been believable. It seems like the men didn't actually know what Joan looked like herself since they asked for the children and then only took Joan.

Fourth; I do not believe that these can have been "official" government or hospital workers simply because in the widely publicised search for Joan later they would surely have come forward to explain their actions if they had nothing to hide?

So where does that leave us? Well I am struggling to believe that in all this chaos, after only about 3 hours from the tornado hitting, there were opportunists about randomly stealing children in the area, or that they had been specifically paid by a childless couple to do so...how could you find someone to pay to steal a child after only 3 hours from finding out the torndao had hit? It also seems unlikely there were murderers and child abusers using this as an opportunity (though I admit not impossible).

So I have 3 ideas.
1) These men took Joan because she "had family waiting for them in Oklahoma", but apparently that family was not also waiting for her sister Geri. So that suggests this was Cleta's family who came to get her? However--by all accounts Cleta's family were very active in the searches so that seems unlikely too.

2) The nurse, Bess Irwin. She was under the impression that both of Joan's parents were dead. Did she contact someone like Georgia Tann who was running a child stealing ring believing that since both her parents were dead it wouldn't matter and earn herself a little money at the same time? Problem- The phones were out, how did she call anyone to come and get her?

3)That these two men were actually genuinely trying to be helpful and took Joan to the hospital in OKlahoma City. In the confusion nobody took note of who Joan was and she was unable to tell them who she was and where she came from and therefore the hospital turned her over to the state? Problem- 1) who told the men to take Joan? 2) I am sure in all the later publicity someone would have realised!

Every theory I have has several obvious flaws. This cannot have been planned much in advance since no one knew a tornado was coming. And these werent just random men stealing a child for nefarious reasons since they specifically asked for the Croft children. Could her father have been involved somehow...but then ...why??
 
And i wonder this -- how much of what we think is facts actually happened and how much is embroidery added in the decades since 1947?


Just a few observations from all of the reports.

First the two men in "khaki uniforms with a company logo". A couple of things strike me. First is that it 1947, right after the war, I believe that Joan's sister would probably know if these were military uniforms or those provided by a company and therefore having a company logo. So that raises the question; what companies in the local area were using khaki with a logo?

Second, I don't think there were any search and rescue or military people there yet when Joan was taken. According to the National Weather Service ( The Woodward Tornado of 9 April 1947 ) the tornado hit Woodward at 8.42PM and a neighbour took them to the hospital at 9.30pm. Joan was apparently taken at about midnight.The town was ablaze with fires and there was no telephone links to outside. Everything was chaos. It was dark and there were bodies everywhere. Joan and her sister had been placed in the basement of a hospital later that night. Apart from the sheriff's men I am not convinced that outside help had yet reached the town, and if it had then I doubt their focus was on moving a little girl with a minor leg injury while the town was essentially burning down. So this makes me believe that these 2 men were not hospital workers, SAR or sheriff's men (who the sister would probably recognise anyway). I found that by the next day the red cross had arrived, but they appear to have worn a grey, not khaki, uniform.

Third; These men asked for "The Croft children", but only took Joan. Apparently a nurse had witnessed them take Joan and questioned them and she was told they were taking Joan to Oklahoma City Hospital where her family was waiting for her, so she let them go. They must have been believable. It seems like the men didn't actually know what Joan looked like herself since they asked for the children and then only took Joan.

Fourth; I do not believe that these can have been "official" government or hospital workers simply because in the widely publicised search for Joan later they would surely have come forward to explain their actions if they had nothing to hide?

So where does that leave us? Well I am struggling to believe that in all this chaos, after only about 3 hours from the tornado hitting, there were opportunists about randomly stealing children in the area, or that they had been specifically paid by a childless couple to do so...how could you find someone to pay to steal a child after only 3 hours from finding out the torndao had hit? It also seems unlikely there were murderers and child abusers using this as an opportunity (though I admit not impossible).

So I have 3 ideas.
1) These men took Joan because she "had family waiting for them in Oklahoma", but apparently that family was not also waiting for her sister Geri. So that suggests this was Cleta's family who came to get her? However--by all accounts Cleta's family were very active in the searches so that seems unlikely too.

2) The nurse, Bess Irwin. She was under the impression that both of Joan's parents were dead. Did she contact someone like Georgia Tann who was running a child stealing ring believing that since both her parents were dead it wouldn't matter and earn herself a little money at the same time? Problem- The phones were out, how did she call anyone to come and get her?

3)That these two men were actually genuinely trying to be helpful and took Joan to the hospital in OKlahoma City. In the confusion nobody took note of who Joan was and she was unable to tell them who she was and where she came from and therefore the hospital turned her over to the state? Problem- 1) who told the men to take Joan? 2) I am sure in all the later publicity someone would have realised!

Every theory I have has several obvious flaws. This cannot have been planned much in advance since no one knew a tornado was coming. And these werent just random men stealing a child for nefarious reasons since they specifically asked for the Croft children. Could her father have been involved somehow...but then ...why??
 
And i wonder this -- how much of what we think is facts actually happened and how much is embroidery added in the decades since 1947?
Oh I think this may be the case, this is such a mysterious case that things must have been added later. I guess the basics that we know are:
1) Tornado hits at 8.42pm, mum dies, dad is badly injured and taken to a hotel in town and then later transferred to Oklahoma hospital, Joan (slightly injured) and Geri are taken by a neighbour to the town hospital.
2) 9.30pm Joan and Geri are left by a neighbour at the hospital. Joan is treated and they are placed on cots in the basement.
3) At some point before midnight their Aunt finds them in the hospital but then leaves again without them.
4) Close to Midnight 2 men in Khaki ask for The Croft children and take a crying Joan with them....and she vanishes!
 
This is more face-palming about how little people elsewhere online understand about the past:

A pair of creepy men in fake uniforms -- yes indeed - and also, yes, the nurse did challenge them verbally, but it was 1947 in the mid-west, so people today writing online and basically texting down that she should have been like Ellen Ripley with Newt smacks of hindsight bias.
 
This is more face-palming about how little people elsewhere online understand about the past:

A pair of creepy men in fake uniforms -- yes indeed - and also, yes, the nurse did challenge them verbally, but it was 1947 in the mid-west, so people today writing online and basically texting down that she should have been like Ellen Ripley with Newt smacks of hindsight bias.
Hey, have I missed something? What are you referencing?
Fake uniforms? Who said they were fake? They might have been totally legit for all we know. How can anyone know they were fake? And as for creepy...who says they were creepy?
As far as I can tell the nurse took all appropriate action for a disaster zone in the time period. TBH
I would have liked to hear the nurse's description of the uniform.

Anyway, I think that's what you were gettign at, but I couldn't see what made you mad?
 
Hey, have I missed something? What are you referencing?
Fake uniforms? Who said they were fake? They might have been totally legit for all we know. How can anyone know they were fake? And as for creepy...who says they were creepy?
As far as I can tell the nurse took all appropriate action for a disaster zone in the time period. TBH
I would have liked to hear the nurse's description of the uniform.

Anyway, I think that's what you were gettign at, but I couldn't see what made you mad?
No, no, I'm trying to say that *other people* elsewhere online seem to believe that the hospital staff could have done a lot more -- and with an added undertone of "the nurse, being a woman, should not have let two unknown men take a four-year-old girl away" -- but it was 1947 not 2024.
 
I like #3 but I also wonder if perhaps, the weather being what it was, that the driver, somewhere between Woodward and Oklahoma City (if that was even where they were headed to), lost control of the vehicle on a wet or damaged section of road and all were killed that night in a car crash.
Just a few observations from all of the reports.

First the two men in "khaki uniforms with a company logo". A couple of things strike me. First is that it 1947, right after the war, I believe that Joan's sister would probably know if these were military uniforms or those provided by a company and therefore having a company logo. So that raises the question; what companies in the local area were using khaki with a logo?

Second, I don't think there were any search and rescue or military people there yet when Joan was taken. According to the National Weather Service ( The Woodward Tornado of 9 April 1947 ) the tornado hit Woodward at 8.42PM and a neighbour took them to the hospital at 9.30pm. Joan was apparently taken at about midnight.The town was ablaze with fires and there was no telephone links to outside. Everything was chaos. It was dark and there were bodies everywhere. Joan and her sister had been placed in the basement of a hospital later that night. Apart from the sheriff's men I am not convinced that outside help had yet reached the town, and if it had then I doubt their focus was on moving a little girl with a minor leg injury while the town was essentially burning down. So this makes me believe that these 2 men were not hospital workers, SAR or sheriff's men (who the sister would probably recognise anyway). I found that by the next day the red cross had arrived, but they appear to have worn a grey, not khaki, uniform.

Third; These men asked for "The Croft children", but only took Joan. Apparently a nurse had witnessed them take Joan and questioned them and she was told they were taking Joan to Oklahoma City Hospital where her family was waiting for her, so she let them go. They must have been believable. It seems like the men didn't actually know what Joan looked like herself since they asked for the children and then only took Joan.

Fourth; I do not believe that these can have been "official" government or hospital workers simply because in the widely publicised search for Joan later they would surely have come forward to explain their actions if they had nothing to hide?

So where does that leave us? Well I am struggling to believe that in all this chaos, after only about 3 hours from the tornado hitting, there were opportunists about randomly stealing children in the area, or that they had been specifically paid by a childless couple to do so...how could you find someone to pay to steal a child after only 3 hours from finding out the torndao had hit? It also seems unlikely there were murderers and child abusers using this as an opportunity (though I admit not impossible).

So I have 3 ideas.
1) These men took Joan because she "had family waiting for them in Oklahoma", but apparently that family was not also waiting for her sister Geri. So that suggests this was Cleta's family who came to get her? However--by all accounts Cleta's family were very active in the searches so that seems unlikely too.

2) The nurse, Bess Irwin. She was under the impression that both of Joan's parents were dead. Did she contact someone like Georgia Tann who was running a child stealing ring believing that since both her parents were dead it wouldn't matter and earn herself a little money at the same time? Problem- The phones were out, how did she call anyone to come and get her?

3)That these two men were actually genuinely trying to be helpful and took Joan to the hospital in OKlahoma City. In the confusion nobody took note of who Joan was and she was unable to tell them who she was and where she came from and therefore the hospital turned her over to the state? Problem- 1) who told the men to take Joan? 2) I am sure in all the later publicity someone would have realised!

Every theory I have has several obvious flaws. This cannot have been planned much in advance since no one knew a tornado was coming. And these werent just random men stealing a child for nefarious reasons since they specifically asked for the Croft children. Could her father have been involved somehow...but then ...why??
 

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