OK OK - Rev. Carol Daniels, 61, Anadarko, 23 Aug 2009

[colette]

Dennis Rader took one of his deceased victims to his church, maybe IK wanted to "one up Rader" by having a living victim in church... who knows.

Sgt. Tom Lee testified Rader told him that after strangling his 53-year-old neighbor, Marine Hedge, in her home on April 27, 1985, he took her body to his church where he took photographs of her in bondage positions.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/08/18/btk.killings.wed/

 

[Backwoods]

Dear Backwoods,

I apologize for not understanding the format of the site. I noticed that you said something positive to each of my posts and thank you for your kind thoughts.

No worries, AQuestion -- I really didn't "reply", just "thanked" your post, which, to me anyhow, is just a way of saying thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and info, which possibly may be useful.

 

[AQuestion]

Dear WebSleuths members,

You are just the best people I have ever met on the internet. I am stunned by the politeness shown on this site and it's members. I am so glad that I came here and have met so many wonderful people. I will try really hard to to be as kind and pleasant as you all, it is a stretch for me as I am a very defensive person.

Dear Colette, I am very familiar with the BTK case. My username was catchputz on the Kansas city newspapers website. I had accurately predicted that BTK was a church goer even though only 1/4 of serial killers attend church. While BTK did stage Ms. Hedge at his church, he was unique in this. He didn't use just any church, he used the one that he was a Deacon at and he had the keys to the church. It should be noted that he did not leave her body at the church, the pictures were just for him. BTK did not wish to get caught and did not want others to know he took Ms. Hedge had been brought to his church.

Every year pastors are killed in their churches. Most pastors are killed inside their churches because that is where you find pastors. Ms. Hedge was not a pastor, was killed in her home and taken to the church for pictures. I don't believe Pastor Daniels killer was a member of her church because the two old people that were members of her church are unlikely suspects for many reasons.

 

[OEJ]

Dear WebSleuths members,

You are just the best people I have ever met on the internet. I am stunned by the politeness shown on this site and it's members. I am so glad that I came here and have met so many wonderful people. I will try really hard to to be as kind and pleasant as you all, it is a stretch for me as I am a very defensive person.

Dear Colette, I am very familiar with the BTK case. My username was catchputz on the Kansas city newspapers website. I had accurately predicted that BTK was a church goer even though only 1/4 of serial killers attend church. While BTK did stage Ms. Hedge at his church, he was unique in this. He didn't use just any church, he used the one that he was a Deacon at and he had the keys to the church. It should be noted that he did not leave her body at the church, the pictures were just for him. BTK did not wish to get caught and did not want others to know he took Ms. Hedge had been brought to his church.

Every year pastors are killed in their churches. Most pastors are killed inside their churches because that is where you find pastors. Ms. Hedge was not a pastor, was killed in her home and taken to the church for pictures. I don't believe Pastor Daniels killer was a member of her church because the two old people that were members of her church are unlikely suspects for many reasons.

Yeah, Rader just took Mrs. Hedge to the church so he would be uninterrupted. Nothing more. Ms. Daniels was probably killed at the pulpit because her killer knew she was there and quite often alone. That was his opportunity to have his way with a woman in the way he wanted to do it. Her arms were probably spread out "like a crucifix" as a visual of total submission to the killer. Lots of women killed in a sexual homicide are left with their arms wide like that. It shows her vulnerability. I don't believe this was a retaliatory type crime toward the religious but a sexual homicide.

 

[bessie]

Dear Colette,

A pleasure to meet you. I have attempted to follow this thread over the years as a non-member. I have not however read the other threads and am unclear as to the proper etiquette. I don't have any insider information; but, have somehow become a resource regarding this case. I readily understand that my opinions are no more valid than anyone else's; but, I have followed this case since it happened.

Welcome, AQuestion. Thanks for posting. Here's a link I think you'll find helpful.

Rules, Etiquette & Information
​

And if you have any questions at all, please don't hesitate to send a private message to a moderator or admin. We'll be more than happy to answer them for you. :seeya:

 

[Foxfire]

A very interesting msm article link posted by Leader6518 on another WS Thread concerning social media's value for law enforcement agencies in ongoing and cold case investigations;

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/48-hours-can-facebook-help-solve-cold-cases/

 

[SeriouslySearching]

What made Pastor Daniels and her church different is quite simple: She showed up like clockwork every Sunday to a church with no congregation. I am willing to go out on a limb and say this was very different than any other church in Anadarko. She was the most convenient victim.

It had to be well planned and carried out with precision down to the last detail to avoid capture. He must have studied the area and had to be aware of what went on during the time he allotted to kill her. He had an escape route planned and the only thing that went awry was the man who stated he saw him leave the church. The killer could have considered a few wandering people might be a potential problem, but like it turned out...the man was considered not to be a credible witness due to his lifestyle.

There would have been many damaged buildings in Anadarko from the tornado. The major damage was in the northeast section of the city according to one report I found: http://www.kswo.com/story/10365574/tornado-touches-down-in-anadarko To hide a vehicle in a damaged and/or vacant building would not have been difficult or to park it out of view by piles of rubble or brush. This would have offered him enough privacy to change and clean up before he drove out of the area. The police didn't set up a search immediately upon arrival at the scene. It took time for them to call in people and get things started, imo. He obviously had time to get away.

 

[Foxfire]

Interesting article on IK; Travels, lack of patterns, etc..

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/crim...is-mark-in-north-texas-but-to-what-degree.ece

 

[Foxfire]

Israel Keyes virtually warned the FBI Special Agents/interviewers on 05/29/2012 that he intended to commit suicide and take the names of his unknown innocent victims to the grave with him.. IK committed suicide in his jail cell less than 7 months after this warning. sometime during the night of 12/01-02/2012...

Imo, psychopaths have a reason for everything they say and everything they do.. This date was not chosen by IK at random.. It had specific meaning to him, imo..
I will elaborate in a future post..


05/29/2012 FBI Interview - Video & Transcript
https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net...x296/1962820_746625182038355_1593878537_n.jpg

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Israel Keyes virtually warned the FBI Special Agents/interviewers on 05/29/2012 that he intended to commit suicide and take the names of his unknown innocent victims to the grave with him.. IK committed suicide in his jail cell less than 7 months after this warning. sometime during the night of 12/01-02/2012...

Imo, psychopaths have a reason for everything they say and everything they do.. This date was not chosen by IK at random.. It had specific meaning to him, imo..
I will elaborate in a future post..


05/29/2012 FBI Interview - Video & Transcript
https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net...x296/1962820_746625182038355_1593878537_n.jpg

This link took me to a pinterest quote.

Curious to hear your theory on the suicide date. Do you believe specific dates played a role in his killings in particular Pastor Daniels' murder?

ETA: We shouldn't make this thread about him. We need to be careful what we are bringing here relates directly to this case, imo.

 

[Foxfire]

This link took me to a pinterest quote.

Curious to hear your theory on the suicide date. Do you believe specific dates played a role in his killings in particular Pastor Daniels' murder?

ETA: We shouldn't make this thread about him. We need to be careful what we are bringing here relates directly to this case, imo.

Sorry SS, I guess my fingers work faster than my brain. Here's the correct Link to the 05/29/2012 IK FBI interview;

http://www.fbi.gov/anchorage/video/israel-keyes-interview-may-29-2012

RE: Making Pastor Carol Daniels thread about IK..

I agree SeriouslySearching. It is a very fine line when a case grows almost 5 years cold without any known suspects, Only known rare traits of the suspect, and indications of a probable botched initial investigation, imo.

SS, this is one of the websleuth threads that explains why I feel 12/01/2012 was the specific day IK choose to commit suicide and take his many unknown innocent victims to the grave with him.. 12/01/2012 was the original release date of the Frozen Ground Movie which was based on a true story; AK serial killer robert hansen, and filmed in Anchorage, AK. IK, was a hybrid Emulator and would have been well versed on robert hansen's trail of terror. The last item on a prolific serial killer's bucket list is notoriety...

Begin reading Lucky1's comment #4
ISRAEL KEYES: Profile and Background - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Foxfire]

The fourth anniversary was yesterday, 08.24. 1461 days.

I thought of Carol Daniels today as I was reading information about Israel Keyes.

He told investigators that he had considered taking victims to a church, where he would either simply leave the body to be found, or to burn the church down with the victim's body in it. He drove around in Vermont, looking for suitable churches in small towns. He had issues with organized religion. He was also know to use things to hasten the decomp of bodies.

He did burn a house down in Texas, so it's known that he was an arsonist.

I think it's a long shot that he was involved in Carol's murder, but I don't think it can be completely written off. IK wasn't known to be in the OK/TX area at the time of her murder. He lived in Alaska at the time, however he traveled extensively and his mother and some siblings lived in Texas at the time.

The total number of days between Sunday, August 23rd, 2009; when Pastor Carol Daniels was viciously murdered and today; Monday, April 21st, 2014 is 1,702 days.

When wfgodot posted the above comment, there were 7 pages of comments on PCD's WS thread after 52 months. Snoopster made the post above concerning IK being a possible suspect in PCD's murder 261 days ago. In the past 4 months since Snoopster's post, there is now 11 pages and renewed interest resulting in awareness being created in her case; 25,750+ total views.. Awareness is the key in missing/murdered person's investigation. 'Silence is the predator's most lethal weapon'..

Imo, there are too many Parallels for IK not to be considered a prime suspect/poi in Pastor Carol Daniels heinous murder. Imo, he had the very rare psychopathic traits, motive, means, and opportunity.. IK, was analogous to a chameleon and possessed no human emotions, nor a victim profile..
IK was the angel of death; the Devil's Deciple, imo..

RE: Arsons; IK admitted to between 20 & 30 arsons as a teen.. IK, was 34 years old when apprehended..

IK chased storms and other natural disasters to bid construction jobs - (Anardarko Tornadoes 05/2009)
IK detested Christianity and what it represented.. IK described fantasy of killing or taking a victim to a Church and leaving them or setting it ablaze.
* IK Tatoos; upside down cross & pentagram
* Suspicious Bar fire adjacent to Anardarko Daily News 08-22-2009(all nighter); the day prior to PCD's murder. (less than competent investigation by arson investigator, imo)
* 38 cal firearm (IK preferred 38 cal revolver)found by ADN owners in the grass next to the gazebo in the park across the street at another bar(firearm assumed by APD to be from the bar fight the night before the fire).
* IK was very intelligent, calculating, deflective, manipulative, and meticulous.
* IK was a necrophiliac which indicates extreme escalation, imo.
* IK was alcoholic and drank daily in an attempt to wash away his demons, imo.
* IK was very proficient with his knife..
* Mr R described person wearing hoodie & wearing a mask - IK wore masks and hoodies (caught on bank sec cam in another state during bank robbery)

 

[AQuestion]

What made Pastor Daniels and her church different is quite simple: She showed up like clockwork every Sunday to a church with no congregation. I am willing to go out on a limb and say this was very different than any other church in Anadarko. She was the most convenient victim.

Dear SeriouslySearching,

A pleasure to meet you. The average church in the United States is about 50 people. What I find interesting about the church in Anadarko was that her denomination did not rent out space to other churches as is often done. The church I belong to has been offered the use of church space by other denominations and this is also not uncommon, though there is usually a small rental fee to cover utilities. I believe, as reported, that she drove there to see two elderly members who had been integral to the church during it's better days. I believe she was saving them the long drive to Oklahoma City and I believe they showed up as often as possible, they showed up the day she was killed.

The problems I have with Mr. Keyes being the killer are the same I have with it being anyone from outside of Anadarko. It is a very small town with a history of racial divisions and a distrust of the police and outsiders. In order to know that the church was sometimes empty one would have to have watched it over many Sundays. It would be a touch place to stake out without being seen and noticed.

Let us assume for a moment that Mr. Keyes came to Anadarko to work on rebuilding after the tornado. He would have been noticed by someone I believe. As for the fire, I believe it was unrelated. There was also a heavy metal band playing in town that weekend who wore "Satanist" shirts and they were interviewed and found to not have been involved.

In the end the problem with the case remains the same. Evidence. IK never, that we know of, claimed to have killed Pastor Daniels so we are left with what we do have and that is very little. The church is gone and other than DNA evidence that was destroyed by the killer, we are left with a door that was removed by the police.

If Keyes killed Pastor Daniels, it can never be proven. I prefer to believe that the killer can be caught. What is needed is an admission, finding evidence (such as any items the killer may have taken from the scene) or a witness that we are still unaware of. At this point in time, I think the detective in charge of the case (and there is one according to the papers) would be best of eliminating people who we know were close to the scene and working outwards. That is merely my opinion.

To the moderators, I have now read the terms and conditions and will try my best to stay within them.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Sorry SS, I guess my fingers work faster than my brain. Here's the correct Link to the 05/29/2012 IK FBI interview;

http://www.fbi.gov/anchorage/video/israel-keyes-interview-may-29-2012

I agree SeriouslySearching. It is a very fine line when a case grows almost 5 years cold without any known suspects, Only known rare traits of the suspect, and indications of a probable botched initial investigation, imo.

SS, this is one of the websleuth threads that explains why I feel 12/01/2012 was the specific day IK choose to commit suicide and take his many unknown innocent victims to the grave with him.. 12/01/2012 was the original release date of the Frozen Ground Movie which was based on a true story; AK serial killer robert hansen, and filmed in Anchorage, AK. IK, was a hybrid Emulator and would have been well versed on robert hansen's trail of terror. The last item on a prolific serial killer's bucket list is notoriety...

Begin reading Lucky1's comment #4
ISRAEL KEYES: Profile and Background - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

I think we may have to disagree on this point. I don't see any reason he would choose to commit suicide on a movie release date. A movie premier about a serial killer would be the last thing on his mind in jail facing his only way out. He was selfish to the bone. His suicide was about himself not anyone else, but I think he took the first chance he got...like he said about trying to escape...if there was only a 1% chance, he had to take it. He saw a window of opportunity and the date didn't matter to him, imo. He wanted an out quickly and the way he went about it, he made certain it was final.

To emphasize my take on IK's selfishness: I believe when IK was asking the FBI to keep it all on the "down low" for his daughter it was only about him. He cared about others stealing his brilliant plans. He was trying to minimize what went public in order to protect what IK felt he "owned" and while he was proud to tell the FBI...it was still his. The rest he took with him as his last selfish act.

Now his murders could be different and be on dates important to him for reasons he never disclosed. I could see this as a possibility.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Dear SeriouslySearching,

A pleasure to meet you. The average church in the United States is about 50 people. What I find interesting about the church in Anadarko was that her denomination did not rent out space to other churches as is often done. The church I belong to has been offered the use of church space by other denominations and this is also not uncommon, though there is usually a small rental fee to cover utilities. I believe, as reported, that she drove there to see two elderly members who had been integral to the church during it's better days. I believe she was saving them the long drive to Oklahoma City and I believe they showed up as often as possible, they showed up the day she was killed.

The problems I have with Mr. Keyes being the killer are the same I have with it being anyone from outside of Anadarko. It is a very small town with a history of racial divisions and a distrust of the police and outsiders. In order to know that the church was sometimes empty one would have to have watched it over many Sundays. It would be a touch place to stake out without being seen and noticed.

Let us assume for a moment that Mr. Keyes came to Anadarko to work on rebuilding after the tornado. He would have been noticed by someone I believe. As for the fire, I believe it was unrelated. There was also a heavy metal band playing in town that weekend who wore "Satanist" shirts and they were interviewed and found to not have been involved.

In the end the problem with the case remains the same. Evidence. IK never, that we know of, claimed to have killed Pastor Daniels so we are left with what we do have and that is very little. The church is gone and other than DNA evidence that was destroyed by the killer, we are left with a door that was removed by the police.

If Keyes killed Pastor Daniels, it can never be proven. I prefer to believe that the killer can be caught. What is needed is an admission, finding evidence (such as any items the killer may have taken from the scene) or a witness that we are still unaware of. At this point in time, I think the detective in charge of the case (and there is one according to the papers) would be best of eliminating people who we know were close to the scene and working outwards. That is merely my opinion.

The church had seen better days and my guess renting it out wasn't an option. The owner/denomination would have to make repairs and shell out money to that end. Regardless, it was still an empty rundown church with no congregation and it left her as an easy target.

Does anyone know why the Wilsons arrived at noon since Pastor Daniels arrived 2 hours before? Was it a meeting or a service? What time did the pastor usually leave Anadarko on Sundays?

I respect your view on churches overall, but having grown up in rural Oklahoma and having attended one of those small town churches...I am well versed (really...they made us learn those verses ). I also know how the racial divides run and the wariness of outsiders in certain communities throughout the state. This is not exclusive to Anadarko. The racial past in Anadarko is similar to happenings in Tulsa and other Oklahoma communities throughout the early 1900s. I am not seeing any references from our racial history in the way this crime was carried out. I won't go into detail, but I think the way she was killed and left would have been different if this was about race. The killer would want people to know it was the motive and the message would have been clear, imo.

The aftermath of a tornado brings in people from across the US. They flock for many reasons. From honest servitude to ripping people off for construction projects, they arrive with the promise of aid. He would have blended in and no one would have given him a second look. He appeared and acted normal. And from what I have read, he was a decent carpenter. What do you think would have made him stand out above other strangers in town during that time? Even his satanic type tats would have fit in that weekend. The fires are questionable, but what are the chances of all this happening in that sleepy little town at once?

It was said he chose his prey when they crossed his path at some point, but he came prepared for a kill. It could have been as simple as he was driving down the street and saw her enter the building so he began to stalk her. IK was patient. (One kill kit was put into place for 2 years before he decided to use it.)

Could it be a local? Anything is possible, but I think this was not his first murder so where are other bodies around the area? Not a murder like it since 2009 (that I am aware of at least). He does this beyond brutal slaying and never kills again? How did he know how to hide his DNA and evidence? How did he go back to a normal life and no one suspected him?

Evidence? We all can surmise not enough was done to secure the scene and inexperience in dealing with such horror was an issue. The door evidently turned up nothing. However, if it was IK...the proof is in the kill kit. It could have her clothes and probably other items (the murder weapon/weapons he likely would have tossed). Did others see the killer and, like Richardson, were afraid to speak up because of their lifestyle?

Still...I do have to wonder about this person in Chicago.

OSBI agents may have new suspect in the murder of an Anadarko pastor

http://www.kswo.com/story/17129605/...w-suspect-in-the-murder-of-an-anadarko-pastor

 

[Foxfire]

Oh, this is just Israel Keyes again? And it is unsolved because of an antiquated investigative strategy of silence? Thanks Foxfire!

'There you go again'.. Quote by President Ronald Reagan

 

[Foxfire]

IK Discussion Thread
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220900&highlight=israel+keyes+discussion
______________________
Foxfire comment #99 - RE: more info on IK choosing a Church and needing more recognition for his many under reported crimes while remaining anonymous - see BBM
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220900&highlight=israel+keyes+discussion&page=4
______________________
Acting at Random - Israel Keyes
http://israelkeyes.blogspot.com/
______________________
IK had family living in the Dallas, TX area.. Driving route from Anchorage, AK to Dallas TX
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Ana...a4f647678f!2m2!1d-96.8004511!2d32.7801399!3e0

 

[Foxfire]

<respectfully snipped for focus>

The aftermath of a tornado brings in people from across the US. They flock for many reasons. From honest servitude to ripping people off for construction projects, they arrive with the promise of aid. He would have blended in and no one would have given him a second look. He appeared and acted normal. And from what I have read, he was a decent carpenter. What do you think would have made him stand out above other strangers in town during that time? Even his satanic type tats would have fit in that weekend. The fires are questionable, but what are the chances of all this happening in that sleepy little town at once?

It was said he chose his prey when they crossed his path at some point, but he came prepared for a kill. It could have been as simple as he was driving down the street and saw her enter the building so he began to stalk her. IK was patient. (One kill kit was put into place for 2 years before he decided to use it.)

Could it be a local? Anything is possible, but I think this was not his first murder so where are other bodies around the area? Not a murder like it since 2009 (that I am aware of at least). He does this beyond brutal slaying and never kills again? How did he know how to hide his DNA and evidence? How did he go back to a normal life and no one suspected him?

Evidence? We all can surmise not enough was done to secure the scene and inexperience in dealing with such horror was an issue. The door evidently turned up nothing. However, if it was IK...the proof is in the kill kit. It could have her clothes and probably other items (the murder weapon/weapons he likely would have tossed). Did others see the killer and, like Richardson, were afraid to speak up because of their lifestyle?

Still...I do have to wonder about this person in Chicago.

OSBI agents may have new suspect in the murder of an Anadarko pastor

http://www.kswo.com/story/17129605/...w-suspect-in-the-murder-of-an-anadarko-pastor

Yes, SeriouslySearching, IK was a stealth predator analogous to a chameleon lizard, and would have gone unnoticed/blending in, as he had done so many times before..actual number unknown..

IK was arrested March 13, 2012, in Lufkin, Texas, three days after the OSBI announced that they may have a new suspect in Pastor Carol Daniels' murder March 10, 2012. Was this due to an FBI CODIS or IAFIS hit linking the two crimes through the resources of these FBI BAU VICAP databases? I find the timing of these two incidents very curious..

Did the FBI/APD find fingerprints or touch DNA in the AK Samantha Koenig investigation? Did the OSBI/APD find fingerprints or DNA in Pastor Carol Daniels murder investigation?
Was there an FBI CODIS DNA/Fingerprint match that tied the two crimes, yet
no identity entered into the FBI's databases?
The FBI nor the OSBI releases this info publicly....

The FBI was tracking IK's movements while using Samantha Koenig's ATM cards and likely the ping from her cell phone when he contacted her father for the ransom demand. Yet, it is unlikely that they knew the person responsible; IK's identity until arrested, imo..

 

[Foxfire]

I think we may have to disagree on this point. I don't see any reason he would choose to commit suicide on a movie release date. A movie premier about a serial killer would be the last thing on his mind in jail facing his only way out. He was selfish to the bone. His suicide was about himself not anyone else, but I think he took the first chance he got...like he said about trying to escape...if there was only a 1% chance, he had to take it. He saw a window of opportunity and the date didn't matter to him, imo. He wanted an out quickly and the way he went about it, he made certain it was final.

To emphasize my take on IK's selfishness: I believe when IK was asking the FBI to keep it all on the "down low" for his daughter it was only about him. He cared about others stealing his brilliant plans. He was trying to minimize what went public in order to protect what IK felt he "owned" and while he was proud to tell the FBI...it was still his. The rest he took with him as his last selfish act.

Now his murders could be different and be on dates important to him for reasons he never disclosed. I could see this as a possibility.

<SS Comment above Respectfully BBM for Focus>


SeriouslySearching, I don't expect you to agree with my theory and I agree that everything IK did was very selfish and always about him...
IK made many statements during the released FBI interviews indicating that the dots will be connected eventually; one day the truth of his trail of terror will be revealed. Although IK committed suicide 12/01-02/2012, he presently retains his legal representation. Why?

SS, I have been researching AK SK Robert Christian Hansen for over five years now. Long before Hybrid Emulator Israel Keyes came on the scene. I came across SK RCH while researching & backtracking another Hybrid Emulator SK Gary Hilton. GMH, came up with the plot and assisted in writing the script for a 1994 movie; Deadly Run; hunting humans. The movies plot & script was based on AK SK RC Hansen. The frozen ground movie was also based on AK SK RCH and was filmed in Anchorage, AK. IK's FBI timeline shows him near his home during the filming.. Imo, it is likely that IK worked on the movie's construction crew, or at the least hung around the movie set.

IK, shared that he enjoyed going to bars and fooling other patrons that thought he was normal like them.. Can you imagine the enjoyment that he would have received from mingling with the cast and crew of a serial killer movie? It doesn't get any more ironic than that, imo.. The last statement made in the movie's trailer is, "Have you ever seen anything like this before"??

IK made the statement that he was not getting the attention that he deserved for his past crimes and ability to remain stealth from law enforcement for 14 years. AK SK RC Hansen was being portrayed in The Frozen Ground movie as Alaska's most prolific serial killer ever.

Only the Angel of Death; Israel Keyes, knew this movie's portrayal was untrue..
SeriouslySearching, the last item on a prolific serial killer's bucket list is notoriety. To receive this desired notoriety, they must first get caught..
Israel Keyes; very disciplined, violated his first rule of prey when he abducted Samantha Koenig from his hometown of Anchorage, AL.. Why??

Warning Graphic- Based on a True Story of AK SK Robert Hansen; 'Butcher Baker'
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a85xD6p9krw&hd=1"]The Frozen Ground Trailer - YouTube[/ame]

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Fox, I will come to the IK threads to debate your theory on the movie issue etc. I will even bring your post over.

New thread on IK's forum: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10475763&posted=1#post10475763