OK OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #2 *Arrests*

[concernedmother]

I didn’t even think about them trying to call 911. That sounds like as good a reason as any for bullets to fly.

JK may have been on her phone with her husband.

 

[CuriousCricket]

JK may have been on her phone with her husband.

I've always wondered about that as he arrived at the scene so quickly after the Kia was found.

 

[NDreu]

If true, I wonder if there were shell casings found.

JK may have been on her phone with her husband.

I do wonder if she snapped off a photo and sent it? That would be a miracle and potentially an investigative game changer! Also wonder if the women made it to 4 Corners and snapped an image of nobody there?

VB imo had many years of experience with dealing with WR and TA games and shenanigans and no doubt was used to taking photos or recordings for evidence imo as it could be preserved and presented in her defense.

Moo

 

[concernedmother]

Oh I like that. I hope so.

 

[Bogbacal2]

That possibility makes me ill.

<modsnip: sleuthing non POI>

Same! Me too. How else could the bodies have been hidden so long? Because they are no more? Too risky and incomplete with hogs. If a local is involved, it’s got to be someone with resources to pull this off. Human, money and land. Someone powerful? Motive? Was it for love?

cattle incinerators, hog farms…I’m just sick! What in the he** did these poor women go through? It seems as though crimes are becoming more heinous, more prevalent-one after the other. Hopefully people don’t become desensitized to cases like this one and to crimes in general. It’s becoming an everyday part of life. These women were probably having good conversation, Veronica excited to see her kids and Jillian thinking about the kids and Easter…Then, in the blink of an eye, everything changed. So sad.

 

[kccorona]

The OSBI confirmed to KSN Friday night that authorities are searching a large area in Texas County, Oklahoma, but did not give specifics.

I think (could be wrong) this is the first I recall the authorities confirming they’re actually “searching”, in reference to a specific area, in contrast to their previous more general statements that they’re looking for the women.

Although LE has said SO little, and spoken so infrequently, that perhaps I’m thinking too much about this… at this point, we’re starving for any official news, so this crumb of info from LE feels like much bigger investigative insight than it probably is.

 

[Trino]

An FBI agent working the case gave opinions? Or just an FBI agent? Because those are two very different things.

I haven’t seen a case where the FBI gives out more information than necessary.

Working the case. I'm from Minnesota. That was about 35 years ago. Things change. He has moved, probably retired.

 

[Cassady]

We see this sort of thing in Texas and Florida quite a bit; other states where they don’t play.

It just seems that a trigger man invariably flips for a life sentence, which ensures they get the solicitor.

That, or someone even less involved than that flips.

This is an area where a handful or less of large landowners run the show. They decide who is sheriff and on the county commission, etc....IMO

There may be a different dynamic at play in this case. LE may offer someone life to flip, but then the taker of the deal may worry something terrible could happen to a loved once they are in prison. It is similar in gang/dto cases. The fear is real and often impacts settlement...IMO.

Right now LE probably needs someone to talk so as to get SW's for certain properties....IMO

 

[otto]

This is an area where a handful or less of large landowners run the show. They decide who is sheriff and on the county commission, etc....IMO

There may be a different dynamic at play in this case. LE may offer someone life to flip, but then the taker of the deal may worry something terrible could happen to a loved once they are in prison. It is similar in gang/dto cases. The fear is real and often impacts settlement...IMO.

Right now LE probably needs someone to talk so as to get SW's for certain properties....IMO

I agree with earlier comments that this criminal disappearance is higher profile in the media because Jilian Kelley is the wife of a religious leader in Veronica's city of Hugoton. If it was only Veronica, people might view it as a domestic issue - especially if true that the region is made up of large landowners with similar values.

There is enough history of allegations against Veronica that she lost custody and was restricted to supervised visitation. If she disappeared, with those allegations on record, large landowners may have ignored her disappearance - with or without blood or shattered window.

This investigation is for Jilian Kelley, mother of four young children and wife of a religious leader in Hugoton. I would expect that those large landowners would be straight up when it comes to murdering a mother of four because the kidnapper couldn't figure out how to get Veronica alone.

If large landowners know something about a small landowner who was involved in the murder of a young mother, wouldn't they speak up? The only reason they might not speak up is that the kidnapper is one of the large landowners. The alternative is that those large landowners dismiss the murder of the wife of a community leader - and what does that say about their values?

The kidnapper wanted one person, and organized it when another, unrelated person was there - so both were intentionally taken. That should get the attention of everyone, because anyone could easily be the next accidental victim.

 

[NDreu]

APR 12, 2024

Missing Kansas moms were shot, blood found near car: NewsNation

NewsNation, which is owned by KSN’s parent company Nexstar, has reported Veronica Butler and Jilian Kelley were shot, and blood was found near the car they were last seen in.

www.ksn.com

• The OSBI confirmed to KSN Friday night that authorities are searching a large area in Texas County, Oklahoma, but did not give specifics.
• NewsNation is also reporting that 10 days before the moms went missing, Butler filed a court petition for full custody of her children. KSN requested that court document, but it is now sealed.
• The revised order sealing and restricting the case says the document was sealed after Butler and Kelley went missing and that it was to “protect the integrity of a criminal investigation and to protect minor children.”
• KSN also asked who requested to have the court filing sealed, and was told that information is also sealed.

Sadly, NN does not appear to have public LE corroboration for their claim that the two women were shot and the NN article also does not detail its sourcing for the shooting claim either that I can see.

Note also that NN (NewsNation) is owned by NBC Affiliate KSN’s parent company Nexstar and NBC WKSN is repeating the claims of NN regarding the shooting.

Color me confused.....not sure what to believe here as on the surface the claims have not been corroborated by OSBI and so I think I will wait for OSBI statement.

OSBI hasn't spoken publicly in any detail about the location where the blue KIA was found or even identified the location as either a crime scene or as a dumping location.

MOO

 

[otto]

Sadly, NN does not appear to have public LE corroboration for their claim that the two women were shot and the NN article also does not detail its sourcing for the shooting claim either that I can see. Note also that NN (NewsNation) is owned by NBC Affiliate KSN’s parent company Nexstar and NBC WKSN is repeating the claims of NN regarding the shooting.

Color me confused.....not sure what to believe here as on the surface the claims are uncorroborated by OSBI but until there is clarity on the issue, I think I will wait for OSBI statement.

OSBI hasn't spoken publicly in any detail about the location where the blue KIA was found or even identified the location as either a crime scene or as a dumping location.

MOO

They might be picking up on local gossip with "sources say". It was reported early by someone local that there was blood outside the car, but then dismissed as rumour. A window was shattered. That was reported by crimeonline with Nancy Grace. Given the direction of the car (pointing South) the driver's side window not visible from Hwy 95.

Does a window shatter when shot?

Are people jumping to conclusions that a gun was used to shatter a window? It was my first thought, but there are other possibilities - mentioned upthread. Shell casings in or near the car and blood evidence (spatter?) would point to gunshot. We wait for a statement from investigators.

I think the plan was to get Veronica and Jilian out of there by any means necessary as fast as possible. Something happened to them between 9:40 a.m. (left Hugoton at 9 a.m.) and 10:30 a.m. (when police arrived). Jilian's husband arrived at 10:45 a.m. (15 minutes after police). It's a 45 minute drive. That means he knew that something was wrong at 10 a.m.

The problem with this kidnapping of Veronica is that it was planned for a scheduled time in Veronica's life per court documents. If someone wanted to harm her, why did they chose a time where she was not alone? Why plan to take a second person at the same time as achieving the goal of kidnapping Veronica?

Was it an attempt to throw off the scent of investigators?

 

[NDreu]

I agree with earlier comments that this criminal disappearance is higher profile in the media because Jilian Kelley is the wife of a religious leader in Veronica's city of Hugoton. If it was only Veronica, people might view it as a domestic issue - especially if true that the region is made up of large landowners with similar values.

There is enough history of allegations against Veronica that she lost custody and was restricted to supervised visitation. If she disappeared, with those allegations on record, large landowners may have ignored her disappearance - with or without blood or shattered window.

This investigation is for Jilian Kelley, mother of four young children and wife of a religious leader in Hugoton. I would expect that those large landowners would be straight up when it comes to murdering a mother of four because the kidnapper couldn't figure out how to get Veronica alone.

If large landowners know something about a small landowner who was involved in the murder of a young mother, wouldn't they speak up? The only reason they might not speak up is that the kidnapper is one of the large landowners. The alternative is that those large landowners dismiss the murder of the wife of a community leader - and what does that say about their values?

The kidnapper wanted one person, and organized it when another, unrelated person was there - so both were intentionally taken. That should get the attention of everyone, because anyone could easily be the next accidental victim.

All excellent questions about the local landowner class in OK imo.

Perhaps “disappearing” the innocent is simply how they roll in their pursuit of “local justice”? Seems more like the stories out of Mexico imo than rural America but perhaps times and methods have changed?

We shall see as they no doubt won’t speak about it but imo their collective current silence speaks quite loudly as to where they stand on the matter so far imo.

Disappointing imo.

MOO

 

[BenjaminJAndersonAlly]

I agree with earlier comments that this criminal disappearance is higher profile in the media because Jilian Kelley is the wife of a religious leader in Veronica's city of Hugoton. If it was only Veronica, people might view it as a domestic issue - especially if true that the region is made up of large landowners with similar values.

There is enough history of allegations against Veronica that she lost custody and was restricted to supervised visitation. If she disappeared, with those allegations on record, large landowners may have ignored her disappearance - with or without blood or shattered window.

This investigation is for Jilian Kelley, mother of four young children and wife of a religious leader in Hugoton. I would expect that those large landowners would be straight up when it comes to murdering a mother of four because the kidnapper couldn't figure out how to get Veronica alone.

If large landowners know something about a small landowner who was involved in the murder of a young mother, wouldn't they speak up? The only reason they might not speak up is that the kidnapper is one of the large landowners. The alternative is that those large landowners dismiss the murder of the wife of a community leader - and what does that say about their values?

The kidnapper wanted one person, and organized it when another, unrelated person was there - so both were intentionally taken. That should get the attention of everyone, because anyone could easily be the next accidental victim.

What if the perp, knowing about all of V’s troubles (custody dispute & all), felt those issues would be obvious enough to LE (& members of the local community, amateur sleuths, etc.) to serve as a welcome distraction/likely lead the masses to quickly jump to the conclusion that V was the primary target & J a victim of circumstance?

Is it possible, in a surprising twist, Jillian may turn out to have been the one the assailant was primarily after/true target?

I haven’t any evidence to this effect nor any reason to necessarily believe this to be the case in this particular instance. (Edited post to add all ideas/MOO.)

However, I felt I would be remiss not to at least present the idea as a possibility since there have been multiple cases in which we have seen the wife of a pastor murdered. Remember these ladies? See below:

Who was Kenneth Eugene Smith's victim Elizabeth Sennett?

Kenneth Eugene Smith will be the first person in the world to be executed using nitrogen gas , for his 1988 murder of Elizabeth Sennett. But who was the victim? And why did Smith kill her?

www.dailymail.co.uk

https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/houston-texas/article/houston-pastor-gets-life-in-murder-of-his-wife-2195679.php

Man charged with murdering 'happy' newlywed nurse and her pastor husband who married a week ago

"She has never been as happy as she was now." A nurse and her pastor husband were found slain a mere week after they got married.

lawandcrime.com

Indianapolis pastor 'baffled' by pregnant wife's slaying

The pastor's wife was shot inside their home last week; she died two days later.

www.usatoday.com

Church associate arrested in shooting death of pastor's wife, councilwoman

Nearly four months after Eunice Dwumfour, a pastor s wife and Republican New Jersey councilwoman was gunned down in her car just outside her townhome in Sayreville, authorities announced that they

www.christianpost.com

Investigation expands in murder of Raleigh pastor's wife | ABC11 Raleigh-Durham | abc11.com

 

[otto]

What if the perp, knowing about all of V’s troubles (custody dispute & all), felt those issues would be obvious enough to LE (& members of the local community, amateur sleuths, etc.) to serve as a welcome distraction/likely lead the masses to quickly jump to the conclusion that V was the primary target & J a victim of circumstance?

Is it possible, in a surprising twist, Jillian may turn out to have been the one the assailant was primarily after/true target?

I haven’t any evidence to this effect nor any reason to necessarily believe this to be the case in this particular instance. (Edited post to add all ideas/MOO.)

However, I felt I would be remiss not to at least present the idea as a possibility since there have been multiple cases in which we have seen the wife of a pastor murdered. Remember these ladies? See below:

Who was Kenneth Eugene Smith's victim Elizabeth Sennett?

Kenneth Eugene Smith will be the first person in the world to be executed using nitrogen gas , for his 1988 murder of Elizabeth Sennett. But who was the victim? And why did Smith kill her?

www.dailymail.co.uk

https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/houston-texas/article/houston-pastor-gets-life-in-murder-of-his-wife-2195679.php

Man charged with murdering 'happy' newlywed nurse and her pastor husband who married a week ago

"She has never been as happy as she was now." A nurse and her pastor husband were found slain a mere week after they got married.

lawandcrime.com

Indianapolis pastor 'baffled' by pregnant wife's slaying

The pastor's wife was shot inside their home last week; she died two days later.

www.usatoday.com

Church associate arrested in shooting death of pastor's wife, councilwoman

Nearly four months after Eunice Dwumfour, a pastor s wife and Republican New Jersey councilwoman was gunned down in her car just outside her townhome in Sayreville, authorities announced that they

www.christianpost.com

Did the regular custody-supervisor cancel March 30 weeks in advance, or was it during the week before Veronica was kidnapped.

I'm curious about what might be one of the first steps in the plan - if there was a plan.

If it was the pastor, did he have a week or a month to organize the kidnapping of his wife and an unfortunate woman who needed supervision with her children?

 

[otto]

The pastor must have been apprehensive about his wife supervising Veronica's birthday visit. He was ready to go as soon as something didn't sound right at around 9:45 a.m. to 10 a.m., when he would have left Hugoton with a friend after arranging child care to arrive 45 minutes later at Veronica's car. He was 15 minutes behind the police, but he may have been heading to the abandoned Four Corners building hand-over location when he saw the police.

I suppose the family saw for themselves right away whether there was hope.

 

[Marie A]

IMHO
I think there is no doubt that VB was the primary target and JK was the collateral damage here.
This murder took place on the home turf of the murderer and was fully pre-meditated and pre-planned in an area that the criminals knew well.

One question I have- was the shooter/ killer related by blood to the “hiring party” or did the “hiring party” employ someone non-related to carry this out?

A second question - did the shooter have kitty litter with him/her and use it to cover blood at the scene or did someone come back to the scene with the kitty litter? Or did VB own a cat and have a bag in her car?

I would guess that the kitty litter wasn’t necessarily part of the original plan but a bag was on hand in the killer’s vehicle or VB’s vehicle and they decided to cover up some blood puddles with it?

 

[Gae]

Sadly, NN does not appear to have public LE corroboration for their claim that the two women were shot and the NN article also does not detail its sourcing for the shooting claim either that I can see.

Note also that NN (NewsNation) is owned by NBC Affiliate KSN’s parent company Nexstar and NBC WKSN is repeating the claims of NN regarding the shooting.

Color me confused.....not sure what to believe here as on the surface the claims have not been corroborated by OSBI and so I think I will wait for OSBI statement.

OSBI hasn't spoken publicly in any detail about the location where the blue KIA was found or even identified the location as either a crime scene or as a dumping location.

MOO

In total agreement with you on this.
It would be interesting to know if NN's unnamed source is the same unnamed source the YouTube sleuths use. Since most residents are supposed to be too scared to talk - even off camera - it makes me wonder if both NN and the YouTube sleuths are using the same "unnamed source."
Anyway - I'm still waiting on some sort of verification from LE - not just "sources say."

 

[nhmemorymaker]

We see this sort of thing in Texas and Florida quite a bit; other states where they don’t play.

It just seems that a trigger man invariably flips for a life sentence, which ensures they get the solicitor.

That, or someone even less involved than that flips.

Definitely in Florida as of late.

Strange, we come to "empathize" with the shooter............ as long as we can get the mastermind of the shooting.

 

[Msl1966]

In a recent NN interview, a private investigator did reference the grandfather and some of his charges of drugs and strangulation, which are in public record. Although I don't love NN, it seems to be considered MSM here and I believe this news clip would open the door to discussing the grandfather's criminal history.

M

What if the perp, knowing about all of V’s troubles (custody dispute & all), felt those issues would be obvious enough to LE (& members of the local community, amateur sleuths, etc.) to serve as a welcome distraction/likely lead the masses to quickly jump to the conclusion that V was the primary target & J a victim of circumstance?

Is it possible, in a surprising twist, Jillian may turn out to have been the one the assailant was primarily after/true target?

I haven’t any evidence to this effect nor any reason to necessarily believe this to be the case in this particular instance. (Edited post to add all ideas/MOO.)

However, I felt I would be remiss not to at least present the idea as a possibility since there have been multiple cases in which we have seen the wife of a pastor murdered. Remember these ladies? See below:

Who was Kenneth Eugene Smith's victim Elizabeth Sennett?

Kenneth Eugene Smith will be the first person in the world to be executed using nitrogen gas , for his 1988 murder of Elizabeth Sennett. But who was the victim? And why did Smith kill her?

www.dailymail.co.uk

https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/houston-texas/article/houston-pastor-gets-life-in-murder-of-his-wife-2195679.php

Man charged with murdering 'happy' newlywed nurse and her pastor husband who married a week ago

"She has never been as happy as she was now." A nurse and her pastor husband were found slain a mere week after they got married.

lawandcrime.com

Indianapolis pastor 'baffled' by pregnant wife's slaying

The pastor's wife was shot inside their home last week; she died two days later.

www.usatoday.com

Church associate arrested in shooting death of pastor's wife, councilwoman

Nearly four months after Eunice Dwumfour, a pastor s wife and Republican New Jersey councilwoman was gunned down in her car just outside her townhome in Sayreville, authorities announced that they

www.christianpost.com

Investigation expands in murder of Raleigh pastor's wife | ABC11 Raleigh-Durham | abc11.com

I’ve felt this all along.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I imagine even the dumbest criminals must have realized they'd have to work fast considering they were going to pull this stunt out in broad daylight. That may have been what led to shooting them in the car instead of abducting them alive and taking them somewhere else to finish them off. The perp(s) may have imagined two women all by their lonesome might have done what they were told when the bad guy showed up and whipped out a gun, but then they refused to comply or tried to fight back, or locked themselves in the car and tried to get away, or tried to call 911/someone else or whatever Mr. Perp didn't plan for and he panicked and just started shooting so the whole thing didn't go completely sideways.

For me, I still think they were evil/smart.... though now we are suspecting things went wrong.
Maybe thinking they were evil/smart was just because of the total silence.

However, I still think the major state of affairs for all of us out here is that they did NOT expect the massive following of the case.
I still credit the early headlines of "pasters wife" that made this go wild...