Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #5 *Arrests*

[Artis]

Not sure about that one…… but I recall an episode of The First 48, when detective Michael Zenoni asked the girlfriend of a double murder suspect, wasn’t the next question you asked your boyfriend who had sent you to retrieve phones from the two slain victims - ‘I mean c-mon C…… what the f—k’? It elicited a convincing response from her, and the look on her face revealed all IMO.

Maybe a close third or so. MOO

What was her response?

 

[Odeto BJ]

I dont think this is fair to the Sheriff as it seems to imply: "Sheriff failed to use his crystal ball."

Another post above reflected on an intuition that the Sheriff of Texas County was not a fan of the Sheriff of Cimarron County; following a media interview by Sheriff Boley...

I did notice, during the press conference where representatives from the OSBI and FBI as well as Sheriff Boley spoke to express appreciation for the help and cooperation of a whole list of LE Agencies, including Sheriff Offices in Texas and Kansas: Notable by their exclusion from that list was the Sheriff of Cimarron county. THEY DID NOT THANK HIM and yet (3) of the suspects were arrested in Cimarron county by that 20-vehicle entourage. Seems odd. MOO
Would all those agencies have organized that effort and not enlisted the local LE? And are we then to conclude that the Cimarron Sheriff's office was not involved in apprehending these suspects?

Considering the distances and the low population density and the prevalence of gravel roads, one would think that such a parade would be highly noticeable by the locals. How long would it take for the County Sheriff's office to be advised of the presence of camouflaged personnel carriers?

This observer believes that the Cimarron Sheriff's office would have been involved long before the arrests. The state and federal agencies would have been interviewing a considerable segment of his constituency, including anybody that they could establish was even familiar with the membership in God's Misfits.

Notable also: the abductions took place in Texas county; the evidence of violence and foul play was in Texas county; the site of the planned exchange was in Texas county; the judge from Cimarron County that was involved with the later Custody Hearings endorsed that site....And the Sheriff of Cimarron county espoused that security at the exchanges was not required. If the exchange was to take place in Texas county, and should the judge have ordered security at the exchange to be provided, would the Cimarron county Sheriff been tasked with providing security? Seems odd. MOO

The identified path for (2) of the phones, was from the area of the KIA, to the area of the Cullum farm, then to the Beasley property. They had to drive PAST the Beasley property to get to the Cullum site; and were there for something like 11 minutes. This could have been for dumping some of the weapons or tools used in the attack, change clothes or something similar. Both the Cullum and Beasley properties are in Cimarron county; and given LE had the cell phone data prior to the arrests, and knew that at least one additional crime scene was in Cimarron county, one would think the Cimarron sheriff would be portion of the arrest team. Yet the other participants did not acknowledge that...Again, MOO.

Does create opportunities for speculation, though.

 

[CuriousCricket]

Nancy Grace's April 16 publication: "BODIES FOUND, POOLS OF BLOOD DISCOVERED, AS MOMS MISS BIRTHDAY PARTY" had something I'd not heard before.​

According to one of the guests, Dr. William Morrone, Medical Examiner etc., the bodies of VB and JK were not decomposed as much as they should have been if they were placed in the ground the night they were killed.

Now, from the info from the burner phones, I personally wonder about the accuracy of Dr. Morrone's assessment and if he has factored in the chilly nights and especially the burial at 10 feet.

Has anyone else seen this?

 

[Artis]

This article says that CoraT and ColeT returned to their home around 12 noon. The victims' phones stopped pinging around 9:45 a.m. (IIRC) and the burner phones stopped pinging around 10:15 a.m. at the pasture area near the dam, if I am understanding this article correctly. The article says that TA picked up her children around noon after they had stayed overnight with friends. So it sounds like all the defendants were together and took part in whatever happened at the burial site for quite a long time (minus travel time there and back).

Conversely, in just 2 hours and 15 minutes these psychos managed to ambush, murder and bury two women and then went about their days by noon.

 

[*LD*]

Did the Birthday Party happen?

 

[charmingbetsy]

Nancy Grace's April 16 publication: "BODIES FOUND, POOLS OF BLOOD DISCOVERED, AS MOMS MISS BIRTHDAY PARTY" had something I'd not heard before.​

According to one of the guests, Dr. William Morrone, Medical Examiner etc., the bodies of VB and JK were not decomposed as much as they should have been if they were placed in the ground the night they were killed.

Now, from the info from the burner phones, I personally wonder about the accuracy of Dr. Morrone's assessment and if he has factored in the chilly nights and especially the burial at 10 feet.

Has anyone else seen this?

Not to be morbid, but I wonder if cement was poured on to of them and if that would slow decomp. The PCA specifically states TC buried concrete in the hole before March 30. It does not state what the hole was filled with, just that it was filled. I admit I don't know why people would bury concrete to begin with, but it made me wonder if he also placed old concrete or fresh cement on top of the bodies before covering with dirt.

 

[windrower]

Yes, the white trailer is enclosed. Here is a photo of it being towed, from video at the link below.

View attachment 498441

‘God’s Misfits’ group at center of Kansas missing moms case

The women, last seen March 30, were involved in a contentious custody dispute.

www.newsnationnow.com

BBM

I haven't seen any and still would like know who drove what to the scene. We only that the Twomblys took a flatbed and a pick up and someone brought that trailer out there. What and who was pulling the trailer?

Okay. I’ll jump into the flatbed/pickup/trailer thing again.

Twomblys took TWO PICKUPS to the abduction site, according to CW, Cora’s daughter’s testimony.

One pickup likely looked like one of those in the photo above, and one was a pickup with a flatbed backend as part of the pickup. Not a normal pickup bed like the two pickups in the photo above.

Neither pickup would have been able to carry VB’s car.

Either pickup could have pulled the stock trailer shown, as long as the pickup was heavy duty enough to safely pull the weight of the trailer (and whatever livestock they hauled with the stock trailer).

There are light duty pickups, heavy duty pickups, half tons, one tons, regular four wheels on two axles, duallys which have four wheels on the back axle, etc.

Since CW was living in a ranching or farming community, I’m sure she knows the difference between a pickup, a flatbed pickup (still a pickup, just has a flatbed, hence the designation), and a flatbed truck (like tow trucks with a long flatbed and winch with which to pull vehicles onto the flatbed).

The terminology for ranching and farming vehicles seems to be confusing, and I totally understand that.

You cannot drive a vehicle up on a pickup flatbed for several reasons. Pickup flatbeds are not designed for that (the flatbeds are on a normal length pickup chassis, so they are short), nor are most pickups themselves. And regular length loading ramps would not be long enough to drive a car up onto the height of a pickup flatbed—you’d be driving almost straight up. Not feasible.

That is just not going to happen.

If the picture above is the actual trailer LE confiscated, it is a gooseneck stock trailer, meaning it is pulled by attaching it to a ball welded into the bed of a pickup or truck and is not pulled by a bumper hitch.

So not just any pickup can haul a gooseneck trailer—hitch-wise or weight-wise.

I don’t believe the abduction crew intended to move the car. VB and JK would just come up missing from there, disappeared.

And if they thought about moving the car after things went sideways, that was a complication, and I do believe they ran out of time. It wasn’t going to be an easy thing to do.

No, the car would not be hauled in the stock trailer. It’s just not done. Maybe they might have tried, but they probably didn’t have ramps, as animals load by stepping up into or jumping up into the trailer.

Hope this helps. Really so many are here in support of VB’s and JK’s families.

 

[Artis]

This map is pretty accurate. It gives a good indication of the close proximity of those involved. This wasn’t made by me, but was shared on fb or X, can’t remember.
MOO

It looks like their car was blocked at HWY 95 @ N 620 Road. I tried to get a closer map of that but couldn't find one.

 

[legomonster]

Did the Birthday Party happen?were supposed to pick up the children in Texas County and return to Hugoton for the birthday party, which was scheduled for Saturday morning but they did not arrive.

Veronica and Jilian were supposed to pick up Veronica's children in Texas County and return to Hugoton for the birthday party, which was scheduled for Saturday morning but they never did arrive. Veronica's family started looking for her, found her vehicle abandoned just west of Highway 95 and Road L and contacted law enforcement at 12:09 p.m. on March 30.

 

[Artis]

Within 2 minutes VBs and JKs cellphones are no longer pinging. This attack was very quick, unfortunately it appears victims were unable to call 911. At first, after they were detoured off the highway it must’ve taken a few moments to figure out what was happening before realizing they were facing deadly danger. Perhaps they tried calling 911 and that’s when the side window got broken with the hammer, stun guns started flaring, one or both victims made a desperate attempt to flee, cellphones were dropped and grabbed by perps and smashed, hammer breaks.

Truth be known, I’d sooner be shot dead with a gun than incapacitated with the electric shock of a stun gun. The level of cruelty inflicted had to be absolutely horrendous and we don’t yet know what the autopsy revealed including COD. I can’t begin to imagine how diabolical not just one, nor two, but FOUR people must be to plot an attack on two woman such as this. Then , later CT casually tells her daughter it didn’t quite go as planned?!! She’s just as evil if not more than TA, she had no personal stake in the motive.

JMO

FIVE people, according to CW but PG is being disappeared from this whole thing. This is not okay.

 

[SteveP]

Nancy Grace's April 16 publication: "BODIES FOUND, POOLS OF BLOOD DISCOVERED, AS MOMS MISS BIRTHDAY PARTY" had something I'd not heard before.​

According to one of the guests, Dr. William Morrone, Medical Examiner etc., the bodies of VB and JK were not decomposed as much as they should have been if they were placed in the ground the night they were killed.

Now, from the info from the burner phones, I personally wonder about the accuracy of Dr. Morrone's assessment and if he has factored in the chilly nights and especially the burial at 10 feet.

Has anyone else seen this?

I can only take Nancy Grace in very small doses, so listened to only a brief portion of the podcast, but I would not put a lot of stock in the opinion of a medical examiner, located in Michigan, that was nowhere near the bodies, and probably only heard the same reports that the rest of us heard. At the time of this podcast, they were still talking that investigators believed the women had been shot (they were not), and the medical examiner was discussing what he considered to be normal rate of decomposition, seemingly based on a body just lying out in the elements, not bodies buried 10 feet deep, and covered up. Not to mention, he had no way of knowing the rate of decomposition. I highly doubt the local ME sent photos, asking his opinion. I take everything I hear on any NG podcast with a grain of salt, and sometimes, the entire shaker. JMO

BODIES FOUND, POOLS OF BLOOD DISCOVERED, AS MOMS MISS BIRTHDAY PARTY | Crime Stories with Nancy Grace | Podplay

Fifteen days after Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelley are reported missing, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation announce the recovery of two bodies. The identity of the remains has not been ...

www.podplay.com

 

[Cool Cats]

Okay. I’ll jump into the flatbed/pickup/trailer thing again.

Twomblys took TWO PICKUPS to the abduction site, according to CW, Cora’s daughter’s testimony.

One pickup likely looked like one of those in the photo above, and one was a pickup with a flatbed backend as part of the pickup. Not a normal pickup bed like the two pickups in the photo above.

Neither pickup would have been able to carry VB’s car.

Either pickup could have pulled the stock trailer shown, as long as the pickup was heavy duty enough to safely pull the weight of the trailer (and whatever livestock they hauled with the stock trailer).

There are light duty pickups, heavy duty pickups, half tons, one tons, regular four wheels on two axles, duallys which have four wheels on the back axle, etc.

Since CW was living in a ranching or farming community, I’m sure she knows the difference between a pickup, a flatbed pickup (still a pickup, just has a flatbed, hence the designation), and a flatbed truck (like tow trucks with a long flatbed and winch with which to pull vehicles onto the flatbed).

The terminology for ranching and farming vehicles seems to be confusing, and I totally understand that.

You cannot drive a vehicle up on a pickup flatbed for several reasons. Pickup flatbeds are not designed for that (the flatbeds are on a normal length pickup chassis, so they are short), nor are most pickups themselves. And regular length loading ramps would not be long enough to drive a car up onto the height of a pickup flatbed—you’d be driving almost straight up. Not feasible.

That is just not going to happen.

If the picture above is the actual trailer LE confiscated, it is a gooseneck stock trailer, meaning it is pulled by attaching it to a ball welded into the bed of a pickup or truck and is not pulled by a bumper hitch.

So not just any pickup can haul a gooseneck trailer—hitch-wise or weight-wise.

I don’t believe the abduction crew intended to move the car. VB and JK would just come up missing from there, disappeared.

And if they thought about moving the car after things went sideways, that was a complication, and I do believe they ran out of time. It wasn’t going to be an easy thing to do.

No, the car would not be hauled in the stock trailer. It’s just not done. Maybe they might have tried, but they probably didn’t have ramps, as animals load by stepping up into or jumping up into the trailer.

Hope this helps. Really so many are here in support of VB’s and JK’s families.

I'm trying to figure out the vehicle discussion.

I do not understand why anyone would think the 4 stooges would try to upload the victims' car onto a flatbed truck then drive it away?

Didn't they just simply leave the car? Obviously there is no need to tow a working car.

 

[SteveP]

FIVE people, according to CW but PG is being disappeared from this whole thing. This is not okay.

Just because someone is disappeared from us, does not mean that they are disappeared from LE radar, despite any public comments that may be contrary to that. JMO

 

[Cedars]

I can only take Nancy Grace in very small doses, so listened to only a brief portion of the podcast, but I would not put a lot of stock in the opinion of a medical examiner, located in Michigan, that was nowhere near the bodies, and probably only heard the same reports that the rest of us heard. At the time of this podcast, they were still talking that investigators believed the women had been shot (they were not), and the medical examiner was discussing what he considered to be normal rate of decomposition, seemingly based on just lying out in the elements, not bodies buried 10 feet deep, and covered up. I take everything I hear on any NG podcast with a grain of salt, and sometimes, the entire shaker. JMO

BODIES FOUND, POOLS OF BLOOD DISCOVERED, AS MOMS MISS BIRTHDAY PARTY | Crime Stories with Nancy Grace | Podplay

Fifteen days after Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelley are reported missing, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation announce the recovery of two bodies. The identity of the remains has not been ...

www.podplay.com

I agree, plus what kind of scientist would even appear on that show? Not someone who cares about the professional opinion of their colleagues...JMO

 

[KooshBall]

Nancy Grace's April 16 publication: "BODIES FOUND, POOLS OF BLOOD DISCOVERED, AS MOMS MISS BIRTHDAY PARTY" had something I'd not heard before.​

According to one of the guests, Dr. William Morrone, Medical Examiner etc., the bodies of VB and JK were not decomposed as much as they should have been if they were placed in the ground the night they were killed.

Now, from the info from the burner phones, I personally wonder about the accuracy of Dr. Morrone's assessment and if he has factored in the chilly nights and especially the burial at 10 feet.

Has anyone else seen this?

How does that guest know the details about the bodies?

 

[Cedars]

Did the Birthday Party happen?

No, and I think that's very sad. Poor little girl, all ready for her birthday party, and instead this. Every birthday, for the rest of her life, will remind her of this tragic event.

JMO

 

[Artis]

I dont think this is fair to the Sheriff as it seems to imply: "Sheriff failed to use his crystal ball."

I live in a mega city where there are probably hundreds of custody exchanges being made every week between ex spouses that hove "potential for volatility".

One of those people making such an exchange is a family friend (no police presence at all). It is realistic for police to maintain a presence at all these custody exchanges?

If not, how do the police foresee which ex spouse is simply an argumentative jerk that pursues his / her legal interests (plenty of those) and which ones are thinking dangerous thoughts?

Fair assessment. While people may not want to hear it, LE has no obligation to actually protect anyone and that's even been ruled to be so by the SCOTUS. They aren't body guards (except for criminals being moved around). As everyone knows, domestic disputes are the worst and the last thing LE wants to be involved in. I'm not making excuses for LE, either, because I'm neutral on them. If one person is entitled to personal protection, then all people are and that's impossible.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

I agree, plus what kind of scientist would even appear on that show? Not someone who cares about the professional opinion of their colleagues...JMO

I don’t know, I guess it is good to have as many perspectives and investigators, and opinions, whether journalist, publishing, or news media and experts shining light wherever they can on this case IMO.

By comparison, I am still shaking my head at that judge I believe it was that appeared on NN IIRC? MOO

 

[SteveP]

How does that guest know the details about the bodies?

He almost certainly...doesn't. JMO

 

[Cryptic]

Custody with contentious atmosphere is enough reason.

In a perfect world. clearly yes. In the real world, however, it may take more.

I deeply suspect that there are hundreds of custody exchanges occurring in "contentious atmospheres" in my urban mega city this weekend.

The police simply do not have enough resources to be at every exchange site simply because the divorce and resulting custody was contentious.

Rather, as police resources are limited, they may need additional aggravating circumstances: Contentious divorce and.... social media threats, violent arrest history, displayed weapon at last exchange etc.