GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #3

[tiredblondy]

I must not have communicated well, so I'll try to explain.

What I meant when I said that women (myself included) should stop being so nice is simply the fact that there are so many times where our boundaries are crossed, where people around us, particularly men, make us uncomfortable by something they are doing, or want to do, or say, or they try to convince us to do something that crosses a line, goes against our values, inconveniences us, etc. The reason why I think this is a problem is because so many women have this "you have to be nice" idea taught from a very early age. We are taught that we need to be "nice", that the opposite of nice is a "b*tch", and that, foremost, we must put others' perceptions of us and our behaviors ahead of our own feelings/wants/needs/boundaries.

That worries me, a lot. It worries me as the mother of a young daughter. And I'll tell you, I see a heck of a lot of parents correcting their daughters and telling them to "be nice", or, my favorite, "nobody will like you if you do things like that"... and almost 99% of the time, it is over something totally minor, like telling a friend that you don't want to play a game of their suggestion, etc. I used to hear that daily on the playground after school... and that is what I was talking about. It disempowers our daughters and teaches them that what other people think about them is more important than what they feel, and that when taking an action they should consider what other people's perceptions are of them first, rather than whether or not they are comfortable with what someone is doing/saying to them.

MOO/JMO/IMO, etc.

This is what I was referring my previous post to. .

 

[msthinksalot]

What the heck are you saying? way out there.......

It was from an O/T convo a few pages back...

 

[dr dona]

Guys--it is the perp giving us this story about asking Whitney for a ride and she voluntarily gave him one....and Oh by the way He didn't pull the gun till 5 min later. Why would he tell the whole truth---by saying she let him in her car it --at least in his mind---decreases his culpability....You know...it was her fault. BS--I'd be willing to bet that gun was out from the instant he approached her car..not that it matters at all because this horror still happened!!!!!
I just think guy will try to place blame anywhere else he can.....I just don't buy it!!!
Now that I have vented----this young sweet lady has affected me more than anyone since Natalie H----I have literally cried all weekend......I just want her husband and family to know what a profound effect she has had---her smile just lights up everyone and everything around her. I would have loved to know her. God bless you all!!!

 

[tiredblondy]

I must not have communicated well, so I'll try to explain.

What I meant when I said that women (myself included) should stop being so nice is simply the fact that there are so many times where our boundaries are crossed, where people around us, particularly men, make us uncomfortable by something they are doing, or want to do, or say, or they try to convince us to do something that crosses a line, goes against our values, inconveniences us, etc. The reason why I think this is a problem is because so many women have this "you have to be nice" idea taught from a very early age. We are taught that we need to be "nice", that the opposite of nice is a "b*tch", and that, foremost, we must put others' perceptions of us and our behaviors ahead of our own feelings/wants/needs/boundaries.

That worries me, a lot. It worries me as the mother of a young daughter. And I'll tell you, I see a heck of a lot of parents correcting their daughters and telling them to "be nice", or, my favorite, "nobody will like you if you do things like that"... and almost 99% of the time, it is over something totally minor, like telling a friend that you don't want to play a game of their suggestion, etc. I used to hear that daily on the playground after school... and that is what I was talking about. It disempowers our daughters and teaches them that what other people think about them is more important than what they feel, and that when taking an action they should consider what other people's perceptions are of them first, rather than whether or not they are comfortable with what someone is doing/saying to them.

MOO/JMO/IMO, etc.

Originally Posted by tiredblondy
[Just an fyi, I was taught to be polite (not nice) and because I had a very wise and protective father he encouraged me how to politely tell someone to get lost. Believe you me it's saved me a couple of times.]


For FruitTingles and Lucimhome

The top quote is what I was referring my previous post (above) to. .Not Whitney! I didn't realize I needed to quote it but the posts moved ahead too quickily I guess.:waitasec:

 

[pugglesworth]

:what:

I wonder what he was doing then? :furious:

efff...we have so many missing women around here, it seems, and so many cold cases. Scared to think he might have done this before.

 

[tiredblondy]

It was from an O/T convo a few pages back...

Thanks Msthinksalot. I love your name by the way. Mine should probably be

Msthinksnotenough. :blushing:

 

[nervous_nellie]

Maybe she was running away? Regardless, it is the typical overkill you see with these kinds of crimes of passion.

i know iv followed plenty of these but this case has just gotten to me i think because wh just seemed like the most harmless kind sweet person minding her own business not involved with anything even remotely close to winding up in this kind of situation. and also i think what bothers me the most is that holt knew this about wh...they were not strangers...he knew what a nice kind sweet harmless person she was and he chose to do this to her...this one is just sticking in my throat and i want to see this guy rot. moo, rant over, peace, out.

 

[FruitTingles]

Originally Posted by tiredblondy
[Just an fyi, I was taught to be polite (not nice) and because I had a very wise and protective father he encouraged me how to politely tell someone to get lost. Believe you me it's saved me a couple of times.]


For FruitTingles and Lucimhome

The top quote is what I was referring my previous post (above) to. .Not Whitney! I didn't realize I needed to quote it but the posts moved ahead too quickily I guess.:waitasec:

Ok. At the time I must have missed what was said for you to say the above, and I just couldn't comprehend what your post was in relation to. Hence why I was confused. Apologies.

 

[tiredblondy]

What I want to know now and don't know how we'll ever find out is...when was he missing before and where did they live then?

For some strange reason I tend to think there may be missing person somewhere unaccounted for about that time.

 

[nervous_nellie]

When JH was arrested I made a scathing remark about him. Afterward I began to feel badly about not adhering to the innocent until proven guilty rule of the law toward someone accused of committing a crime. I debated whether or not to post a follow up to my original post in order to soften it and to blame my outburst on my emotional state at the time.

After hearing his charges today and that he's admitted what he did, I'm glad I didn't waste my time defending my opinion or taking it back. Sometimes circumstances seem obvious as they unfold. What a terrible fate for Whitney. I'll never understand the depths of despicable actions some people take and how they can walk around fooling people for years. Cases like this help me clarify my belief regarding the death penalty. Why should we waste resources and energy on someone like him. There are enough good people who are down and out who can use help in ways that will make a difference in society.

What happened to Whitney is truly an example of hell playing out on earth. Victims so often seem to be the brightest lights. My personal faith is centered in Christ so I don't know about the JW religion. I'm sorry for her family and their loss of their beautiful young lady.

bbm -- great post and this is exactly how i am feeling as well!

 

[ingra1327]

BBM. And yes, to answer your question. Portland and the outlying communities are known for meth problems. They issues are HUGE here.

I also wonder if they would test him? Hmm.

I don't think they would test him because whether he used meth or not has no relevance to the charges. There hasn't been any mention of meth and/or paraphernalia found and he doesn't have any added drug charges. Also, he's been in jail since Friday night, so if he were a meth addict he'd be withdrawing. I didn't think he appeared to be a meth addict in withdrawal in his arraignment.

I could see him being a casual user, though. He was up early waiting for Whitney after all, maybe after being up all night?

JMO

 

[possumheart]

I can't help thinking that J would have appeared agitated if he was armed with bad intentions when he asked for a lift. Obviously he didn't give off those vibes. He must have been cool and casual - which is rather disturbing! Also, where would he have got those drinks from early in the morning? Is that normal? Are there 24 hour liquor stores in the USA?

 

[dodie20]

I must not have communicated well, so I'll try to explain.

What I meant when I said that women (myself included) should stop being so nice is simply the fact that there are so many times where our boundaries are crossed, where people around us, particularly men, make us uncomfortable by something they are doing, or want to do, or say, or they try to convince us to do something that crosses a line, goes against our values, inconveniences us, etc. The reason why I think this is a problem is because so many women have this "you have to be nice" idea taught from a very early age. We are taught that we need to be "nice", that the opposite of nice is a "b*tch", and that, foremost, we must put others' perceptions of us and our behaviors ahead of our own feelings/wants/needs/boundaries.

That worries me, a lot. It worries me as the mother of a young daughter. And I'll tell you, I see a heck of a lot of parents correcting their daughters and telling them to "be nice", or, my favorite, "nobody will like you if you do things like that"... and almost 99% of the time, it is over something totally minor, like telling a friend that you don't want to play a game of their suggestion, etc. I used to hear that daily on the playground after school... and that is what I was talking about. It disempowers our daughters and teaches them that what other people think about them is more important than what they feel, and that when taking an action they should consider what other people's perceptions are of them first, rather than whether or not they are comfortable with what someone is doing/saying to them.

MOO/JMO/IMO, etc.

When my oldest daughter was young, the main thing I drilled into her every day, was to 'be sweet'. I also taught her to avoid confrontation, to turn the other cheek, and to not stoop down to somebody's level. These sound like good traits, but Oh boy, was I wrong. She was bullied all through school and is still suffering the consequences. I know a lot of her issues can be traced back to her letting others run her down. They saw an easy target, and since she was 'sweet', she didn't defend herself. They treated her like she wasn't worthy, and after awhile, she started believing it herself. She's 24, and I'm raising my 10 yr old to be completely different. When the oldest gives a stranger money, for instance, it's the younger one, who reminds her that he might be bad. Really, you have a valid point. Being raised to be sweet, helpful, non confrontational, goes hand in hand with being TOO trusting. When my youngest was in 1st grade, another girl choked her for 'reading too fast'. My daughter knocked her and a table down, while defending herself, and I was ok with that. What makes me really sad about a lot of kidnap cases, is the man preys on either a child, or a very nice young lady. These victims think if they do as they're told, they will be let go...because that's what they're told, and they want to believe it. I've taught my daughters, (I hope it has sunk in), that even if somebody has a gun to their back, they are to put up a fight right there and not go willingly with anybody.

 

[ingra1327]

I can't help thinking that J would have appeared agitated if he was armed with bad intentions when he asked for a lift. Obviously he didn't give off those vibes. He must have been cool and casual - which is rather disturbing! Also, where would he have got those drinks from early in the morning? Is that normal? Are there 24 hour liquor stores in the USA?

You can't buy alcohol between 2:30 am and 7:30 am in Oregon, so maybe he had them from before?

 

[callyn]

Or his wife was suspicious and called in a tip. That's what I'm thinking. The license plate probably had his fingerprints on it.

I thought I read that Clint had told le to look at Holt.

 

[Melancholy]

I recall the previous post BBM here in regards to how JW's have certain feelings/beliefs etc about being alone with anybody especially if both people are married, so as to not create a reason to accuse of an affair etc. I believe this is what Thess is referring to.

I said that, and while I tried to word it in a way that reflected it was 'common practice' and well known that it was frowned upon, I never stated that it's a "RULE", as it's not. It's a protection, on several levels.

True enough! I personally think there may still be a memorial that is JW only but that of course is JMO

I have been to many Memorials for deceased JW's and never seen one that was "JW Only"...in fact, I don't think I have been to one that DIDN'T have non-jw attendees.

Ahhh! Thank you for that. I have been reading all weekend and must have missed that discussion. Shocker! Lol

I still don't think that "if" Whitney agreed to give this murderous tool a ride that she had any culpability. And again, that may not have been what anyone was insinuating, but I get kinda prickly about blaming victims.

I kind of got a hint of that too, and I wanted to come back and clarify that I in NO way insinuated there was some 'rule' she would have been breaking by giving him a ride and as such couldn't possibly have done so.

Thank you! I remember reading that JW took great care to avoid any appearance of impropriety in those kinds of situations. The first quoted post is the one I remember!

I see what Thess was referring to. I guess the "rules" thing threw me. And I still don't think it makes Whitney responsible for her murder. JMHO

I too took the 'rule breaking' remark as an almost 'blame the victim' feel, and even if she had went to his apartment, knocked on his door, asked if he wanted a ride into town as she left, she STILL would not have done anything to invite what was put upon her.

Personally I would be caught off guard it someone else's husband, a peer no less, asked me for a ride. I'm sure if WH had a choice she would have avoided being alone with JH. It either didn't go down how he said or he lied about the urgency of the situation when he asked for a ride and didn't give her a chance to say no.

Even my best friends's husband would probably rather walk 5 miles than ask me for a ride alone. I would certainly think its odd for someone else's husband under the age of 60 associated with my congregation my to know how things work and still ask for a ride.

Agreed!!!

 

[msthinksalot]

Thanks Msthinksalot. I love your name by the way. Mine should probably be

Msthinksnotenough. :blushing:

I was trying to think of a username, and people are always teasing me that I "think too much"... usually in the context of what movie I want to watch or what to make for dinner, etc. It seemed apt, if a bit silly.

And I'm thinking if you're on here, you're thinking a lot! I love the thinkers on this site, and how everyone gets really engaged but keeps it civil, even when we're feeling really emotional. It's awesome

 

[nervous_nellie]

I can't help thinking that J would have appeared agitated if he was armed with bad intentions when he asked for a lift. Obviously he didn't give off those vibes. He must have been cool and casual - which is rather disturbing! Also, where would he have got those drinks from early in the morning? Is that normal? Are there 24 hour liquor stores in the USA?

where im at you can buy booze at most gas stations...

 

[tiredblondy]

Ok. At the time I must have missed what was said for you to say the above, and I just couldn't comprehend what your post was in relation to. Hence why I was confused. Apologies.

It's ok. Thanks..I have several windows open following several cases here at the same time and have been known to post on the wrong case at times, once I even posted in the scanner section thinking I was on Jessica Ridgeway's thread..:blowkiss:

 

[nervous_nellie]

i am interested to hear about holts previous disappearing acts and if they coincide with any other missing or murdered people...