GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #4

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Looks can be decieving and everyone wants to be seen as a perfect couple. Especially someone who is in a religous organization that values that purity. Anything other than being perfect may have been looked down on.

I agree that we can't judge a book by its cover. Like I said earlier, I'd hate for some to judge pics of my hubby and I... because we certainly have never been a super affectionate, clingy couple.

But until I hear otherwise, I won't speculate about what went on behind closed doors. For all we know, both parties, the Holts and Heichels alike, had seemingly healthy, happy marriages.
 
http://www.oregonlive.com/gresham/index.ssf/2012/10/jonathan_holt_disappeared_with.html

In the link above, JH showed the rental house to his friend before disappearing from the Best Buy lot later the same day. Locals, is the supposed location of the rental near any of the key map locations?

I am so saddened by this story. Blessings to Whitney's family and friends who are coping with this tragedy.

I'm not local, but the rental house they viewed was in Troutdale (only location mentioned that I could find); Troutdale was mentioned on some of these maps (Troutdale Terrace Apts were where the children found her cell phone.)

It isn't clear from this report if he ever rented that property, or if he was just considering it that morning. The story mentions that the Holts were living in an apt on Northeast Roberts Ave in Gresham at the time (Aug 2011). Is that the apt complex where they and the Heichels were neighbors? (I'm guessing not, as I'd thought I'd read the Holts had only lived at their current apt for several months.) If they did move in 2012, it's possible he was already considering looking for their new apt living situation that August and was out checking out options for their next space.
 
I'm not local, but the rental house they viewed was in Troutdale (only location mentioned that I could find); Troutdale was mentioned on some of these maps (Troutdale Terrace Apts were where the children found her cell phone.)

It isn't clear from this report if he ever rented that property, or if he was just considering it that morning. The story mentions that the Holts were living in an apt on Northeast Roberts Ave in Gresham at the time (Aug 2011). Is that the apt complex where they and the Heichels were neighbors? (I'm guessing not, as I'd thought I'd read the Holts had only lived at their current apt for several months.) If they did move in 2012, it's possible he was already considering looking for their new apt living situation that August and was out checking out options for their next space.

He had just finished his training. He would hopefully have been optimistic about his future and the possibility of moving from and apartment to a house in the future.

He may also have just been trying to impress his friend. If he wis a practical joker he may also like surprises. He may have not shared the info about the house with his wife because he wanted to surprise her. But that doesn't sound like something you are cooking up as you lapse into a 12 hour breakdown.
(I have never ever heard of a 12 hour breakdown ... strange terminology).
 
Quoting myself... I feel very stupid and maybe everyone else *got* this instead of me. I kept thinking about this wondering WTF... why would his wife not know about him bringing his friend to a house they were going to rent. Then I thought, why would she deny knowing if she did?

Then of course, DUH. He brought his friend to a house that he said he was going to rent with his wife, but his wife didn't know anything about them supposedly renting that house.

I'm assuming it was an empty house.

She would have known he was lying about significant things at least back to ~August 2011.

I'm wondering if he was checking out this house to move into by himself -- since he was supposedly "thinking over everything in his life" and wanting to seemingly change some things and "re-prioritize." (During his 12 hour "mental breakdown.")
 
Looks can be decieving and everyone wants to be seen as a perfect couple. Especially someone who is in a religous organization that values that purity. Anything other than being perfect may have been looked down on.

Oh I know, and I understand what you're saying I think. All I mean is everything on her page, in her pics, in her posts, seemed very innocent. Not like "trying to prove purity" innocent, but more like "no reason to worry" innocent. IMO. Maybe just me.
 
Good grief, if anything ever happens to me or my husband, the other one would be in big trouble, at least with the public. I don't think we have even had our photo taken together since our wedding, over 18 years ago...we both hate having our pictures taken; people who know would know that, but from the outside, I am sure it would take on very sinister implications, that is, if my internet history was not enough...
 
Good grief, if anything ever happens to me or my husband, the other one would be in big trouble, at least with the public. I don't think we have even had our photo taken together since our wedding, over 18 years ago...we both hate having our pictures taken; people who know would know that, but from the outside, I am sure it would take on very sinister implications, that is, if my internet history was not enough...

I just told my husband this tonight. I don't think wwe have one single picture of the two of us together. Neither of us is photogenic. We take annual family pics and the rest are of the kids. We have an amazing relationship, I have a friend who is super cute and so is her hubby and they have tons of cute couple pics much like Whitney and Clint.
 
I'm not local, but the rental house they viewed was in Troutdale (only location mentioned that I could find); Troutdale was mentioned on some of these maps (Troutdale Terrace Apts were where the children found her cell phone.)

It isn't clear from this report if he ever rented that property, or if he was just considering it that morning. The story mentions that the Holts were living in an apt on Northeast Roberts Ave in Gresham at the time (Aug 2011). Is that the apt complex where they and the Heichels were neighbors? (I'm guessing not, as I'd thought I'd read the Holts had only lived at their current apt for several months.) If they did move in 2012, it's possible he was already considering looking for their new apt living situation that August and was out checking out options for their next space.

Northeast Roberts is in Downtown Gresham. If you look at it on Google Maps, it is a few minutes from the Best Buy on Division (Gresham Station). If you go South on Roberts and East on Powell, It would be about an 8 to 10 minute drive to the complex both parties had their apartments at. Their apartments were off of Hwy 26. So the timeline would be August 2011 in Roberts Street Apartments. I am guessing May of 2012 JH and AH moved next door to WH and CH, based on a Facebook comment date left on one of WH photos.
 
He had just finished his training. He would hopefully have been optimistic about his future and the possibility of moving from and apartment to a house in the future.

He may also have just been trying to impress his friend. If he wis a practical joker he may also like surprises. He may have not shared the info about the house with his wife because he wanted to surprise her. But that doesn't sound like something you are cooking up as you lapse into a 12 hour breakdown.
(I have never ever heard of a 12 hour breakdown ... strange terminology).

The term 'breakdown' is vague and a bit archaic. But...two things are true. First, the young, 20-something male is the most typical person for succumbing to a certain type of illness that could have these types of irrational mental lapses (ie. schizophrenia). Secondly, mental problems do most often come after compressed periods of significant change in a life. You mentioned he'd just finished up his studies; he'd also just married (2010) and set up house with his new wife, and converted to her religion. Life stress points include positive change as well as negative change--those changes alone (changing job, marital status, one's faith, and also moving) have him past the 'critical' score on the life stress charts. Not saying I know this is what happened, but I would say if he did start to slide into mental illness, it also wouldn't surprise me (and I wouldn't be quick to say he was just claiming that for an excuse to be despicable). We have two mental health professionals in the family as well as our fair share of reasons why family members got interested in that field. Firsthand experience changes your outlook on how you formerly viewed people with 'mental problems.'
 
Oh I know, and I understand what you're saying I think. All I mean is everything on her page, in her pics, in her posts, seemed very innocent. Not like "trying to prove purity" innocent, but more like "no reason to worry" innocent. IMO. Maybe just me.

Oh I don't think she's "trying" to prove innocence but probably in that religon it's expected that you have a certain image. Are they JW allowed to drink? If not and she did obviously she won't be posting that pic on FB.
 
Northeast Roberts is in Downtown Gresham. If you look at it on Google Maps, it is a few minutes from the Best Buy on Division (Gresham Station). If you go South on Roberts and East on Powell, It would be about an 8 to 10 minute drive to the complex both parties had their apartments at. Their apartments were off of Hwy 26. So the timeline would be August 2011 in Roberts Street Apartments. I am guessing May of 2012 JH and AH moved next door to WH and CH, based on a Facebook comment date left on one of WH photos.

Thanks for checking all that. So it was two different complexes.

One thing...news reports I've read have stated that they were not next-door neighbors, though living in the same complex. One article stated that they were even in separate buildings of the same complex. It's not clear to me what the final story is on that aspect.
 
Good grief, if anything ever happens to me or my husband, the other one would be in big trouble, at least with the public. I don't think we have even had our photo taken together since our wedding, over 18 years ago...we both hate having our pictures taken; people who know would know that, but from the outside, I am sure it would take on very sinister implications, that is, if my internet history was not enough...

:seeya: My internet history and google searches will sink me if my hubby ever dropped dead.
I'll be behind bars forever :jail: lol
I want to type a disclaimer and use it as a screen saver!


srsly... we have not had pictures together in forever ... Then again
we didn't meet in "facebook" iphone times either!
I have orange NIKE shoe boxes FULL of pictures... many from the instatnt cameras of yesterday!
Everything has not been all puppy dogs and rainbows here.

semi normal I'd say.

moo
 
:seeya: My internet history and google searches will sink me if my hubby ever dropped dead.
I'll be behind bars forever :jail: lol
I want to type a disclaimer and use it as a screen saver!


srsly... we have not had pictures together in forever ... Then again
we didn't meet in "facebook" iphone times either!
I have orange NIKE shoe boxes FULL of pictures... many from the instatnt cameras of yesterday!
Everything has not been all puppy dogs and rainbows here.

semi normal I'd say.

moo


To make it worse, they would need to use my driver's license photo, if I go missing...that is the most recent and it does look more like a mug shot. My husband would be up a creek anyway, as he sleeps days, works graveyard, never knows if I am even home, and certainly not what I was wearing, etc...he would come across as the guiltiest person ever.
 
To make it worse, they would need to use my driver's license photo, if I go missing...that is the most recent and it does look more like a mug shot. My husband would be up a creek anyway, as he sleeps days, works graveyard, never knows if I am even home, and certainly not what I was wearing, etc...he would come across as the guiltiest person ever.
My DL pic is OLD! LIKE 1996 OLD!!!
+/- 50# (I think I weighed 107 then)

Hey!!! I could report myself missing!
(The police wouldn't even know it was a scam)

Yeah I really don't see my son leave so I'd have no idea what he was wearing.
I did write his License plate number down in case of emergency
right after Ivy disappeared...

I also called my daughter and got her boyfriends tag and make/model of his car too.

The kids hit 20 and all of the sudden I panic...
mama just can't keep up with their schedules anymore
go figure! :blushing::twocents:
 
This is just my opinion: I don't think that JH has always been troubled. In his wedding photo's I thought he looked genuinely happy and excited not just because he was smiling but I thought it showed in his eyes as well. Someone on here on the other thread posted a picture of him with his wife and in that picture I thought he looked very troubled it just showed everyone on his face. To me he looked like a completely different person from the wedding photos. It would be interesting to know when that picture was taken, how long ago after they married. The only other picture that I've seen aside from the wedding photos are the high school picture where he looks to be a normal teenage boy. So I am wondering if troubles started with him after he got married? It was stated on here too that he got married in the Hall of his church and to do that you have to be an upstanding person. Due to the rape in the case I am betting on the fact that he struggled with *advertiser censored*. And I think most of us are aware that there are some *advertiser censored* out there that is violent towards women. Maybe he was viewing *advertiser censored* before he got married but it escalated after he married. It has been studied upon and is a fact that *advertiser censored* gives men an unrealistic view of sex. He did marry pretty young and maybe he attained this unrealistic view of sex and marriage and his marriage and sex life didn't fit that picture so he just kept turning to the *advertiser censored*. I firmly believe that sin just leads into deeper and deeper sin. And I think that is what happened here. It's also been studied that men who are deep into *advertiser censored* will eventually get bored and will watch worse *advertiser censored*, attend strip clubs, etc. etc. Maybe he went to strip clubs when he had that break down? Maybe his wife didn't fulfill his nasty sexual desires and so he looked else where? By peeking into a neighbors window? And maybe fantasying about other women including WH? And maybe this plays into why he didn't attend church every week is because he was dealing with this horrible sin. I am with others who think he took Whitney for sexual purposes, took her by gunpoint because how else could he get her alone? And did what he did because like many of you have said maybe she did bit down, or because afterwards he knew she would tell and he would be caught. In a very sick way maybe the taking her unwillingly was a sexual rush for him. And maybe it was Whitney because it was someone who lived close by, who was attractive, and looked to be very happy with her husband. Who knows how many woman he has looked in on but very VERY sadly WH was the one who caught his eye.

I think this is a very well reasoned argument that might explain a lot. He might have took her for sexual purposes, spurred on by *advertiser censored* or otherwise, and ended up killing her when he realized he would be caught. He might not necessarily be mental.

There's a lot we do not know so the original poster making an argument about *advertiser censored* is no different than the hypothesis others are giving on mental breakdown, etc.
 
I think I'm caught up but as we all know this thread moves fast! So please forgive me if any/all of this has already been discussed. A few random things on my mind from this thread and the last one. I'm going to split this up between "not so graphic" (given the horribleness of the crime) and "more graphic" so those who want to can skip the more graphic stuff.

- About "no blood" found, I don't think that's true. I don't remember exactly where it was but I know I saw pictures on a MSM site that included a bloody white "something." I couldn't tell what it was and frankly don't think I can stomach looking at the pic again but it was a fairly smooth fabric, like maybe t-shirt, handkerchief, or cloth napkin type of thing - not a towel-like material. It might've been in the same pic or series of pics with those Four Loko cans IIRC. As an aside I don't think the Four Loko is involved, just happened to be nearby.

- Where he might have asked her to take him - could it have been Walmart? The one where her SUV was found? I shudder to even think it but I vaguely remember reading that the Walmart was fairly close to her work. Before we knew she was found I was thinking she might've stopped in for a super quick errand before work. Although as I look more closely at the maps it seems like it'd be quite a bit further than her work. Could it have been to a bus or other regional transit type stop near her work? I don't know if it even matters, but it does seem strange.

- "5 minutes into the car ride" doesn't seem like it could be right. I know it's what he said, but really? He was paying attention to the clock? I doubt it. I think he either had the gun on her from the start, or he pulled it sometime shortly after they left, but I wouldn't put much weight on the "5 minute" time, MOO.

- About the motorcycle - WAS it at JH's apartment that morning? Do we know? I have read that a few times but never seen it confirmed. IF it wasn't, I wonder if it might've been somewhere near that Walmart so he could jump on and ride home?

- Timeline - if he had her from approx 6:45 to approx 8:40 as some have speculated might be the time she was killed based on the court document that is a LONG TIME in between abducting her and killing her, IMO. Way too long. :( I can't stop hoping she didn't suffer too much, but hard to logically think she didn't.

The time it takes from their apt. complex to Hogan Road, the Road listed on the court document, might take only 3 minutes, but it can take 5 minutes if you get caught at one of the 3 lights. Hwy 26 turns into Burnside Street. I am sure at most her work was only 3 minutes from her apartment.

If it is true that he pulled the gun on her at Hogan Street (aka 242nd St), then they would have to loop back around to get out to Dodge Park. When you go NW on Hwy 26/Burnside and you have to hang a right on Hogan Street, you can't turn left at that stop light. So the path I am assuming they took, would probably have to be North Hogan/242nd , right on Division, then either go straight on Division til you hit 302nd, right there, South to Lusted Road, then a Left on Lusted out to Dodge Park. That is about a 30 minute drive. But the court documents claim that the crime was committed on Thompson Road at South Roslyn Lake. Add another ten minutes up the windy road. Probably 40 minutes. The South end of Roslyn Lake has water I believe because of the natural springs and rain. The majority of the lake used to be filled up by the Little Sandy River and a water chute from Marmot Dam until they let the lake go dry a few years back. Now the North Road on the Lake is usually the busiest, because of fisherman and locals going to and from Sandy and the fishing spot at the Sandy Hatchery. I believe there is a Fire Station on that road. Now Thompson Road you have to actually go out of your way to go on the other side of the lake. Probably less traffic. If I remember correctly, when the lake was filled, there would be a line of fisherman up on the dirt wall in their chairs. When the lake got drained I am assuming all of the fish went as well, so there was only a small marsh left on the South end of the Lake where he threw his phone in and committed the crime.

Now the fact that he dumped evidence at Dodge Park baffled me, because of all of the fishermen there this time of year. It is prime Coho Season, with some Native Chinook and Summer Steelhead running. I was at Dodge Park a few days before this incident, on Sunday and the water was a bit murky but there were still a descent number of fishermen. About 10am the early fishermen are gone, then the after church or late bloomers head to the river, so you get a different crowd. Monday was a lot of rain, so that probably blew out the river and made it unfishable on Tuesday AM. But there are always the dedicated few on the river. Dodge park does have honeybucket bathrooms and I am not sure if they closed down the regular bathrooms. It would be tough to know if those cans were JH, or if they were left from someone else. I have had to jump over a lot of debris walking down to the river to fish. I am not sure where the LE found the evidence, but if it was toward the back of the park, I am sure that the fishermen didn't pay much attention, because you pull in the park and you are right at the river and parking lot. There is a road that takes you to the back, but I am not sure how they have that set up back there.

Now heading to Larch Mountain, I believe you can take Lusted Road West and a right on 302nd and that takes you to the back way without having to go through town, to the old Columbia Scenic Highway which in turn takes you to Larch Mountain area. So JH probably just used the 302nd Route , because it goes by farms and throws you out near Dabney Park.(Going North on 302nd turns into Kerslake Rd, before it hits Stark Street) I can not give you the timing on Dodge Park to Larch Mountain, because I have never been up there, but google maps might give you an idea. I am not sure if he gassed up before or after Larch Mountain. Either way the gas station is on top of the hill and he can turn around and go back down Stark Street toward Larch Mtn way.

As far as the Black Explorer. The first thing I noticed in the picture as well was the back tires muddy and the front ones pretty clean. That led me to believe that he had backed in to a muddy ledge or off road to hide the remains. Front tires on solid ground. As far as the license plate. I believe he ripped it off to hide the identity of the vehicle. I believe there might have been an Amber Alert that morning, Would have to be after CH called it in.

When JH parked the car at Walmart he knew the area, because he worked at Subway in the area up until last Summer. (Troutdale Outlet Mall) He probably walked up Wood Village Exit, through some trails near Mcmenammins (Halsey Street), threw the phone in the bushes and he was probably right at the bus stop near the apartments on 257th/Terrace Apts. 257th just happens to be a bus stop, near his old workplace. I am sure when he didn't have his bike he took the bus. I figured when they found the phone that it might be someone trying to return back to the apartment area via bus.

This is all speculation, but I thought I would throw my two cents in since it has affected our community so deeply. I did not know WH personally, but I had met her a few times at the drive thru and she was a very bright spirited warm lady. Our community is definitely shocked and saddened by her loss.
 
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