Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #62 ~ the appeal~

[Colin de France]

What evidence places his intent to murder Reeva beyond doubt?

The screams .....

 

[aftermath]

The screams .....

The screams that weren't proved as hers and could have been his on realising what he had just done.....

 

[mirage1]

As you mentioned- Pistorius also said the door/door frame made a noise. Not sure if this was ever countered. As wolmarans said- there is no way of knowing for sure what happened in that cubicle- it is all best guesswork. So for Pistorius to have been wrong about the magazine rack being the source of the noise isn't beyond the realms of possibility. What if he heard an entirely different noise and misinterpreted it in his panic?(also not beyond the realms of possibility, IMO) I don't think much can ultimately hinge on the wood noise, as the prosecution can't prove he didn't hear something... Also- why create such a specific lie as to describe a 'wood moving' noise, when he could have been vaguer in saying what he heard?

It must be specific because he needs a justification for opening fire on the person inside the toilet, so he is pretending he heard wood noise which sounded like the door opening, hence a threat and excuse to fire. It could not have actually been the door because it never opened or moved, so he needs something that sounds like the door opening which is why he is pretending its the magazine rack. You say the prosecution cant prove he didn't hear anything, but proved he was lying about the magazine rack. He was not mistaken he insisted it had been moved, which is a lie. If he did not hear the door, and the magazine rack move then what other wood moving sound was there? This is his testimony he must provide evidence to support it.

The photos of the duvet, fans, curtains etc don't prove he intended to kill reeva. There are explanations ( for what we see in the photos,) that are reasonably possibly true

What explanations? Even Oscar admitted if the photos are accurate his story cannot be true. The only thing left is wild OJ simpson conspiracy which obviously cannot be taken seriously.

 

[mirage1]

The screams that weren't proved as hers and could have been his on realising what he had just done.....

I forgot about this. We have multiple witnesses testifying they heard female screams. Very powerful evidence, and OP claimed he screamed like a women yet introduced no evidence to support this, for obvious reasons.

 

[GR_Turner]

Why wouldn't I? You can't just throw around police corruption so lightly, otherwise no case would ever stick. Your question is a red herring.

Because the police witnesses contradicted each other and were contradicted by police affidavits in respect of who attended the scene and when? And the state didn't call all the witnesses to clear this up?

 

[GR_Turner]

It must be specific because he needs a justification for opening fire on the person inside the toilet, so he is pretending he heard wood noise which sounded like the door opening, hence a threat and excuse to fire. It could not have actually been the door because it never opened or moved, so he needs something that sounds like the door opening which is why he is pretending its the magazine rack. You say the prosecution cant prove he didn't hear anything, but proved he was lying about the magazine rack. He was not mistaken he insisted it had been moved, which is a lie. If he did not hear the door, and the magazine rack move then what other wood moving sound was there? This is his testimony he must provide evidence to support it.




What explanations? Even Oscar admitted if the photos are accurate his story cannot be true. The only thing left is wild OJ simpson conspiracy which obviously cannot be taken seriously.

BIB1: How exactly do you expect him to prove he heard a sound? It makes no sense to demand such a thing. He said he heard a noise and was wrong about what he later thinks he must have heard. This does not prove that he didn't hear a sound (it could have been the door moving in the frame).

BIB2: - yes, if.

 

[GR_Turner]

I forgot about this. We have multiple witnesses testifying they heard female screams. Very powerful evidence, and OP claimed he screamed like a women yet introduced no evidence to support this, for obvious reasons.

Could you clarify why the following doesn't count as evidence in this regard in your view?

The following is as far as I'm aware evidence:

3 witnesses who heard a man crying in a high pitch for a few minutes but heard no woman screaming at any point
1 witness who heard female crying at the same time as the 4 witnesses heard female screaming
1 witness who heard female crying but was told by her husband that it was OP crying
2 pieces of evidence that the second bangs were at 3.17 which would put the female screaming at the same time as the male crying (and this evidence was not queried by the state)

Bear in mind that he didn't have to prove his version - it's the state who had to prove theirs. So unless the state could demonstrate that the evidence was wrong - and they didn't - it demonstrates clearly that there could have been a mistake about what the female screams were that night.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.sabreakingnews.co.za/2015/07/21/reeva-death-scene-sends-cop-over-the-edge/

Reeva death scene sends cop over the edge

A Pretoria police officer said the Reeva Steenkamp death scene triggered his recurring Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) to the point where he’s approached the court for an order allowing him to go on ill-health retirement, Pretoria News reported on Tuesday.

Warrant Officer Morné du Toit said in court papers submitted to the Pretoria High Court the “smell of death” hung over the door of convicted killer Oscar Pistorius’s Silver Woods Country Estate in Pretoria, where Steenkamp had been shot to death.

“I can still remember the distinct smell of death at the front door and today I can still taste blood in my mouth. This incident haunts me day and night, it controls my dreams and I can’t seem to make it go away,” said du Toit, a police photographer with more than 20 years’ experience.

Du Toit was asked to take pictures of everything in the home.

.................

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.sabreakingnews.co.za/2015/07/21/reeva-death-scene-sends-cop-over-the-edge/

“At the front door was a pile of towels, soaked in blood. All the walls from the main bedroom to the front door had blood splatters. The smell of death was prominent at the front door. I still remember the scene very clearly.”

According to the paper, du Toit said while he had seen many gruesome crime scenes, including mutilated bodies, this was the tipping point for him. He said this death scene made him realise he couldn’t carry on with this job.

“My traumatic past in the SAPS and this incident on February 14, 2013, triggered my present medical condition. I simply cannot proceed with my career within the police any longer,” Du Toit said in court papers.

“I have continuous dreams of lying in a bath of blood. These thoughts flash through my mind… it haunts me and keeps me awake.”

Du Toit applied for ill-health retirement two months after attending the death scene.

..............

 

[aftermath]

It must be specific because he needs a justification for opening fire on the person inside the toilet, so he is pretending he heard wood noise which sounded like the door opening, hence a threat and excuse to fire. It could not have actually been the door because it never opened or moved, so he needs something that sounds like the door opening which is why he is pretending its the magazine rack. You say the prosecution cant prove he didn't hear anything, but proved he was lying about the magazine rack. He was not mistaken he insisted it had been moved, which is a lie. If he did not hear the door, and the magazine rack move then what other wood moving sound was there? This is his testimony he must provide evidence to support it.




What explanations? Even Oscar admitted if the photos are accurate his story cannot be true. The only thing left is wild OJ simpson conspiracy which obviously cannot be taken seriously.

Yes it could have been the door:

if you lean against a closed wooden door, some doors will make a creaking cracking noise.

I don't think the prosecution proved he was lying about the magazine rack- but they certainly called his 'memory' of where it was into question.

It could have been a lie or it could have been a mistake. As I said- if he genuinely believed he heard a wood noise, (which at the time he interpreted as the door moving), and realised after the event that it wasn't the door opening, in his natural need (and legal pressure) to fill in narrative gaps, a logical possibility would be that a moveable wooden object (the rack) might have made the noise. This may have caused him to lie about its location, or it may have caused him to genuinely misremember its location - to make logical sense of what he heard.

Re the photos: if the duvet really was on the floor, what does it actually prove? That Pistorius didn't remember it being on the floor at some point? Not even Pistorius claimed things were moved by police in some great framing conspiracy- he just said things were moved. The crime scene was not preserved accurately- so the photos cannot be fully relied upon. What bits of his version do you believe the photos undermine?

 

[cottonweaver]

Oscar screams like a woman
(Reeva screams like a wild animal from the animal reserve)


Well here's an animal that sounds like wood moving


:crazy::crazy::crazy:
from today's Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/t...-bizarre-screeching-noise-tourists-Japan.html

 

[mirage1]

Because the police witnesses contradicted each other and were contradicted by police affidavits in respect of who attended the scene and when? And the state didn't call all the witnesses to clear this up?

Because its irrelevant? Police confusion as to who and and when the scene was attended = police corruption? I am sure they had other issues to focus on. This is just a red herring attempt to smear the damning evidence as was done with OJ simpson trial.

 

[Colin de France]

Oscar screams like a woman
(Reeva screams like a wild animal from the animal reserve)


Well here's an animal that sounds like wood moving


:crazy::crazy::crazy:
from today's Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/t...-bizarre-screeching-noise-tourists-Japan.html

....we must always keep in mind that regardless of his excuse for shooting the "intruder", it was after that he had asked him/her to get out.....plus the fact that no warning was given that he was armed....;

 

[mirage1]

BIB1: How exactly do you expect him to prove he heard a sound? It makes no sense to demand such a thing. He said he heard a noise and was wrong about what he later thinks he must have heard. This does not prove that he didn't hear a sound (it could have been the door moving in the frame).

He is the one telling the story so it needs to be plausible. He testified he heard 'wood movement' and the state proved he was lying. The door was not opened, and the magazine rack was out of reach of reeva, so what made the noise? fairys?

The crime scene photos are accurate.

 

[Colin de France]

Because its irrelevant? Police confusion as to who and and when the scene was attended = police corruption? I am sure they had other issues to focus on. This is just a red herring attempt to smear the damning evidence as was done with OJ simpson trial.

....and also because the "dads army" of Pistorius supporters have really nothing else to offer in terms of defense.......but they do help to keep the thread alive and kicking, that's the up side .....

 

[mirage1]

Could you clarify why the following doesn't count as evidence in this regard in your view?

The following is as far as I'm aware evidence:

3 witnesses who heard a man crying in a high pitch for a few minutes but heard no woman screaming at any point
1 witness who heard female crying at the same time as the 4 witnesses heard female screaming
1 witness who heard female crying but was told by her husband that it was OP crying
2 pieces of evidence that the second bangs were at 3.17 which would put the female screaming at the same time as the male crying (and this evidence was not queried by the state)

Bear in mind that he didn't have to prove his version - it's the state who had to prove theirs. So unless the state could demonstrate that the evidence was wrong - and they didn't - it demonstrates clearly that there could have been a mistake about what the female screams were that night.

So the state produced evidence of 2 independent witnesses hearing a female scream. Pretty damning evidence don't you think? The exact timing of the screams is secondary and will naturally vary because of the so many different variables. If Oscar claims he screamed like a woman he needed to produce evidence, for it to be taken seriously. We both know why he didn't.

 

[Colin de France]

He is the one telling the story so it needs to be plausible. He testified he heard 'wood movement' and the state proved he was lying. The door was not opened, and the magazine rack was out of reach of reeva, so what made the noise? fairys?

The crime scene photos are accurate.

....albeit that Pistorius supporter's don't speculate (well one at least !) i wonder how they would explain away if the reason for shooting was the toilet door lock moving just after having shouted for them to get out .....it does help to put the moving wood excuse into perspective.......we are in the realms of ridicule.....

 

[aftermath]

He is the one telling the story so it needs to be plausible. He testified he heard 'wood movement' and the state proved he was lying. The door was not opened, and the magazine rack was out of reach of reeva, so what made the noise? fairys?

The crime scene photos are accurate.

The door did not necessarily have to open to have made a noise. ..

How can you be sure of the accuracy of the photos?

 

[mirage1]

Yes it could have been the door:

if you lean against a closed wooden door, some doors will make a creaking cracking noise.

Some doors? What about that door? Oscar did not even claim that, he had to make up another excuse.

I don't think the prosecution proved he was lying about the magazine rack- but they certainly called his 'memory' of where it was into question.

It could have been a lie or it could have been a mistake. As I said- if he genuinely believed he heard a wood noise, (which at the time he interpreted as the door moving), and realised after the event that it wasn't the door opening, in his natural need (and legal pressure) to fill in narrative gaps, a logical possibility would be that a moveable wooden object (the rack) might have made the noise. This may have caused him to lie about its location, or it may have caused him to genuinely misremember its location - to make logical sense of what he heard.

When is something poor memory and when is it a lie? Remember he insists it was in a different location to the photos. If he is mistaken then what caused the noise to cause him to shoot. Where is the evidence of this? This is vital.

Re the photos: if the duvet really was on the floor, what does it actually prove? That Pistorius didn't remember it being on the floor at some point? Not even Pistorius claimed things were moved by police in some great framing conspiracy- he just said things were moved. The crime scene was not preserved accurately- so the photos cannot be fully relied upon. What bits of his version do you believe the photos undermine?

Oh ok, the accused claims the crime scene was not preserved and the court just accepts it and throws out the crime scene photos, the most objective evidence in the case? Doesn't work like that.

Oscar claims he put the fans inside, in front of the bed, which is when Reeva slipped past into the bathroom, so this moment is crucial. The problem is the large fan was photographed unmoved infront of the balcony door, and photos show the power adapter had no room for the other small fan to be plugged in, which Oscar INSISTS. If the Duvet was on the floor then he would not have put the fans on it when he moved them , and Reeva was supposed to be under the duvet at this point as well, so as you can see its all a connected web.

So the court is to believe all these vital bits of evidence were just accidental moved, and co incidently just moved into places which contradict Oscars story? You think this is credible argument?

 

[aftermath]

Some doors? What about that door? Oscar did not even claim that, he had to make up another excuse.



When is something poor memory and when is it a lie? Remember he insists it was in a different location to the photos. If he is mistaken then what caused the noise to cause him to shoot. Where is the evidence of this? This is vital.

As you said earlier he mentioned that he thought it was the door opening as the door in its frame made a noise. He also said he didn't know exactly what made the wood moving noise as he accepted the door didn't open. He was pressured into speculating and suggested the magazine rack. Perhaps the thought of reeva leaning on the door just didn't occur to him.

I guess poor/inaccurate/reconstructed memory is when there is a genuine albeit mistaken memory of something being somewhere it wasn't. If the only logical explanation that he could think of for the noise he heard was the rack, and he was certain he heard such a noise, it is understandable if his reconstructed memory places the rack where it would be likely to be moved.

A lie would be if he knows it wasn't where he says it was but insists on it all the same.However this kind of lie- whilst stupid- might still not indicate anything more sinister than someone who genuinely heard a wood moving noise, knows now it wasn't the door opening, believes the only other logical explanation to be the rack, but can't understand how it could have made the noise in the position it was in.

If he was mistaken about the likely cause of the noise (ie the mag rack), it could have been the door creaking as reeva leaned against it to listen to what was happening in the bathroom. ..
The evidence for this? The door I guess... but since it had panels missing, was whipped off its hinges and removed (then stepped on), who knows if it would make a similar noise now?