Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #64 ~ the appeal~

[JudgeJudi]

Also JJ, how's this for 'remorse'. Initially, he wouldn't even admit he'd killed her, but eventually (and reluctantly) admitted he'd made a 'mistake'. He also said she'd 'lost' her life that night. Lost? He took her life. His wording was intended to distance himself from the fact that he, and he alone, (no invisible intruder) was responsible for Reeva's death. He can't show remorse if he has no conscience.

Mistake.
Lost.

Yup. Nothing really to do with him.

I totally agree. He could never bring himself to say what he actually did.

Nel: You killed her. You shot and killed her. Will you not take responsibility for that?
OP: I did, M'Lady.
Nel: Then say it then. Say yes. I killed… I shot and killed Reeva Steenkamp.
OP: I did, M'Lady.

And not only was it an accident or a mistake, but he couldn't even bring himself to admit he shot her. The whole thing was always described as an incident. Maybe I'm being pedantic here but to me "incident" sounds like some trivial event.

 

[lithgow1]

Also JJ, how's this for 'remorse'. Initially, he wouldn't even admit he'd killed her, but eventually (and reluctantly) admitted he'd made a 'mistake'. He also said she'd 'lost' her life that night. Lost? He took her life. His wording was intended to distance himself from the fact that he, and he alone, (no invisible intruder) was responsible for Reeva's death. He can't show remorse if he has no conscience.

Mistake.
Lost.

Yup. Nothing really to do with him.

Good point about the use of the 'weasel words` used to describe what he did. And very interesting post Judge Judi. My personal feeling is that he genuinely believed he could and would be found not guilty on all charges and then resume his career, with sponsors, VIP tickets and all the other perks that come with being an elite athlete. Hence his extreme annoyance at putting his life on hold for a year!

IMO that was also behind the pleading not guilty to the ammo and Tasha`s charges. OK he got lucky with the ammo one, but his Tasha`s defence just made him look foolish, to the point where his counsel (I am sure) were behind his last minute change of plea. As to why he believed he would be able to put this shocking incident behind him I don't know, but his uncle`s comments about wanting to see him back in the Olympics before the trial had even concluded suggests that denial or something similar is a family trait.

 

[Viper]

It's funny that people can hear only what they want to hear with regards to the evidence presented at this trial, Masipa did that too. Crazy. I'm still trying to envision OP running around the house screaming in the voice of a man and a woman and crying in the voice of a woman for more than 20 minutes before he called EMS. The defense claimed and Masipa agreed that the gunshots came first, anyone rememember?

BTW, does anyone remember that "expert of all experts" who used a short person in one of his "scientific" recreations? It had to do with whether OP was on his legs, with the light on, immediately after loud bangs. LOL!

 

[cottonweaver]

And it struck me today, that whenever I have stayed at other people's houses in S.A. no-one has ever said words to the effect "please don't move around at night/go to loo/visit the kitchen as I might mistake you for a burglar/I am liable to arm myself and go commando on you".

And this regardless of the householder type, whether just wary or extremely fearful of crime, more vulnerable single female, families with young kids, young males etc. ( None of these instances involved safe, gated developments.)

 

[aftermath]

It's funny that people can hear only what they want to hear with regards to the evidence presented at this trial, Masipa did that too. Crazy. I'm still trying to envision OP running around the house screaming in the voice of a man and a woman and crying in the voice of a woman for more than 20 minutes before he called EMS. The defense claimed and Masipa agreed that the gunshots came first, anyone rememember?

BTW, does anyone remember that "expert of all experts" who used a short person in one of his "scientific" recreations? It had to do with whether OP was on his legs, with the light on, immediately after loud bangs. LOL!

The 20 minute gap doesn't exist, as the defence place the first shots nearer to 3:12.

At least Dixon explored Dr Stipp's sighting of someone. I don't recall the prosecution showing any photos of a man either standing, or on his knees, or on stumps to investigate Dr Stipp's view of the figure in the bathroom. As they needed for him to have still been on his stumps at the point where he was hitting the door, perhaps they just didn't want to risk producing a photo that might call this into question.
But yes -it was a little unscientific of Dixon to just get someone to kneel down... Just like Vermeulen testing the bat swings of a man on his stumps by crouching a bit /kneeling down!!

 

[Viper]

The 20 minute gap doesn't exist, as the defence place the first shots nearer to 3:12.

At least Dixon explored Dr Stipp's sighting of someone. I don't recall the prosecution showing any photos of a man either standing, or on his knees, or on stumps to investigate Dr Stipp's view of the figure in the bathroom. As they needed for him to have still been on his stumps at the point where he was hitting the door, perhaps they just didn't want to risk producing a photo that might call this into question.
But yes -it was a little unscientific of Dixon to just get someone to kneel down... Just like Vermeulen testing the bat swings of a man on his stumps by crouching a bit /kneeling down!!

Im not really into doing this anymore, but here:

March 3 - Oscar pleads not guilty to murder and three unrelated firearms charges. Pistorius's neighbour Michelle Berger, the first witness on the stand, tells the jury she heard ‘petrified and blood-curdling screams’ before the noise of gunshots at around 3am on the night Reeva was killed.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...sentence-a-timeline-of-the-trial-9807543.html

 

[Mr Fossil]

The 20 minute gap doesn't exist, as the defence place the first shots nearer to 3:12.

At least Dixon explored Dr Stipp's sighting of someone. I don't recall the prosecution showing any photos of a man either standing, or on his knees, or on stumps to investigate Dr Stipp's view of the figure in the bathroom. As they needed for him to have still been on his stumps at the point where he was hitting the door, perhaps they just didn't want to risk producing a photo that might call this into question.
But yes -it was a little unscientific of Dixon to just get someone to kneel down... Just like Vermeulen testing the bat swings of a man on his stumps by crouching a bit /kneeling down!!

BIB If Dr Stipp's sequence is accepted then he sees Oscar around the time he is about to phone Stander, so is on his prostheses. Prior to this, Stipp sees the light on soon after hearing the first sounds and it is quite possible for OP to be on his stumps and hence unseen in the bathroom. In the BGK scenario, the Dixon experiment was a simply a defence distraction to establish in the minds of the court something which the prosecution hadn't alleged, that Stipp saw OP around the time he was batting the door. The prosecution say the sounds around 03:17 (I say earlier than this but they are the second sounds) were the gunshots which killed Reeva, not the bat, and Stipp then calls security, hears helps, speaks to security at his house before he then sees OP walking in the bathroom.

 

[aftermath]

Im not really into doing this anymore, but here:

March 3 - Oscar pleads not guilty to murder and three unrelated firearms charges. Pistorius's neighbour Michelle Berger, the first witness on the stand, tells the jury she heard ‘petrified and blood-curdling screams’ before the noise of gunshots at around 3am on the night Reeva was killed.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...sentence-a-timeline-of-the-trial-9807543.html

Thank you for the link, but it is not the defense's case that the shots fired happened at 3am. However 'at around 3am' is sufficiently vague as to encompass 3:12ish, I would have thought.
On the defence version, there is not a twenty minute gap between shots and bat.

 

[Trotterly]

All the examples listed here, to Viper, have been exhaustively discussed threads 61-63, but as for Dr Stipp's bath lights on during the killing, this is what Stipp actually recounted:

From the daily telegraph’s live feed for that day

Stipp heard 3 bangs, got up, went to balcony, saw lights on at same time as he heard woman’s screams. It was "moments" between first three bangs and the screams. ( comparison of his use of word “moments” elsewhere in his testimony , strongly suggest moments=seconds for Stipp)
“Stipp says he could see a light on in the bathroom, which he noticed when he first heard a lady’s voice screaming, three or four times.”

As we know, at the time of incident, he thought the three loud bangs that woke him were shots as were the second set, but later on stand he also suggested to Roux it could be bats then shots sequence.

Stipp was adamant that the whole event, including the two sets of sounds, happened very quickly

BIB If they've been exhaustively discussed then it should be possible to get them right as per my previous post. I'll assume my corrected evidence stands as it has not been challenged.

Viper claimed that the lights were on before the shots. How is any of what you have said relevant to that?

 

[Viper]

Thank you for the link, but it is not the defense's case that the shots fired happened at 3am. However 'at around 3am' is sufficiently vague as to encompass 3:12ish, I would have thought.
On the defence version, there is not a twenty minute gap between shots and bat.

Post a link to support your statements.

Its is the defense team's position that the gunshots came first and the bat sounds came second, about 16 - 20 minutes apart. It just sounds a lot better than the reverse, which would have Reeva trapped in the WC, screaming, as OP bashed the door hard with the bat to torment and threaten her, trying to get to her, at about 3:00, then killing her some 20 minutes later.

 

[cottonweaver]

BIB If they've been exhaustively discussed then it should be possible to get them right as per my previous post. I'll assume my corrected evidence stands as it has not been challenged.

Viper claimed that the lights were on before the shots. How is any of what you have said relevant to that?

As you have followed the whole of threads 61, 62, 63 you will be aware that all the points have been discussed at great length over several months by a wide range of posters, but AFAIK know, before that OPosters return to WS.

However the lights on issue had not been "done to death".

My link to Stipp's testimony re lights at the time of a woman screaming - the relevance speaks for itself. But I won't elaborate there as I personally, find it really dull to keep going over and over the same thing- my flaw - am easily bored!

 

[Interested Bystander]

The 20 minute gap doesn't exist, as the defence place the first shots nearer to 3:12.

At least Dixon explored Dr Stipp's sighting of someone. I don't recall the prosecution showing any photos of a man either standing, or on his knees, or on stumps to investigate Dr Stipp's view of the figure in the bathroom. As they needed for him to have still been on his stumps at the point where he was hitting the door, perhaps they just didn't want to risk producing a photo that might call this into question.
But yes -it was a little unscientific of Dixon to just get someone to kneel down... Just like Vermeulen testing the bat swings of a man on his stumps by crouching a bit /kneeling down!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-expert-contradicts-athletes-own-account.html

"The defence expert was laterforced to admit that a model whom they had walk past the bathroom window on hisknees to mimic Pistorius on his stumps was 20cm shorter than the athlete.
The demonstration was set up totest evidence by a close neighbour that he saw a man walk past the windowshortly after hearing shots and screams early on February 14 last year, thenight Steenkamp died.
"We wanted to see whether aperson was visible," Mr Dixon explained.
"If you wanted to do that,why did you not ensure the person was right height?” Mr Nel asked. “Why wouldyou present that as evidence?”
He responded that it was an“oversight”, telling the judge: “I am not trying to mislead the court M’Lady.”


These photos are from Lisa's blog
https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/14/oscar-trial-day-22-part-2-dixon/

 

[aftermath]

Post a link to support your statements.

Its is the defense team's position that the gunshots came first and the bat sounds came second, about 16 - 20 minutes apart. It just sounds a lot better than the reverse, which would have Reeva trapped in the WC, screaming, as OP bashed the door hard with the bat to torment and threaten her, trying to get to her, at about 3:00, then killing her some 20 minutes later.

Sir, yes Sir! Link to defense HOA:

https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/08/08/oscar-trial-defense-heads-of-argument/

It is indeed the defense team's position that the gunshots came first before the bat, but the interval they suggest is closer to five minutes rather than the twenty you suggest.

 

[aftermath]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-expert-contradicts-athletes-own-account.html

"The defence expert was laterforced to admit that a model whom they had walk past the bathroom window on hisknees to mimic Pistorius on his stumps was 20cm shorter than the athlete.
The demonstration was set up totest evidence by a close neighbour that he saw a man walk past the windowshortly after hearing shots and screams early on February 14 last year, thenight Steenkamp died.
"We wanted to see whether aperson was visible," Mr Dixon explained.
"If you wanted to do that,why did you not ensure the person was right height?” Mr Nel asked. “Why wouldyou present that as evidence?”
He responded that it was an“oversight”, telling the judge: “I am not trying to mislead the court M’Lady.”


These photos are from Lisa's blog
https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/14/oscar-trial-day-22-part-2-dixon/

Sadly I cant post copies of the State's photographic investigation into what Dr Stipp could see in the bathroom because they didn't bother producing any...

 

[cottonweaver]

Something new - a point made by another poster - seen whilst browsing another forum.

Namely, that if the SCA do not timetable in for early Nov ( as opposed to end as was mooted a few months ago), then the chances are that the judgment will be delayed until Feb. Can anyone corroborate that here- ie. holding the decision over til Feb?

I checked one of of my old posts on SCA and sure enough the final term for SCA in 2015 ends on 31st Nov, with it recommencing in Feb 2016.

Now that would be a long time to wait for a decision and it's arguable now that OP could still be inside then by Feb 2016.
( In SA context I appreciate that a long time inside whilst waiting for an Appeal, or even on remand is the norm.)

 

[aftermath]

Something new - a point made by another poster - seen whilst browsing another forum.

Namely, that if the SCA do not timetable in for early Nov ( as opposed to end as was mooted a few months ago), then the chances are that the judgment will be delayed until Feb. Can anyone corroborate that here- ie. holding the decision over til Feb?

I checked one of of my old posts on SCA and sure enough the final term for SCA in 2015 ends on 31st Nov, with it recommencing in Feb 2016.

Now that would be a long time to wait for a decision and it's arguable now that OP could still be inside then by Feb 2016.
( In SA context I appreciate that a long time inside whilst waiting for an Appeal, or even on remand is the norm.)

Even if it does get delayed until February 2016, I think Pistorius's release under correctional supervision will have been sorted before then.

 

[soozieqtips]

Sadly I cant post copies of the State's photographic investigation into what Dr Stipp could see in the bathroom because they didn't bother producing any...

What exactly does your response have to do with the fact a defence "expert" used a model 20cm shorter than OP to 'prove' what the Stipps would have seen in the bathroom? Dixon was so incompetent he didn't even bother to use a proper sized model for the experiment (no doubt using his 'eyes' as a measuring tape). It doesn't require an obligatory criticism of the state every time the defence is shown up for being incompetent. It's not a competition...

 

[lithgow1]

Sadly I cant post copies of the State's photographic investigation into what Dr Stipp could see in the bathroom because they didn't bother producing any...

Well if Dixon`s `my eyes` were good enough, why not Dr Stipps? Funny that you imply a criticism of the State but seem fine with Dixon's attempt to mislead the court or his incompetence. Has to be one or the other.

 

[aftermath]

What exactly does your response have to do with the fact a defence "expert" used a model 20cm shorter than OP to 'prove' what the Stipps would have seen in the bathroom? Dixon was so incompetent he didn't even bother to use a proper sized model for the experiment (no doubt using his 'eyes' as a measuring tape). It doesn't require an obligatory criticism of the state every time the defence is shown up for being incompetent. It's not a competition...

It doesn't require an obligatory criticism of the state, no. And yet Vermeulen- the state 'expert' - crouched/knelt in order to check the bat swing. A criticism might not be required, but it still makes a fair comparison. You don't think..?

 

[cottonweaver]

Even if it does get delayed until February 2016, I think Pistorius's release under correctional supervision will have been sorted before then.

What leads you to think that ?
Personally it simply had not occurred to me that SCA could even hold over a decision like that ( not being an expert in these matters) let alone it's follow-on implications for OP.