Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #66~ the appeal~

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Along with Judge Judi's helpful summation, I take heart in this review of the appeal hearing:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...ius-appeal-state-seeks-murder-conviction-live

Thanks for that interesting summing up and also JJ for your previous post and everyone else's too. It has been interesting reading catching up after a week away from all things Oscar. With the bit I have snipped and pasted in below, it looks like Roux is avoiding answering the question.

Roux says it makes sense to him that Masipa ruled she could not find dolus eventualis because Pistorius genuinely thought it was an intruder in the cubicle.

But why does the identity matter, the bench wants to know: did Pistorius think he was entitled to shoot at whoever was behind the door?

Identity doesn’t come into it, says Roux, because it never entered Pistorius’ mind that the person behind the door was Steenkamp.
 
Thanks for that interesting summing up and also JJ for your previous post and everyone else's too. It has been interesting reading catching up after a week away from all things Oscar. With the bit I have snipped and pasted in below, it looks like Roux is avoiding answering the question.

Roux says it makes sense to him that Masipa ruled she could not find dolus eventualis because Pistorius genuinely thought it was an intruder in the cubicle.

But why does the identity matter, the bench wants to know: did Pistorius think he was entitled to shoot at whoever was behind the door?

Identity doesn’t come into it, says Roux, because it never entered Pistorius’ mind that the person behind the door was Steenkamp.

Indeed. Roux's circular reasoning worked on Masipa, but I don't think it is going to fly with the SCA.
 
Does anyone know how to attach a Word document to a post? I've gone to Go Advanced, Add files ... and the next part is where I'm encountering the problem. I can't see how to upload something from my computer other than pictures. I just want the Word doc icon to appear. I've managed to see it listed but it says it's an invalid file. Obviously I need some step by step instructions. I'd be extremely grateful if someone knows how to do it.

ETA: The Word doc is 36 pages in length. It occurred to me that perhaps it's too long. It's a transcript.
 
I first thought he had avoided the question but then I realised that he didn't avoid it, he gave a wrong answer. It's the old smoke and mirrors trick that worked once for him.

Roux's answer - no, no, identity doesn't matter because Pistorius thought it was an intruder.

yeah right :crosseyed:
 
Sorry Judge Judi, I have no clue how to help you
 
Does anyone know how to attach a Word document to a post? I've gone to Go Advanced, Add files ... and the next part is where I'm encountering the problem. I can't see how to upload something from my computer other than pictures. I just want the Word doc icon to appear. I've managed to see it listed but it says it's an invalid file. Obviously I need some step by step instructions. I'd be extremely grateful if someone knows how to do it.

the permitted file types are listed under the '?' mark top right of the attachments dialogue box.

maybe your word file is .docx [invalid]
if your word file is .doc [valid]
 

Attachments

I first thought he had avoided the question but then I realised that he didn't avoid it, he gave a wrong answer. It's the old smoke and mirrors trick that worked once for him.

Roux's answer - no, no, identity doesn't matter because Pistorius thought it was an intruder.

yeah right :crosseyed:

That's the precise moment when I think even Roux himself knew he was not fooling the SCA and hence his sotto voce comment to Nel: "I am going to lose."
 
I promised I would get back so here goes. Firstly I need to correct some timing. I have listened to Mrs Stipps evidence (not the cross ex that I listened to before). She does say the clock registered 03.17 when hearing the second set of sounds. Given that her clock is known to be 3-4 minutes fast she is talking about 03.13-03.14. So the length between the shots, on her timekeeping, was between 15-16 minute apart. I think I was confused a little by having listened to Roux and Nel arguing about the timing when both stated 03.17 for the second sounds. So we now have first sounds at 02.58 and second sounds at 03.13/14. If one follows OP's argument that the first sounds were in fact when he killed RS, he left it 21 minutes before calling Stander for help at 03.19. WHY? At 3.21 he told security he was OK or fine, ie did not need help. WHY? It seems neither OP or Stander had called for an ambulance until Stipp arrived. WHY?

One of the most interesting tactical battles in terms of trial management all along was the difficulty in timings for the defence that needed to be kept as confusing as possible, even though OP must obviously know what the timings were.

The problem is as follows.

The second bangs are fixed by Stipps call to the security phone at 3:15:51 (we don't know how exactly that relates to Stipps' personal clocks)

While Stipp might have been able to call essentially as the 2nd bangs were heard, Mike N also calls security - so there has to be enough time for his wife to wake him up, muck around, and then call security.

Generously that puts the 2nd bangs at 3.14 at the latest - and the "shots" somewhere from 2-5 mins earlier - which creates impossible difficulty with the blood spray

So the "fix" for this is to pretend that Mr & Mrs N were awoken by the first shots and completely don't hear the second bangs !!

However that creates a mess of Stipp's evidence so now we are pretending they had their timings out by 10 mins and order wrong!

But even with all this - it doesn't work

The problem is that all the screaming really needs to be short. Grab gun. Shout a bit. Shoot. Break door. 2-3 mins. That's a lot of screaming and yet doesn't cover what the witnesses heard.

So because of the "timeline" (™) it also needs to be more like 5+ mins not to mention filler time of hugging Reeva etc to account for the missing 2 odd mins before calling.

So you end up with the strangeness of the time between the shots being both a couple of minutes and 5 minutes according to OP

But clearly neither elapsed time can work in order for the Stipps to work with Mr N AND for Mr Johnson to still hear shots at 3.17

Especially because Stipp either has to call security to report 2nd shots which haven't happened yet OR hasn't got enough time to call

Even shaving 10 mins off the Stipps and ignoring what time they saw on their clock can't fix that aspect.

You keep coming back to OP needing to shoot Reeva at around 3.12 - but then the impossibility of Arterial spray after 3.19

Or you can shorten it by 2-3 mins but then people are trying to dial in shoots which didn't happen yet
 
the permitted file types are listed under the '?' mark top right of the attachments dialogue box.

maybe your word file is .docx [invalid]
if your word file is .doc [valid]

Thank you sleuth. The word file is .docx. Hopefully there will be a way around it.
 
JJ I don't think either .doc or .docx can be uploaded. The upload facility does say the following file types only can be uploaded.

Allowed File types: jpg, jpeg, png, gif

You may be able to take a screenshot
of each page (with the snipping too) and then save it as a jpg or png and upload or possibly use a print screen and save that as a png. I cannot think of another way. Usually if a forum does not allow a doc file it will allow the document to be saved as a zip file but there is no option for that either. If it is several pages, each page will need to be a separate file.

I attach two files for you to look at to show how it looks. One is of the post I am in the middle of typing using the Snipping Tool and the other is via the Print Scrn button on the computer. However you may need to check if you have the program called Paint as that is where it can easily be opened and saved as a png.

I hope this may help.
 

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Just adding to this.

Stipps both report 3 shots - then screams that go on for several mins and then they spend several mins trying to work out where it is coming from.

Even if this is at 3:12 ( a full 10 mins change in Stipp's evidence - i.e. wild speculation), Dr Stipp has to talking to security by 3:15:51 - so now this is all happening in 3-4 mins at most AND we have to believe that Dr Stipp speaks to security BEFORE he hears more shooting. But if that happened, when security arrived, wouldn't he tell them there had been further shooting?

At the same time as this absurdity - Mr and Mrs N who are right next door don't hear the further bangs or any screams at all, yet do hear Oscar, and yet Johnson much further away hears them and calls security???!!??

Meanwhile mr and mrs N don't report 5 mins of screaming - it really needs to be more like a couple at most to work for them as Mr N needs to be on the phone by 3:16:13

But actually Mr N doesn't hear any screaming? Rather crying?

His next call to security was at 3:16:36 and he did get through this time. The call was 44 seconds long.... After the phone call, he could still hear the crying.

So where did the cricket bats go? At this time the Stipps & Johnson are hearing screaming ended by bangs according to Roux?

oh dear

Nel says, you know from following the case that the Stipps gave evidence of a woman screaming. He wants to know if Mike heard a woman screaming. He says, no, he did not. Nel also points out the testimony of Burger stating that she heard blood-curdling screams from a woman that night. He asks Mike if he heard that. He says, no, he did not. And Nel points out that Burger heard 4 gunshots at 3:17am. Did he hear that? Mike says it’s quite interesting to hear what others heard, but he did not hear any of those things. He only heard the crying.

Of course the most natural conclusion is that Mike N is simply a witness to what happened after the second bangs - collaborated by his wife.

No screams heard! No 2nd shots heard!
 
Thank you sleuth. The word file is .docx. Hopefully there will be a way around it.

You can save it back to doc format

But why not just put it on google dox?

I would love a copy of this!
 
Does anyone know how to attach a Word document to a post? I've gone to Go Advanced, Add files ... and the next part is where I'm encountering the problem. I can't see how to upload something from my computer other than pictures. I just want the Word doc icon to appear. I've managed to see it listed but it says it's an invalid file. Obviously I need some step by step instructions. I'd be extremely grateful if someone knows how to do it.

ETA: The Word doc is 36 pages in length. It occurred to me that perhaps it's too long. It's a transcript.

Upload by copy /paste into pastie.org and share link ? I find that the fastest way to share Word documents to a forum that are that long. You know how we love links ;)

Link please :biggrin:
 
JJ, I have just seen you say it is over 30 pages long. My ideas are no good, sorry. Much better to upload to a facility and post the link.
 
Can you explain why it is circular reasoning because I don't see it.

He didn't intend to kill anyone, because he thought Reeva was in the bedroom.

As Justice Leach pointed out - he is begging the question
 
Can you explain why it is circular reasoning because I don't see it.

Just like in Masipa's judgment, Roux keeps trying to say that he could not have intended to shoot the person behind the door because he thought Reeva was in the bedroom.

I think it would be easier to just leave Reeva's identity out of it.
Just stick to the intruder version which is apparently what we have to work with if you rule DD of Reeva out.

Even though I think it would be interesting to consider the application of DD to the intruder (if you can throw out his PPD claim as illegitimate under the circumstances), Nel has already discounted that as an option.

So we are left with DE of the intruder (forget Reeva-- he's just going to claim he thought she was in the bedroom)-- and you seem to go in circles back around to DD negated by his PPD claim and therefore DE is also ruled out. Not sure I get that logic.

You are correct that DE is not a second best alternative charge to DD, but in this instance of Error in Objecto, and his INTENT to shoot at the intruder and with his knowledge and foresight of what his weapon and those bullets were capable of, it's hard to argue that he did not understand the possibility of killing someone in the toilet cubicle by firing 4 rounds.

So forget Reeva, forget DD and you are just left with DE of the intruder. The only defense that might work here is when Oscar claimed he did not intend to fire... and that he did not intentionally pull the trigger (automatism defense) which negates his PPD claim of intentional self-defense. So here we go in circles.

It's just simple DE of the intruder based on the fact that he willfully approached the perceived threat, and without identifying the person behind the door, fired four rounds, knowing the consequences of his actions and proceeding regardless.

Wish I had more time to look back at your earlier posts and hash this out with you, but I have to get to work!!

Be back asap.
 
:waiting:

If they don't come out with a written verdict by the 1st of December they are on vacation until February.. is that correct.. and we will have to wait until then?
 
RSBM
JJ I don't think either .doc or .docx can be uploaded. The upload facility does say the following file types only can be uploaded.

Allowed File types: jpg, jpeg, png, gif

I hope this may help.


Thanks IB. I do use the snipping tool all the time. PNG files are huge compared to jpeg so I convert them to jpeg in Paint. I saw your post further up the page, so yes, I can't do it that way. I tried atthelake's suggestion but you lose all the formatting. Hopefully Mr Fossil will be able to help me out and maybe he can post it for me. Where there's a will there's a way.

The reason why I want to post it is because you and a number of others have found it necessary to keep returning to the trial video and I thought this would be infinitely more convenient.
 
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