Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #66~ the appeal~

[sleuth-d-]

op’s five quick calls.

some more strangeness with the timeline and op’s version.

1. 03:19:03 / 03:19:27 / op calls stander / 24 seconds
2. 03:20:05 / 03:21:11 / op calls netcare / 66 seconds

now in eic op says:
“after I got off the call from netcare I ran downstairs to open the front door”

he has to leave the bathroom, go down the bedroom corridor, unlock the bedroom door, go through the tv room, along the upstairs corridor, across the atrium walkway, down staircase one to the landing, down staircase two to the ground floor, across the hall
unlock the front door
then back up the stairs and back to the bathroom.
on the way back he stops to run into the secondary bedroom door and bends down to unlatch the lock.

[surely he also has to get the alarm fob at some point to switch the interior alarm off]

he completes this in 22 seconds.

having done all this at unbelievable speed, [he’s in such a rush to get reeva to the hospital]… a total change of pace, he then stops to phone baba???!

3 03:21:33 / 03:21:42 / op calls baba - op-crying / 9 seconds

and then phones voicemail!!

4 03:21:47 / 03:21:54 / calls 121 / 7 seconds

and then picks up a return call from baba!!!

5 03:22:05 / 03:22:17 / baba calls back : op-'everything is fine' / 12 seconds

44 more seconds have elapsed. what happened to the rush? he is supposed to be rushing her to hospital. only then does he pick up reeva and carry her downstairs…

3:22 approx. stander arrives [from masipa’s timeline]


in eic, he has been prompted earlier by roux about the baba call, but somehow ‘forgets’ about these calls [and call 4 which is not mentioned by anyone] and goes straight on to talking about picking reeva up and taking her downstairs.


does it sound reasonable?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Plus 5 or so minutes before the Standers arrive. They had to get dressed, get in the car and drive a couple of minutes to OP's.

Though RS would have been fatally injured by the head shot her heart may well have beat for a few minutes after this. I know Jake on this forum is an emergency room doctor. Maybe if she sees this she could run us through the time possibilities. I think she has done this before but I have forgotten what it was she said. Maybe someone on here remembers what she said. I know there was a long discussion about possibilities. Obviously RS's heart would have stopped fairly quickly due to loss of blood and blood pressure but she was still gurgling when she was laid on the floor downstairs. That would have to have been up to 10 minutes after being shot if the fatal shots were fired around 03.16. I know in animals there are recorded incidences of the heart beating for another 17 minutes after fatal head wounds but RS also had a severed artery in her upper arm and severe injuries to her thigh.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/oscar-pistorius-vomits-reeva-steenkamp-shooting
...........
"If a surgeon were to operate on a patient shot in this nature you have to be careful as you can easily cut yourself on these edges."According to Saayman, Steenkamp suffered bullet wounds in her head, hip and elbow and any could have caused her death because of the extent of the bleeding. She also received injuries from bullet fragments, wood splinters from the door and pieces of her own bone.

A bullet that hit the right side of Steenkamp's head fractured her skull and entered her brain. She would have lost consciousness and "the deceased probably didn't breathe more than a few times after sustaining this wound", Saayman said. "The wound to the head was incapacitating and probably almost instantly fatal."

 

[sleuth-d-]

He therefore had 3-4 minutes after shooting before he phoned Stander.

Open (unlocked) toilet door and drag Reeva out of the toilet into the bathroom, where her blood pooled next to the cricket bat already lying there
Hear the security buggy, look out of the window and see security arriving at Stipp's residence
Realise that the damage on the toilet door would reveal more than just bullet holes
Use the cricket bat to lever out the already cracked panels

He then ran to the bedroom where his phone was, to call Stander leaving blood cast off on the wall next to the bed
Thought it would look bad if he hadn't called an ambulance or security for help, so made an alibi silent call to Netcare while he thought about what he would say to security
Made a quick call to security and again cut off the call without saying anything, he had to get Reeva downstairs before anyone arrived - he hadn't had time to check over the bathroom for mistakes
Ran down to open the door with his phone, while security rang him back, told them all was fine
Ran back up and carried Reeva out sideways through the single open door of the double doors.

My other theory is that he already knew, before he killed Reeva, when he picked up his gun, that he would say he thought she was an intruder. That's why he kept a gun under his bed so it wasn't hard to think of a reason for using it. IMO that is also why he had to chase her to the toilet and get her hiding from him behind the door. It explains his mock calls for help. Reeva is calling for help and he joins in. He knows neighbours or Frank might have heard her.

totally agree about op seeing/hearing the buggy and/or stipp at the balcony

bbm
[back to the op version]
more that doesn't make sense

having gone to all the trouble to get into the toilet...
why would you drag your loved one out?

he proved within the next couple of minutes that he was well capable of picking her up and carrying her.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

He therefore had 3-4 minutes after shooting before he phoned Stander.

Open (unlocked) toilet door and drag Reeva out of the toilet into the bathroom, where her blood pooled next to the cricket bat already lying there
Hear the security buggy, look out of the window and see security arriving at Stipp's residence
Realise that the damage on the toilet door would reveal more than just bullet holes
Use the cricket bat to lever out the already cracked panels

He then ran to the bedroom where his phone was, to call Stander leaving blood cast off on the wall next to the bed
Thought it would look bad if he hadn't called an ambulance or security for help, so made an alibi silent call to Netcare while he thought about what he would say to security
Made a quick call to security and again cut off the call without saying anything, he had to get Reeva downstairs before anyone arrived - he hadn't had time to check over the bathroom for mistakes
Ran down to open the door with his phone, while security rang him back, told them all was fine
Ran back up and carried Reeva out sideways through the single open door of the double doors.

My other theory is that he already knew, before he killed Reeva, when he picked up his gun, that he would say he thought she was an intruder. That's why he kept a gun under his bed so it wasn't hard to think of a reason for using it. IMO that is also why he had to chase her to the toilet and get her hiding from him behind the door. It explains his mock calls for help. Reeva is calling for help and he joins in. He knows neighbours or Frank might have heard her.

Yes, yes, yes - all more possible than his own version!
Maybe, he opened the second bedroom door, when for minutes again upstairs, while Mr Stipp was there? The witnesses had fear of his life (poor boy ran towards his gun), but OP was staging something, for what had been no time at the first place.

 

[Interested Bystander]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/oscar-pistorius-vomits-reeva-steenkamp-shooting
...........
"If a surgeon were to operate on a patient shot in this nature you have to be careful as you can easily cut yourself on these edges."According to Saayman, Steenkamp suffered bullet wounds in her head, hip and elbow and any could have caused her death because of the extent of the bleeding. She also received injuries from bullet fragments, wood splinters from the door and pieces of her own bone.

A bullet that hit the right side of Steenkamp's head fractured her skull and entered her brain. She would have lost consciousness and "the deceased probably didn't breathe more than a few times after sustaining this wound", Saayman said. "The wound to the head was incapacitating and probably almost instantly fatal."

Yes, I agree that was said but it is possible for the heart to still beat without breathing.

Cardiac muscle cells are autorhythmic - they contract on their own and react with each other. Other parts of the body are made up of other muscle cells that rely on the nervous or hormonal stimulation to move.

Of course, the heart needs oxygen, and plenty of it. But, it can keep beating for quite a few minutes without breathing. This is what makes resuscitation possible sometimes even after more than 15 minutes of no breathing and heartbeat.

While the heart can keep beating for some time after the breathing stops, the reverse is practically not possible. Breathing is only possible with a functioning brainstem, and to keep the brainstem working, it needs blood full of oxygen. So, breathing usually stops seconds after the heart stops, and can be restarted only together with the heart during a cardiopulmonary resuscitation.

 

[Interested Bystander]

In response to "FromGermany" Post 262 (sorry I forgot to post it as a Reply with Quote)

This may explain the condition better.

http://www.nursingtimes.net/clinical-subjects/neurology/the-diagnosis-of-brainstem-death-and-its-implications/203314.fullarticle

The brainstem is much smaller, found at the base of the brain, and is the anatomical link between the spinal cord and the rest of the brain. Its main function is to control the vital functions of the body. Specific areas within it control body temperature, blood pressure and breathing. The brainstem is also responsible for coordinating swallowing, coughing, sneezing, eyeball movement and the maintenance of consciousness (Tortora and Derrickson, 2006).
Damage to the brainstem will affect its functions - severe damage can cause a complete loss of activity in this area. The most immediately important consequence of this will be the inability to breathe. The other immediate impact will be loss of consciousness and coma. Loss of the other brainstem functions will only cause problems over time.
The heart will continue to beat, maintaining circulation and a certain level of blood pressure because the nature of cardiac tissue means the heart can continue to beat without external stimulation. The main role for the brainstem is to alter heart rate and blood pressure in response to changed demand. As the person is unconscious and immobile, demand will not normally change. If it does, for example through blood loss, the heart may no longer be able to maintain an adequate circulation (White, 2003).



EDIT Fatal means the condition will eventually cause death - it does not necessarily mean instantaneous death. With RS bleeding out she obviously was not going to last long even if her heart continued long enough to cause a few arterial spurts. She would have died from the fatal head injuries and loss of blood. That time may depend on whether OP attempted to stem the blood flow in the bathroom. By holding his hand on her injuries he may have stemmed the flow and allowed the heart to continue beating longer than if he had done nothing. I don't think we know whether he did this in the bathroom or not. Even if he had, death for Reeva was inevitable.

The process of death had already started when Stipp examined her even though she may still have been gurgling (earlier) as was stated by Miss Stander, I believe. Gurgling can only occur with breathing so if Miss Stander was correct, Reeva was still breathing, possibly very weakly, at the time she was first laid at the bottom of the stairs. I don't think Stipp arrived until a few minutes after the Standers and Reeva was obviously beyond help when he examined her.

The only other reason I can think of, if Reeva did gurgle, is that when OP laid her down there was some compression of her chest which might have expelled air from her lungs and caused the sounds.

 

[Tortoise]

Yes, yes, yes - all more possible than his own version!
Maybe, he opened the second bedroom door, when for minutes again upstairs, while Mr Stipp was there? The witnesses had fear of his life (poor boy ran towards his gun), but OP was staging something, for what had been no time at the first place.

The second bedroom door was still latched at the top when the police photographed it. This was picked up by Mr Fossil/JJ.

He told the court he had opened it to explain why the door was broken, but Nel didn't notice from the photographs that it wasn't open.

 

[Tortoise]

totally agree about op seeing/hearing the buggy and/or stipp at the balcony

bbm
[back to the op version]
more that doesn't make sense

having gone to all the trouble to get into the toilet...
why would you drag your loved one out?

he proved within the next couple of minutes that he was well capable of picking her up and carrying her.

I'm interested in the key he left in the lock on the outside of the toilet door.

I think the key was on the inside lock earlier when OP was hitting the door with the cricket bat. I think Reeva locked it. Then I think she came out of the toilet after he went back to the bedroom, and that is when she chanced to get her jeans and her phone. He had his gun in his hands by that time and was blocking her from leaving through the bedroom door. As she turned with her back to him, bent over slightly to put a foot into one of the legs of her jeans he hit her on the back with the gun handle. So I think she ran, screaming, with her jeans in her hands back to the bathroom and when she heard him chasing after her she screamed louder and threw her jeans out of the window, before dashing back into the toilet. I think he shot her immediately and she was still closing the door, never getting the chance to lock it.

So why did he move the key?

After breaking out all the panels he realised that the police would ask why he hadn't just removed one panel and turned the key from the inside to unlock the door. So he moved the key and invented the story about it having been on the floor.

Roux says it wasn't strange that she would have locked the door for her own safety. OK, but then there is no explanation at all for her taking the key out of the lock, as Oscar's story says she must have done.

 

[sleuth-d-]

The second bedroom door was still latched at the top when the police photographed it. This was picked up by Mr Fossil/JJ.

He told the court he had opened it to explain why the door was broken, but Nel didn't notice from the photographs that it wasn't open.

the op explanation about the bedroom door damage was real nonsense.
the second bedroom door wasn't even unlocked at the bottom.

i posted on this - and the type of lock - way back during the trial.

 

[mrjitty]

Plus 5 or so minutes before the Standers arrive. They had to get dressed, get in the car and drive a couple of minutes to OP's.

Though RS would have been fatally injured by the head shot her heart may well have beat for a few minutes after this. I know Jake on this forum is an emergency room doctor. Maybe if she sees this she could run us through the time possibilities. I think she has done this before but I have forgotten what it was she said. Maybe someone on here remembers what she said. I know there was a long discussion about possibilities. Obviously RS's heart would have stopped fairly quickly due to loss of blood and blood pressure but she was still gurgling when she was laid on the floor downstairs. That would have to have been up to 10 minutes after being shot if the fatal shots were fired around 03.16. I know in animals there are recorded incidences of the heart beating for another 17 minutes after fatal head wounds but RS also had a severed artery in her upper arm and severe injuries to her thigh.

A limiting factor on heartbeat is that we know Reeva stopped breathing virtually immediately.

The heart can keep beating for some minutes after loss of breathing and loss of brain function. But it does need oxygen.

If we place the S spray somewhere around 3:22 - it is therefore much more likely that Reeva was shot at 3:15 than at 3:12

 

[Tortoise]

the op explanation about the bedroom door damage was real nonsense.
the second bedroom door wasn't even unlocked at the bottom.

i posted on this - and the type of lock - way back during the trial.

It was. If I had been on a jury and a defendant said that I would not have been able to stop myself from laughing out loud. It does make me laugh, the way he said it with as much conviction as he could muster. It was like a 3 year old lying. Then my lady...I ran into the door and tried to shoulder barge it open, and then I unlatched it.

What was that other time in the trial when everyone burst out laughing and Nel had to apologise to the Judge? I'll have to try and remember that one.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I'm interested in the key he left in the lock on the outside of the toilet door.

I think the key was on the inside lock earlier when OP was hitting the door with the cricket bat. I think Reeva locked it. Then I think she came out of the toilet after he went back to the bedroom, and that is when she chanced to get her jeans and her phone. He had his gun in his hands by that time and was blocking her from leaving through the bedroom door. As she turned with her back to him, bent over slightly to put a foot into one of the legs of her jeans he hit her on the back with the gun handle. So I think she ran, screaming, with her jeans in her hands back to the bathroom and when she heard him chasing after her she screamed louder and threw her jeans out of the window, before dashing back into the toilet. I think he shot her immediately and she was still closing the door, never getting the chance to lock it.

So why did he move the key?

After breaking out all the panels he realised that the police would ask why he hadn't just removed one panel and turned the key from the inside to unlock the door. So he moved the key and invented the story about it having been on the floor.

Roux says it wasn't strange that she would have locked the door for her own safety. OK, but then there is no explanation at all for her taking the key out of the lock, as Oscar's story says she must have done.

could the key have been knocked out by the vibrations caused when the bat was striking the other side of the door?

or she could have just finished locking the door, and the key was between the grip of her fingers and the lock. the key could then be dislodged from of the lock as she fell backwards. which would explain why she was close to the door.

 

[mrjitty]

The process of death had already started when Stipp examined her even though she may still have been gurgling (earlier) as was stated by Miss Stander, I believe. Gurgling can only occur with breathing so if Miss Stander was correct, Reeva was still breathing, possibly very weakly, at the time she was first laid at the bottom of the stairs. I don't think Stipp arrived until a few minutes after the Standers and Reeva was obviously beyond help when he examined her.

The only other reason I can think of, if Reeva did gurgle, is that when OP laid her down there was some compression of her chest which might have expelled air from her lungs and caused the sounds.

There was no breathing - per the clinical evidence

IMO this was a marble dropped by the accused.

The only way he could have seen the gurgling is if he saw Reeva directly after the shots.

Basically only the murderer can have seen this.

 

[mrjitty]

The process of death had already started when Stipp examined her even though she may still have been gurgling (earlier) as was stated by Miss Stander, I believe. Gurgling can only occur with breathing so if Miss Stander was correct, Reeva was still breathing, possibly very weakly, at the time she was first laid at the bottom of the stairs. I don't think Stipp arrived until a few minutes after the Standers and Reeva was obviously beyond help when he examined her.

The only other reason I can think of, if Reeva did gurgle, is that when OP laid her down there was some compression of her chest which might have expelled air from her lungs and caused the sounds.

There was no breathing - per the clinical evidence

IMO this was a marble dropped by the accused.

The only way he could have seen the gurgling is if he saw Reeva directly after the shots.

Basically only the murderer can have seen this.

 

[Tortoise]

could the key have been knocked out by the vibrations caused when the bat was striking the other side of the door?

or she could have just finished locking the door, and the key was between the grip of her fingers and the lock. the key could then be dislodged from of the lock as she fell backwards. which would explain why she was close to the door.

I don't buy his explanation that it was on the floor.

He wouldn't have been able to pick it up from standing in the bathroom. Its another Pistoryus story.

 

[mhiforme]

I don't know what your expectation are - but it can take months to get appeal decisions in complex commercial cases!

This isn't a commercial case.

 

[foxbluff]

What was that other time in the trial when everyone burst out laughing and Nel had to apologise to the Judge? I'll have to try and remember that one.

RSBM: I remember a good one!! There was a mock-up of the WC on display in the Courtroom when one of the expert (?DT) witnesses stood behind the WC door to represent Reeva. Everybody burst out laughing when he explained the obvious by saying something like "ok... you can't see me now because I'm behind the door."

 

[foxbluff]

That could also be what's causing the delay in the COA's response if there's no definitive road map in the legislation dealing with a decision needing to be sent back to the trial judge who is no longer sitting.

I hope it doesn't cause a delay!!! IDK, but would guess that her retirement wouldn't preclude her from taking the bench to finish up OP's case. (In the States, sometimes retired judges are even called back to the bench to hear new cases, iirc.)

 

[Deleted member 102539]

https://www.the-newshub.com/interna...-but-this-is-not-the-first-time-he-has-served

Oscar Pistorius reported for community service today but this is not the first time he has served


Schultz is the free South African killer, who made a deal with the South African State Prosecutors following the killing of Brett Kebble, a prominent South African mining magnate. Schultz, the trigger-man was given his freedom in exchange for testifying against Glenn Agliotti who was accused of masterminding the killing of Kebble in 2010.

As Oscar takes his first tentative steps back into the world, Schultz, a notorious underworld figure and a self-confessed killer walks the streets of South Africa. In an upside-down world, this man who repeatedly tried to kill Kebble, is legally entitled to carry firearms in South Africa and is considered less guilty than Oscar.
:laugh::innocent: :tears:

 

[lithgow1]

RSBM: I remember a good one!! There was a mock-up of the WC on display in the Courtroom when one of the expert (?DT) witnesses stood behind the WC door to represent Reeva. Everybody burst out laughing when he explained the obvious by saying something like "ok... you can't see me now because I'm behind the door."

There is this one, which I don't recall. I am sure there was another one involving Nel (as per Tortoise) so will see if I can find it.

Prosecutor Gerrie Nel caused laughter during Oscar Pistorius’s murder trial in the High Court in Pretoria on Wednesday when his iPad began chattering.

A woman speaking with an American accent was heard from his iPad as he was addressing Judge Thokozile Masipa. He had just told her he was not going to re-examine Colonel Mike Sale, who downloaded data from two iPads found in Pistorius’s home.

“I’m so sorry, My Lady,” a red faced Nel said, handing the iPad to a colleague sitting behind him. He explained that it was a recording of an argument unrelated to the case.

Once the laughter had died down, Nel added: “I have strict instructions not to touch anything or press any buttons.”

http://citizen.co.za/146582/nel-causes-laughter-court-oscar-trial/