Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #66~ the appeal~

[JudgeJudi]

Personally speaking, I find this 3-hour guided tour quite outrageous. This is for the benefit of the public to show that OP didn’t have his own cooking facilities, gym equipment etc.

Karyn Maughan ‏@karynmaughan · 2h2 hours ago
First time that correctional services has allowed such a detailed tour of Kgosi Mampuru prison. It'll be 3 hours long

Does anyone seriously believe these journos are here for any reason other than to see OP's cell?

The prisons in SA are horrendous places for most of its inmates. Once again, this is all about OP, and showing that he is special, special enough to take the media on a 3-hour jaunt to dispel rumours.

Why haven’t the media been in that prison before to highlight how the majority are suffering from the shockingly overcrowded conditions, lack of facilities, how severely disabled people can be left to their own devices as to how they get about even if it means dragging themselves along the ground and not given an opportunity to get the much needed medical attention they so desperately need.

 

[LemonMousse]

Personally speaking, I find this 3-hour guided tour quite outrageous. This is for the benefit of the public to show that OP didn’t have his own cooking facilities, gym equipment etc. The prisons in SA are horrendous places for most of its inmates. Once again, this is all about OP, and showing that he is special, special enough to take the media on a 3-hour jaunt to dispel rumours.

Why haven’t the media been in that prison before to highlight how the majority are suffering from the shockingly overcrowded conditions, lack of facilities, how severely disabled people can be left to their own devices as to how they get about even if it means dragging themselves along the ground and not given an opportunity to get the much needed medical attention they so desperately need.

Completely agree.

Mind you...I feel a bit bad for saying "Good, it looks grim". That's because I hate Pistorius and feel that a chamber in the sewer would be too good for him.

But the more sensible part of me does not think it's good for any prisoner to be in unpleasant conditions. The punishment is going to prison & the loss of liberty that entails.....not having to live in discomfort and squalor while you're in there.

Just to clarify.

 

[L2L]

6 new judgements just handed down for Nov.30. SCA Judgements 2015

 

[Val1]

Completely agree.

Mind you...I feel a bit bad for saying "Good, it looks grim". That's because I hate Pistorius and feel that a chamber in the sewer would be too good for him.

But the more sensible part of me does not think it's good for any prisoner to be in unpleasant conditions. The punishment is going to prison & the loss of liberty that entails.....not having to live in discomfort and squalor while you're in there.

Just to clarify.

I'm rather torn on that. I strongly believe that prisoners that are in prison for committing acts against innocents in society should not have more luxuries than the poorest person has in that society. How many people in SA don't have a roof over their head, let alone a bed to sleep in, sheets, curtains, handicap equipped tub, etc etc., oh and free food. Sure the quality may not be what OP is accustomed to, but there are people that don't have any of any of that.

 

[Val1]

This might work. It does look grim.

https://twitter.com/karynmaughan/with_replies

PS Thought the image might post but it didn't but if you scroll down through that link you will see it.

Is there a problem with this link?

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/media-tour-pistorius-krejcir-prison-cells-20151201

 

[JudgeJudi]

Sorry for the duplicated paras. in my last post. Fixed now.

 

[L2L]

Is there a problem with this link?

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/media-tour-pistorius-krejcir-prison-cells-20151201

All good ! Thank You!

 

[lithgow1]

I'm rather torn on that. I strongly believe that prisoners that are in prison for committing acts against innocents in society should not have more luxuries than the poorest person has in that society. How many people in SA don't have a roof over their head, let alone a bed to sleep in, sheets, curtains, handicap equipped tub, etc etc., oh and free food. Sure the quality may not be what OP is accustomed to, but there are people that don't have any of any of that.

I agree. I currently live in the Balkans and there are people from here who are in prison in the Netherlands for committing sustained war crimes who have a much better standard of living than the majority of the people who live here. Yes they are not free, but they have cooking facilities, recreation rooms, comfy cells. When you see old people looking through dumpsters, it galls that war criminals never need to worry about their next meal or the heating bill. I realise this is an extreme case, and I am not a vengeful person and do believe prison should be for rehabilitation as well as punishment, but in terms of violent crimes for which the perpetrator will never be realised, then so long as they are fed and housed, then I don't see why they should get much more in the way of 'perks'. If this all sounds a little conflicted that's because like you I am somewhat torn on where punishment should end and compassion start. I would almost need to consider it on a case by case basis and in this case, IMO OP falls somewhere in the middle range. Were he honest, the compassion meter would start to rise!

 

[LemonMousse]

I'm rather torn on that. I strongly believe that prisoners that are in prison for committing acts against innocents in society should not have more luxuries than the poorest person has in that society. How many people in SA don't have a roof over their head, let alone a bed to sleep in, sheets, curtains, handicap equipped tub, etc etc., oh and free food. Sure the quality may not be what OP is accustomed to, but there are people that don't have any of any of that.

Yes. I think it's one of those issues that it's easy to feel torn about.

Of course, no one has the right to expect luxury living if they go to prison, but I think that if the state takes control of your life, it has a duty to act in a humane way and not force anyone into squalid conditions.

But that's academic....that cell looks a bit grim, but hardly inhumane. Apart from the bars at the window, it looks a bit like my old boarding school bedroom!

Barry Bateman has more pics...including the famous adapted bath!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Completely agree.

Mind you...I feel a bit bad for saying "Good, it looks grim". That's because I hate Pistorius and feel that a chamber in the sewer would be too good for him.

But the more sensible part of me does not think it's good for any prisoner to be in unpleasant conditions. The punishment is going to prison & the loss of liberty that entails.....not having to live in discomfort and squalor while you're in there.

Just to clarify.

I don't expect prisons to be hotels away from home but when you read this ...

"In the rest of the prison, more than 50 inmates share cells designed for 30 and share one toilet and basin. Pistorius’s high profile and disability mean he escaped such indignities, he added".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...w-bed-and-bath-in-prison-in-South-Africa.html

... I find it most disturbing. I'll never forget the story of that disabled man. At least he's out now, has a wheelchair and he's also fitted with one of those ankle bracelets/monitors.

"The 50-year-old Fakude, who is paralysed from the waist down, has spent the past 15 months in Bloemfontein's Grootvlei prison facing fraud charges. He shares a cell designed for 32 with 87 other men; has to wear nappies brought in by his family; and is forced to drag himself around on crutches without the use of a wheelchair".

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/08/south-africa-disability-prison

It's beyond shocking. OP had no reason whatsoever IMO to complain about anything.

 

[Trotterly]

Yes. I think it's one of those issues that it's easy to feel torn about.

Of course, no one has the right to expect luxury living if they go to prison, but I think that if the state takes control of your life, it has a duty to act in a humane way and not force anyone into squalid conditions.

But that's academic....that cell looks a bit grim, but hardly inhumane. Apart from the bars at the window, it looks a bit like my old boarding school bedroom!

Barry Bateman has more pics...including the famous adapted bath!

Horrible curtains.

 

[Tortoise]

I can't work out what that is on the bed. Looks like a shredded teddy bear or a barristers wig.

 

[K.T]

So, are we going to hear the result this week??! That would be amazing. Whatever the result I hope for the sake of trust in the legal system that it is well written, logical and sane. Justice seen to be done and all of that, clarity is good...
I thought that Masipa's writing on the firearm possession charges were as confusing as the incoherent DE statements.

"A senior official at the SCA has told Eyewitness News that the Pistorius judgment has already been written up.

It's now for the judges to meet one last time, to discuss it before it's handed down.

The officials believe that this will probably happen before the end of the week."


http://ewn.co.za/2015/11/30/SCA-to-rule-on-Oscar-Pistorius-conviction-appeal

 

[Jake18]

DD is not at issue due to the factual findings.

However the SC can make any statement about DD that it likes.

Personally I don't understand the fascination with the DD/DE thing. It's murder either way, and DE murders can be "bad"murders.

See for example the case of Jubjub (reduced to CH on appeal).

OP will be at the low end of murder no matter what - due to the judges factual findings.

I think this is because you're not approaching the case as a layperson.

Even when waiting for the original verdict David Dadic tweeted that the word in legal corridors is that OP would get 10-15 years thus inferring DE rather than DD- doesn't DD have a minimum of 25 years? Also, right at the beginning of the original verdict when Masipa threw out the screams as being female but also seemed to go against PDD (who knows what she was really doing, this is before the remainder of the verdict sent most of us down the rabbit hole where some of us also drank whisky) by not allowing him to be more fearful because of his disability etc Judge Greenland commented at the time that Nel would have been reasonably pleased with how things were going. Personally I was reeling at the screams being thrown out but I now see that JG thought that Masipa was also dismissing PDD and thus DE was to follow. A lot of Nel's prosecuting tactics were aimed at emphasising that OP wasn't under threat; I don't think he'd have been upset by not getting DD in the first instance, given that there were no eye witnesses and Reeva was shot through a shut door. Which isn't to say that some judges wouldn't have given DD, JG would have and I get the impression that Leach would have too, but we shall see.

So, people with a legal background seem focused on whether murder was proved and whether there was enough to get OP convicted and appropriately punished.

However, for someone like me without a legal background the sheer audacity of his ridiculous defence (Reeva was "scared" of her feelings for him, OP screaming stealthy down corridors, the 4th shot coincidentally being the one that killed her, him not breaking down the door for minutes yet still seeing her terminal breaths and a non-breathing, incapacitated Reeva still having sufficient cardiac output for arterial spray in spite of also bleeding out so badly her heart and liver were pale on post mortem, Reeva not saying a single word in spite of being slaughtered in the toilet, the fan dance he claimed to have done to have brought them in without actually seeing her in the bed, him sleeping in spite of phone evidence to the contrary, the way in which his reported last meal with her was tailored to resemble her stomach contents even though after 8 hours or so there'd be nothing in her stomach at all, the grouping of his shots which were supposed to be "random") just makes me angry. I wanted there to be an epiphanic moment like there is on TV trials where he realises he's been caught out, confesses and everyone knows the truth. Which was never ever going to happen given his personality, entitlement, acting lessons and coaching.

I suppose the lawyers have moved beyond hope or expectation that murderers will confess and instead aim for what they can realistically get. Nel will consider DE a victory, I'm sure.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I think this is because you're not approaching the case as a layperson.

Even when waiting for the original verdict David Dadic tweeted that the word in legal corridors is that OP would get 10-15 years thus inferring DE rather than DD- doesn't DD have a minimum of 25 years? Also, right at the beginning of the original verdict when Masipa threw out the screams as being female but also seemed to go against PDD (who knows what she was really doing, this is before the remainder of the verdict sent most of us down the rabbit hole where some of us also drank whisky) by not allowing him to be more fearful because of his disability etc Judge Greenland commented at the time that Nel would have been reasonably pleased with how things were going. Personally I was reeling at the screams being thrown out but I now see that JG thought that Masipa was also dismissing PDD and thus DE was to follow. A lot of Nel's prosecuting tactics were aimed at emphasising that OP wasn't under threat; I don't think he'd have been upset by not getting DD in the first instance, given that there were no eye witnesses and Reeva was shot through a shut door. Which isn't to say that some judges wouldn't have given DD, JG would have and I get the impression that Leach would have too, but we shall see.

So, people with a legal background seem focused on whether murder was proved and whether there was enough to get OP convicted and appropriately punished.

However, for someone like me without a legal background the sheer audacity of his ridiculous defence (Reeva was "scared" of her feelings for him, OP screaming stealthy down corridors, the 4th shot coincidentally being the one that killed her, him not breaking down the door for minutes yet still seeing her terminal breaths and a non-breathing, incapacitated Reeva still having sufficient cardiac output for arterial spray in spite of also bleeding out so badly her heart and liver were pale on post mortem, Reeva not saying a single word in spite of being slaughtered in the toilet, the fan dance he claimed to have done to have brought them in without actually seeing her in the bed, him sleeping in spite of phone evidence to the contrary, the way in which his reported last meal with her was tailored to resemble her stomach contents even though after 8 hours or so there'd be nothing in her stomach at all, the grouping of his shots which were supposed to be "random") just makes me angry. I wanted there to be an epiphanic moment like there is on TV trials where he realises he's been caught out, confesses and everyone knows the truth. Which was never ever going to happen given his personality, entitlement, acting lessons and coaching.

I suppose the lawyers have moved beyond hope or expectation that murderers will confess and instead aim for what they can realistically get. Nel will consider DE a victory, I'm sure.

:goodpost:
I am coming from the same place as you.

 

[Tortoise]

I think this is because you're not approaching the case as a layperson.

Even when waiting for the original verdict David Dadic tweeted that the word in legal corridors is that OP would get 10-15 years thus inferring DE rather than DD- doesn't DD have a minimum of 25 years? Also, right at the beginning of the original verdict when Masipa threw out the screams as being female but also seemed to go against PDD (who knows what she was really doing, this is before the remainder of the verdict sent most of us down the rabbit hole where some of us also drank whisky) by not allowing him to be more fearful because of his disability etc Judge Greenland commented at the time that Nel would have been reasonably pleased with how things were going. Personally I was reeling at the screams being thrown out but I now see that JG thought that Masipa was also dismissing PDD and thus DE was to follow. A lot of Nel's prosecuting tactics were aimed at emphasising that OP wasn't under threat; I don't think he'd have been upset by not getting DD in the first instance, given that there were no eye witnesses and Reeva was shot through a shut door. Which isn't to say that some judges wouldn't have given DD, JG would have and I get the impression that Leach would have too, but we shall see.

So, people with a legal background seem focused on whether murder was proved and whether there was enough to get OP convicted and appropriately punished.

However, for someone like me without a legal background the sheer audacity of his ridiculous defence (Reeva was "scared" of her feelings for him, OP screaming stealthy down corridors, the 4th shot coincidentally being the one that killed her, him not breaking down the door for minutes yet still seeing her terminal breaths and a non-breathing, incapacitated Reeva still having sufficient cardiac output for arterial spray in spite of also bleeding out so badly her heart and liver were pale on post mortem, Reeva not saying a single word in spite of being slaughtered in the toilet, the fan dance he claimed to have done to have brought them in without actually seeing her in the bed, him sleeping in spite of phone evidence to the contrary, the way in which his reported last meal with her was tailored to resemble her stomach contents even though after 8 hours or so there'd be nothing in her stomach at all, the grouping of his shots which were supposed to be "random") just makes me angry. I wanted there to be an epiphanic moment like there is on TV trials where he realises he's been caught out, confesses and everyone knows the truth. Which was never ever going to happen given his personality, entitlement, acting lessons and coaching.

I suppose the lawyers have moved beyond hope or expectation that murderers will confess and instead aim for what they can realistically get. Nel will consider DE a victory, I'm sure.

:goodpost:

very well said.

 

[mrjitty]

I think this is because you're not approaching the case as a layperson.

Even when waiting for the original verdict David Dadic tweeted that the word in legal corridors is that OP would get 10-15 years thus inferring DE rather than DD- doesn't DD have a minimum of 25 years? Also, right at the beginning of the original verdict when Masipa threw out the screams as being female but also seemed to go against PDD (who knows what she was really doing, this is before the remainder of the verdict sent most of us down the rabbit hole where some of us also drank whisky) by not allowing him to be more fearful because of his disability etc Judge Greenland commented at the time that Nel would have been reasonably pleased with how things were going. Personally I was reeling at the screams being thrown out but I now see that JG thought that Masipa was also dismissing PDD and thus DE was to follow. A lot of Nel's prosecuting tactics were aimed at emphasising that OP wasn't under threat; I don't think he'd have been upset by not getting DD in the first instance, given that there were no eye witnesses and Reeva was shot through a shut door. Which isn't to say that some judges wouldn't have given DD, JG would have and I get the impression that Leach would have too, but we shall see.

So, people with a legal background seem focused on whether murder was proved and whether there was enough to get OP convicted and appropriately punished.

However, for someone like me without a legal background the sheer audacity of his ridiculous defence (Reeva was "scared" of her feelings for him, OP screaming stealthy down corridors, the 4th shot coincidentally being the one that killed her, him not breaking down the door for minutes yet still seeing her terminal breaths and a non-breathing, incapacitated Reeva still having sufficient cardiac output for arterial spray in spite of also bleeding out so badly her heart and liver were pale on post mortem, Reeva not saying a single word in spite of being slaughtered in the toilet, the fan dance he claimed to have done to have brought them in without actually seeing her in the bed, him sleeping in spite of phone evidence to the contrary, the way in which his reported last meal with her was tailored to resemble her stomach contents even though after 8 hours or so there'd be nothing in her stomach at all, the grouping of his shots which were supposed to be "random") just makes me angry. I wanted there to be an epiphanic moment like there is on TV trials where he realises he's been caught out, confesses and everyone knows the truth. Which was never ever going to happen given his personality, entitlement, acting lessons and coaching.

I suppose the lawyers have moved beyond hope or expectation that murderers will confess and instead aim for what they can realistically get. Nel will consider DE a victory, I'm sure.

Yes

He will consider DE a victory for sure.

I guess I am approaching the case from a technical standpoint.

DE should never have been an issue.

Direct (DD) or oblique (DE) intent is effectively implied in a self defence pleading (the decision to use lethal force), and of course with these facts (4 shots/small space)

One way or the other he knew "the person" might be killed.

The real question is one of justification.

But I see you point - that DD is some kind of "proxy" for deliberate intent to kill Reeva

BTW - there is no special sentence for DD. Murder by DD or DE is the same result.

 

[Estelle]

I don't know if this has been posted before but Pistorius is spending only two days a month carrying out menial tasks ‘out of the public eye’, a magazine reported.

Supervised by warrant officer Henriette Gouws, Pistorius spent his first community shift mopping the floors of holding cells at Garsfontein police station, a short drive from his uncle’s palatial villa.

A source told South Africa’s You magazine: ‘He is doing work where he won’t be seen by members of the community. He has to sweep and mop floors and do odd jobs.’

The star of the London Olympics was described as ‘willing to help and work’ by the source who observed him clearing out a station store room where documents and exhibits are held.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...conviction-replaced-murder.html#ixzz3t4J4tRWi
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Jake18]

Yes

He will consider DE a victory for sure.

I guess I am approaching the case from a technical standpoint.

DE should never have been an issue.

Direct (DD) or oblique (DE) intent is effectively implied in a self defence pleading (the decision to use lethal force), and of course with these facts (4 shots/small space)

One way or the other he knew "the person" might be killed.

The real question is one of justification.

But I see you point - that DD is some kind of "proxy" for deliberate intent to kill Reeva

BTW - there is no special sentence for DD. Murder by DD or DE is the same result.

Yep, that's it. But I can see intellectually that a verdict of murder is the desired outcome, whatever the flavour.

 

[saraomar]

BIB, OP's pain will be equal to the Steenkamps, they'll all have to live with it for the rest of their lives.

The reality though is that with the Steenkamp's age and health, they may not be on earth for much longer but OP will have to endure this for maybe another 50 years or so. That is sad. No one wins.

What a ridiculous, callous statement to make! There is absolutely no comparison!

I think we must all have dreamt OP being out and about, clubbing, getting drunk and into fights, hitting on women, going uninvited to parties...... because he was enduring the pain!??! And lest we forget, this was 6 weeks after he killed her!

He killed their CHILD, there is no way anyone else can feel what they must feel!