Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #66~ the appeal~

[sleuth-d-]

Thanks for the interception, Interested Bystander-- you expressed my thoughts perfectly, only more succinctly than I ever could have managed.

But nonetheless, I will try to honestly answer Noisy Fan's question, because accidents do happen (just not in Oscar's case, IMO) and one always thinks of some variation on the phrase "there but for the grace of God go I."

If I accidentally shot and killed a loved one, I believe I would be so deeply traumatized and guilt-ridden that I would throw myself on the mercy of the court and just hope for a cell with at least a small window where I could serve out my sentence in penitence. It's hard to imagine life would be worth living. But I know people do recover from such experiences and move forward. It's horrible to even consider being in that situation. I would imagine it would be hard to emerge from such a traumatic experience for at least 3 years, but who knows? But I think that an appropriate sentence for the kind of negligence exhibited in Oscar's "version" would be 3 to 5 years of a custodial sentence and with several years of community service after that.

Note: I am pretty sure I would not feel like going out to clubs and hitting on other members of the opposite sex anytime too soon after the "accident."

using oscar's version the first thing i would do... having realised it was reeva inside the toilet - and that the door was locked - would be to phone for an ambulance.

once the ambulance was on the way, then would be the time to fetch the bat and try breaking the door down.
oh, and shout for frank to come up and help.
oh, and press the panic button to get security over.

note: he didn't do any of these things.

also, once he realised his tragic mistake, why didn't he immediately try talking to her to see if she could speak back, to ascertain her injuries?

 

[mhiforme]

using oscar's version the first thing i would do... having realised it was reeva inside the toilet - and that the door was locked - would be to phone for an ambulance.

once the ambulance was on the way, then would be the time to fetch the bat and try breaking the door down.
oh, and shout for frank to come up and help.
oh, and press the panic button to get security over.

note: he didn't do any of these things.

also, once he realised his tragic mistake, why didn't he immediately try talking to her to see if she could speak back, to ascertain her injuries?

BIB

According to his testimony, he didn't realize it was Reeva in the toilet until after he broke down the door so it would be impossible for him to "fetch the bat and try breaking the door down" after calling the ambulance.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

https://twitter.com/hashtag/Justice4Reeva?src=hash

 

[Marfa Lights]

BIB

According to his testimony, he didn't realize it was Reeva in the toilet until after he broke down the door so it would be impossible for him to "fetch the bat and try breaking the door down" after calling the ambulance.

Well, don't you think he realized it was SOMEONE laying dead or mortally wounded behind the door??

It's such a strong impulse to immediately dial 911 (or the local equivalent) whenever there is an emergency... it's just the first thing you would do if you were concerned for their welfare.

And yes, there is still that curious question of why you would call a neighbor to come help carry the body downstairs when your live-in house servant was right downstairs.

All excellent points made by Sleuth-d.

 

[soozieqtips]

Well, don't you think he realized it was SOMEONE laying dead or mortally wounded behind the door??

It's such a strong impulse to immediately dial 911 (or the local equivalent) whenever there is an emergency... it's just the first thing you would do if you were concerned for their welfare.

And yes, there is still that curious question of why you would call a neighbor to come help carry the body downstairs when your live-in house servant was right downstairs.

All excellent points made by Sleuth-d.

BIB - exactly. And if you wanted to make sure they had zero chance of survival, you'd do what OP did. Phone a friend instead of an ambulance. There are still all the lies he told about the Standers telling him to 'put Reeva down' because an ambulance had been called - when we all know that no ambulance was called until Dr Stipp asked Stander if he had called one, and Stander said 'no'. Stipp then asked Stander to call one (which he did). So by the time Stipp arrived, OP hadn't called an ambulance, Stander hadn't called an ambulance, and neither had his daughter. Wasn't it Carice who said she 'hoped' it didn't get to the media? It seems that avoiding negative publicity was more important than getting help for Reeva.

 

[Colin de France]

.....why you would call a neighbor to come help carry the body downstairs when your live-in house servant was right downstairs.

......the question is.... why carry the body downstairs in anycase ?

 

[Interested Bystander]

Thanks for the interception, Interested Bystander-- you expressed my thoughts perfectly, only more succinctly than I ever could have managed.

But nonetheless, I will try to honestly answer Noisy Fan's question, because accidents do happen (just not in Oscar's case, IMO) and one always thinks of some variation on the phrase "there but for the grace of God go I."

If I accidentally shot and killed a loved one, I believe I would be so deeply traumatized and guilt-ridden that I would throw myself on the mercy of the court and just hope for a cell with at least a small window where I could serve out my sentence in penitence. It's hard to imagine life would be worth living. But I know people do recover from such experiences and move forward. It's horrible to even consider being in that situation. I would imagine it would be hard to emerge from such a traumatic experience for at least 3 years, but who knows? But I think that an appropriate sentence for the kind of negligence exhibited in Oscar's "version" would be 3 to 5 years of a custodial sentence and with several years of community service after that.

Note: I am pretty sure I would not feel like going out to clubs and hitting on other members of the opposite sex anytime too soon after the "accident."

Apologies for suggesting that you may not interact. I was venting my frustration (as was quite obvious) at the suggestion that this was an accident.

Like others say, the logical thing to do would be to have asked Frank who was only feet/seconds away. I keep asking myself why did he need to ring Stander when there was somebody already in the house? I really don't believe Frank knows nothing. I hope one day he will "fess up" to what really happened. The police who interviewed him were of the opinion he was hiding something. Frank quite obviously heard something because he was standing outside OP's front door, fully dressed, before Stander arrived. I have always thought Nel should have put him on the stand and tried to break his story.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Thanks for the interception, Interested Bystander-- you expressed my thoughts perfectly, only more succinctly than I ever could have managed.

But nonetheless, I will try to honestly answer Noisy Fan's question, because accidents do happen (just not in Oscar's case, IMO) and one always thinks of some variation on the phrase "there but for the grace of God go I."

If I accidentally shot and killed a loved one, I believe I would be so deeply traumatized and guilt-ridden that I would throw myself on the mercy of the court and just hope for a cell with at least a small window where I could serve out my sentence in penitence. It's hard to imagine life would be worth living. But I know people do recover from such experiences and move forward. It's horrible to even consider being in that situation. I would imagine it would be hard to emerge from such a traumatic experience for at least 3 years, but who knows? But I think that an appropriate sentence for the kind of negligence exhibited in Oscar's "version" would be 3 to 5 years of a custodial sentence and with several years of community service after that.

Note: I am pretty sure I would not feel like going out to clubs and hitting on other members of the opposite sex anytime too soon after the "accident."

BIB

This was around 6 weeks after killing Reeva if I remember correctly.

 

[JudgeJudi]

BIB - exactly. And if you wanted to make sure they had zero chance of survival, you'd do what OP did. Phone a friend instead of an ambulance. There are still all the lies he told about the Standers telling him to 'put Reeva down' because an ambulance had been called - when we all know that no ambulance was called until Dr Stipp asked Stander if he had called one, and Stander said 'no'. Stipp then asked Stander to call one (which he did). So by the time Stipp arrived, OP hadn't called an ambulance, Stander hadn't called an ambulance, and neither had his daughter. Wasn't it Carice who said she 'hoped' it didn't get to the media? It seems that avoiding negative publicity was more important than getting help for Reeva.

It was actually Mrs Stander who said, "I hope this doesn't get out into the media". I mean really? An innocent young woman has been gunned down and her first thought is this? Protect the man who killed her!

What sort of people behave like this? The same sort who comfort the killer.

Neither Aimee nor Carl bothered to ring Reeva's parents to tell them what happened. This has got to be one of the most heartless, insensitive, callous things I've heard of. If they couldn't ... for whatever reason ... make that call, why didn't they arrange for Oldwadge or the police to make it immediately.

 

[Interested Bystander]

using oscar's version the first thing i would do... having realised it was reeva inside the toilet - and that the door was locked - would be to phone for an ambulance.

once the ambulance was on the way, then would be the time to fetch the bat and try breaking the door down.
oh, and shout for frank to come up and help.
oh, and press the panic button to get security over.

note: he didn't do any of these things.

also, once he realised his tragic mistake, why didn't he immediately try talking to her to see if she could speak back, to ascertain her injuries?

BIB Very strange this point. In a real accident one might have expected him to ask her something as soon as he realised she was behind the door and before breaking it down, ie Reeva, "are you badly hurt"? At that stage he had no idea he had hit her in the head or what her injuries were and she might have been able to communicate something.

Immediately after the shooting, he never called out to her at any point to see if indeed it was her in the toilet cubicle. He never called to ask where she was. She could have been on the balcony or have left the house for safety reasons. She knew how to set/unset the alarm. The more one thinks about his alibi, the more unbelievable it becomes.

It is a fact that at 20-22 minutes elapsed after the shooting (on his timing) he had called nobody at all. The Stipps heard the first sounds (according to OP the gunshots) at 02.58. His call to Stander was 20-22 minutes or so later. (Apologies I don't have Mr Fossi'ls spread sheet to hand to verify when he called Stander). If his story were to believed, he did almost nothing for around 18 minutes. Surely it should have been obvious to Masipa et al that this must be a lie. Who would leave the love of their life shut in a small cubicle behind closed doors not knowing what her injuries were? Who on earth would believe it took circa 18 minutes (the timing to the second sounds) to collect the bat and break down the door. His alibi is just so unbelievable and yet Masipa fell for it.

 

[soozieqtips]

It was actually Mrs Stander who said, "I hope this doesn't get out into the media". I mean really? An innocent young woman has been gunned down and her first thought is this? Protect the man who killed her!

What sort of people behave like this? The same sort who comfort the killer.

Neither Aimee nor Carl bothered to ring Reeva's parents to tell them what happened. This has got to be one of the most heartless, insensitive, callous things I've heard of. If they couldn't ... for whatever reason ... make that call, why didn't they arrange for Oldwadge or the police to make it immediately.

BIB - Wasn't Oldwage preoccupied with retrieving a USB stick from OP's kitchen safe? Or was that another of his team? Either way, getting a locksmith to open the safe was a bigger priority than letting Reeva's parents know she had been killed.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I have had to reformat my computer in the last few days and I have lost some important links. Please, does anyone have the links to Mr Fossil's spreadsheets with all the timings?

 

[Colin de France]

BIB Very strange this point. In a real accident one might have expected him to ask her something as soon as he realised she was behind the door and before breaking it down, ie Reeva, "are you badly hurt"? At that stage he had no idea he had hit her in the head or what her injuries were and she might have been able to communicate something.

Immediately after the shooting, he never called out to her at any point to see if indeed it was her in the toilet cubicle. He never called to ask where she was. She could have been on the balcony or have left the house for safety reasons. She knew how to set/unset the alarm. The more one thinks about his alibi, the more unbelievable it becomes.

It is a fact that at 20-22 minutes elapsed after the shooting (on his timing) he had called nobody at all. The Stipps heard the first sounds (according to OP the gunshots) at 02.58. His call to Stander was 20-22 minutes or so later. (Apologies I don't have Mr Fossi'ls spread sheet to hand to verify when he called Stander). If his story were to believed, he did almost nothing for around 18 minutes. Surely it should have been obvious to Masipa et al that this must be a lie. Who would leave the love of their life shut in a small cubicle behind closed doors not knowing what her injuries were? Who on earth would believe it took circa 18 minutes (the timing to the second sounds) to collect the bat and break down the door. His alibi is just so unbelievable and yet Masipa fell for it.

....he was playing for time until he came up with a version.....

 

[foxbluff]

I have had to reformat my computer in the last few days and I have lost some important links. Please, does anyone have the links to Mr Fossil's spreadsheets with all the timings?

Reformant... yikes !!!

I deleted most of my OP files/links after CH Verdict came in... B - I - G MISTAKE!

I still have a few notes on file... hope the copy/paste below to Mr. Fos's Phone Charts will guide you to where you want to go. (I'm not sure, but if Irrc he incorporated all the timelines of happenings into the phone records. If not, let us know...):

OP TRIAL NOTES - PART II
Sept. 26, 2014 - Posted WS Mr. Fossil on Thread Awaiting Sentencing Phase P.1#5
Thought I'd get the links to these posted again on page 1 of the new thread so they're easy to find:

Phone usage charts (3 tabs, one for each phone)

 

[mhiforme]

Apologies for suggesting that you may not interact. I was venting my frustration (as was quite obvious) at the suggestion that this was an accident.

Like others say, the logical thing to do would be to have asked Frank who was only feet/seconds away. I keep asking myself why did he need to ring Stander when there was somebody already in the house? I really don't believe Frank knows nothing. I hope one day he will "fess up" to what really happened. The police who interviewed him were of the opinion he was hiding something. Frank quite obviously heard something because he was standing outside OP's front door, fully dressed, before Stander arrived. I have always thought Nel should have put him on the stand and tried to break his story.

If Frank was to "fess up" and his version matched that of OP's, I'm pretty sure there would be many on this board that would not be able to accept it and would assume he had been bought off.

 

[mhiforme]

It was actually Mrs Stander who said, "I hope this doesn't get out into the media". I mean really? An innocent young woman has been gunned down and her first thought is this? Protect the man who killed her!

What sort of people behave like this? The same sort who comfort the killer.

Neither Aimee nor Carl bothered to ring Reeva's parents to tell them what happened. This has got to be one of the most heartless, insensitive, callous things I've heard of. If they couldn't ... for whatever reason ... make that call, why didn't they arrange for Oldwadge or the police to make it immediately.

OP isn't a man, he's a brand and all companies protect the brand, that's life. Look at Volkswagen as a very recent example of this.

 

[mhiforme]

BIB - Wasn't Oldwage preoccupied with retrieving a USB stick from OP's kitchen safe? Or was that another of his team? Either way, getting a locksmith to open the safe was a bigger priority than letting Reeva's parents know she had been killed.

I don't believe anyone asked OP why he didn't call Reeva's parents, perhaps he thought the police would do their job and notify the next of kin. Perhaps in all the chaos, OP had other things on his mind then making calls, like trying his best to save Reva

 

[mhiforme]

Well, don't you think he realized it was SOMEONE laying dead or mortally wounded behind the door??

It's such a strong impulse to immediately dial 911 (or the local equivalent) whenever there is an emergency... it's just the first thing you would do if you were concerned for their welfare.

And yes, there is still that curious question of why you would call a neighbor to come help carry the body downstairs when your live-in house servant was right downstairs.

All excellent points made by Sleuth-d.

The point that was raised in the original post was that it was Reva behind the door, now it's changed to someone. There's a difference.

 

[Interested Bystander]

If Frank was to "fess up" and his version matched that of OP's, I'm pretty sure there would be many on this board that would not be able to accept it and would assume he had been bought off.

LOL, we already think something like that may have happened for him not to give evidence. He was on the list and the police did feel he was hiding information.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Many thanks for this. I will see what I can find but the links I really need are in spreadsheets giving the time, as far as can be judged, of the timing of the shots, shouts and screams, calling security etc for every person involved in giving testimony.

Mr Fossil kindly posted the link, I think in the last Discussion Thread (65). I will have to wade through that to find them.