Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #67 *Appeal Verdict*

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Mandy Wiener ‏@MandyWiener
Opinion on what happens to OP now is shifting - lawyers suggesting he will have to be arrested, apply for bail, as sentence was set aside.
 
Mandy Wiener ‏@MandyWiener
Opinion on what happens to OP now is shifting - lawyers suggesting he will have to be arrested, apply for bail, as sentence was set aside.
They'd better hurry up. He's probably packing as we speak.
 
....no you're not being argumentative, maybe i'm not getting across.......i just don't see him as someone who would intentionally kill....there is a big difference between having the intention and not....not only for the person having killed but for the family of the deceased and society as a whole.......if we as humans can't accept that difference then we might as well leave justice to machines......

What do you mean by "intentionally kill"?

I said before that I doubt what he did was premeditated in any significant way. I have never believed that he spent any time actually wanting her dead. And I believe that his horror and distress afterwards was genuine.

This story, sadly, is as old as the hills. A man loses control and kills. This is pretty much what happens in all domestic killings. How many people, really, deliberately throw caution to the wind and decide to risk their own life and liberty by committing murder?

Personally, I think he was scaring her with the gun. She wouldn't come out of the toilet or stop screaming, so he got the gun. I don't think he thought, "Right, I am going to kill her". He lost control, fired and then had to face the horrible, horrible reality of what he'd done.

Did you know that incidents of domestic violence are 700% more likely to end in death when there is a gun in the house? This is not a rare event, unfortunately. And I bet all the family and friends of the shooter said exactly the same thing...."He didn't seem the type to kill".
 
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I said before that I doubt what he did was premeditated in any significant way........ I don't think he thought, "Right, I am going to kill her". He lost control, fired and then had to face the horrible, horrible reality of what he'd done.
......so we are in agreement....the intention to kill makes all the difference....
 
A source at the High Court who is close to Masipa said she grappled for a long time with the point the Court of Appeal ruled she erred on. "It was difficult for her to decide whether it was murder or homicide," the source said. "She really struggled with that and took a long time to make her decision."

The source added that even though OP is now a convicted murderer, he could still be out of prison in just three years. "The maximum is 15 years for unintentional murder, as he has been convicted, he can even get 10 years and eventually only serve 30 per cent, so three years."

In an unusually terse response to the devastating news from the Court of Appeal this morning, the Pistorius family said they had "taken note" but would not comment further.

Criminal law expert Cliff Alexander says he doesn't believe this is the end of the matter. "I don’t think it is the end of it. "I think we might probably, funds depending, see a Constitutional Court challenge on whether he received a fair trial – trial by media so to speak. "There was huge pressure on everybody concerned, whether it affected the outcome of the trial is another story."

OP can appeal to the Constitutional Court on a point of constitutional law, such as a violation of his human rights, and some have suggested he might, on the grounds that the live streaming of his trial and the media glare around the case compromised its fairness.

However, a member of the prosecution team told one of the Telegraph’s reporters earlier this week that both sides could use that tactic. "We could argue that our witnesses were intimidated by the fact the trial was televised and their evidence was compromised," she said. "The defence also never raised that during the trial, and the media did not put the gun in his hand."

It appears that the Judge President of Gauteng will decide whether Judge Masipa or someone else will sentence him.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...188/Oscar-Pistorius-appeal-decision-live.html
 
What do you mean by "intentionally kill"?

I said before that I doubt what he did was premeditated in any significant way. I have never believed that he spent any time actually wanting her dead. And I believe that his horror and distress afterwards was genuine.

This story, sadly, is as old as the hills. A man loses control and kills. This is pretty much what happens in all domestic killings. How many people, really, deliberately throw caution to the wind and decide to risk their own life and liberty by committing murder?

Personally, I think he was scaring her with the gun. She wouldn't come out of the toilet or stop screaming, so he got the gun. I don't think he thought, "Right, I am going to kill her". He lost control, fired and then had to face the horrible, horrible reality of what he'd done.

Did you know that incidents of domestic violence are 700% more likely to end in death when there is a gun in the house? This is not a rare event, unfortunately. And I bet all the family and friends of the shooter said exactly the same thing...."He didn't seem the type to kill".
BIB - and when you remember the ever escalating list of misdemeanours leading up to the murder, it's really not such a leap to think that losing it completely was always a possibility. This was just an extreme extension of his 'normal' behaviour. I do wonder if he'll ever be able to accept he was entirely to blame for what happened. Until he does, there can't be any genuine remorse or empathy for Reeva's family, and maybe that's what they need (as well as the correct verdict) to get peace.
 
Just finished watching the video . . . the deep breath June is taking at the end is heartbreaking :(

Hi All,

I’ll just drop in for a moment to join the cheerful crowd.

It was such a pleasure to hear Judge Leach unravelling all the knots, twists and contradictions in Masipas reasoning. Finally some justice was done :yesss:and a bench of five judges, all of highest reputation, brought back some common sense to a legal matter which was unnecessarily overly complicated by an incompetent judge.
„ I find the reasoning in this passage to be confusing in various respects“.
Says it all how she messed up.:mad:

I’m sure the brilliant Cpt Mangena will be having a glass of Champagne tonight. I pretty much do like the picture of the whole prosecution team gathering tonight for some decent celebration.:toastred: They really do deserve this after all the work they put into this case.

Now trying to catch up with all the good posts and breaking news . . . Hope he will go back to jail TODAY ! :jail:
 
......so we are in agreement....the intention to kill makes all the difference....

Well, we could go all around the houses with this, but no, I disagree.

I am certain that he is guilty of Murder Dolus Directus, knowing that Reeva was behind the door. That he "lost control" is just as bad as deliberate premeditation.

It is likely, as Judge Greenland said, that if Nel had instead pressed for DD, he may well have succeeded today. That's how serious what Pistorius' has done is.

All IMO, of course....I am not a lawyer :)
 
So the convicted murderer could have been found guilty of DD if Nel had put it on the table? I guess it makes little difference now since just about everyone has always thought he knew it was Reeva in the toilet. In his eyes at least, the fact that DD wasn't up for grabs means his shrinking group of adoring fans (weirdos) can continue to live in denial.
 
......so we are in agreement....the intention to kill makes all the difference....


Dolus eventualis is a form of intent in South African law. It is enough to find someone guilty of murder when the perpetrator objectively foresees the possibility of their act causing death and persists regardless of the consequences.
Source: Duhaime's legal dictionary
 
So the convicted murderer could have been found guilty of DD if Nel had put it on the table? I guess it makes little difference now since just about everyone has always thought he knew it was Reeva in the toilet. In his eyes at least, the fact that DD wasn't up for grabs means his shrinking group of adoring fans (weirdos) can continue to live in denial.

There's a certain Pistorian on the other site now claiming they were acting as Devil's Advocate all along!

Sure you were, dear....sure you were ;)
 
Well, I have successfully dodged doing anything productive at home today. But it was worth it. Nel deserves a bucket of medals for his persistence in getting justice for Reeva and her family. None of this will ever lessen the loss of Reeva, not ever - but OP's conviction of actual murder (rather than a reckless 'mistake') makes Reeva the rightful victim, and not that lying cowardly murderer.
 
There's a certain Pistorian on the other site now claiming they were acting as Devil's Advocate all along!

Sure you were, dear....sure you were ;)

Snap - i was just reading the same. Maybe that nonsense will suffice over there as seems to be getting some charitable responses despite 6 months over here mis-interpreting & mis-understanding every legal point then wilfully misquoting and manipulating all the key texts and to top it off correcting posters on typos or missing hyphens.

Like the trial court, an ability to confuse oneself....
 
Well spoken by Greenland *thumbs up*

Though I think for the last part it's a bit unfair to Nel. It's easy to say that in hindsight - but I think Nel went for the safer option DE, not only because it was (relatively)easier to achieve, but also in respect of the Steenkamp familys feelings.
Just imagine he would have gone for DD and failed. Horrible :shocked2:

I sensed some kind of "regret" from Judge Leachs words - but doubt that would be enough to base on for a conviction of DD.
 
So the convicted murderer could have been found guilty of DD if Nel had put it on the table? I guess it makes little difference now since just about everyone has always thought he knew it was Reeva in the toilet. In his eyes at least, the fact that DD wasn't up for grabs means his shrinking group of adoring fans (weirdos) can continue to live in denial.

Yup. I guess he considered it too much of a gamble to go for DD. Too bad. For now I'm just relieved the appeal wasn't overturned.
I'm not liking the part that Oscar might only have to serve 3 yrs.

Interesting that Masipa might not be given this case back for sentencing. Oscar needs to serve the max....in prison.
 
Here are three of Uncle Arnold's quotes:

“As LIGHT destroy DARKNESS
TRUTH will destroy the EVIL.”

“Truth will prevail”

“I know the truth. I know exactly what happened.”

The SCA bench is the light that destroyed the darkness and allowed the truth to destroy the evil.
Truth has finally prevailed.
The judges and nearly everyone who has followed this trial know the truth and exactly what happened.

RIP Reeva.
 

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Barry Bateman Retweeted Anton Katz ‏@AdvAntonKatz 5h5 hours ago
"Oscar's sentence set aside. Convicted of murder. In law he should be in custody pending his sentence. He can apply for bail"
and in reply to others Katz is firm:
@MandyWiener @AlexCrawfordSky "the state may not want to oppose the bail application. But he cannot by law be under house arrest."

(Katz is Advocate, international law, constitutional law, Cape Town)

(In June Mannie Witz said if he doesn't apply for bail alongside an appeal he gets 48 hours to pack his toothbrush. )
 
There's a certain Pistorian on the other site now claiming they were acting as Devil's Advocate all along!

Sure you were, dear....sure you were ;)

Snap - i was just reading the same. Maybe that nonsense will suffice over there as seems to be getting some charitable responses despite 6 months over here mis-interpreting & mis-understanding every legal point then wilfully misquoting and manipulating all the key texts and to top it off correcting posters on typos or missing hyphens.

Like the trial court, an ability to confuse oneself....
Tee hee. Just took a look and all I can say is denial ain't just a river in Egypt!
 
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