Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #69 *Appeal Verdict*

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Case law disagrees with your definition of PPD because a genuine fear must be based on rational thought, otherwise any murderer could claim that they had a genuine fear and then be exempted from dolus based on PPD. This was mentioned in the SCA judgment:

"But as was pointed out in DeOliviera ,the defence of putative private defence implies rational but mistaken thought. Even if the accused believed that there was someone else in the toilet,his expressed fear that such a person was a danger to his life was not the product of any rational thought. The person concerned was behind a door and although the accused stated that he had heard a noise which he thought might be caused by the door being opened, it did not open. Thus not only did he not know who was behind the door, he did not know whether that person in fact constituted any threat to him. In these circumstances, although he may have been anxious, it is inconceivable that a rational person could have believed he was entitled to fire at this person with a heavy calibre firearm, without taking even that most elementary precaution of firing a warning shot (which the accused said he elected not to fire as he thought the ricochet might harm him). This constituted prima facie proof that the accused did not entertain an honest and genuine belief that he was acting lawfully, which was in no way disturbed by his vacillating and untruthful evidence in regard to his state of mind when he fired his weapon."

Exactly.

We have covered this ground before in huge detail

The question is not what the accused claimed to have felt (fear etc), but what the accused must have known.

That implied knowledge must then meet the legal standard for PPD

As in other jurisdictions, the SC has consistently held that PPD is a high standard to reach - for obvious reasons.

So - as all 5 judges concurred - where no rational person could have believed that an attack had commenced / firing was justified - then prima facie OP also must have known that

The onus was thus on the defence to prove that he actually did believe it and did believe he was entitled to fire.

Of course no such evidence was forthcoming
 
I've explained it in the bit beneath that sentence you bolded. Do you think a judge can find that you directed force at a perceived attacker to save your own life, if you say you did not?

That's preposterous.

Yes of course if that's how they see the evidence.

He purposely took a gun to get rid of the intruder, feared for his life and fired because he thought he was being attacked. That's logical. Insisting you didn't fire to save your life is not logical.
 
Does this remind you of anyone? Unfortunately it is from the Daily Fail but worth a quick read if you have the time. It is the result of a study, for what it is worth, and only reinforces learned opinion.


Do YOU work with a psychopath? Experts reveal the traits and tell-tale signs of the condition found in successful people

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...uccessful-ambitious-people.html#ixzz3yYD1Yh3C
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

“HOW TO SPOT A PSYCHOPATH: FROM CHARM TO MANIPULATION
Psychopaths display different traits depending on their disorder, but common signs include superficial charm, a grandiose notion of self-worth, the need for stimulation and impulsiveness, pathological lying, the ability to manipulate others and a lack of remorse and empathy.”
 
Incorrect.

The correct legal definition was posted upthread. You don't get to write your own definition.

Legal reasoning requires that you apply the facts to the legal standard - not claim a legal standard conveniently met by the facts.

Exactly what the defence are now doing in their submission to the Concourt by coming up with a so called ‘missing link’ to add to the established conditions for DE. Of course this will be to Pistorius’ advantage.

They really are getting desperate
 
Does this remind you of anyone? Unfortunately it is from the Daily Fail but worth a quick read if you have the time. It is the result of a study, for what it is worth, and only reinforces learned opinion.


Do YOU work with a psychopath? Experts reveal the traits and tell-tale signs of the condition found in successful people

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...uccessful-ambitious-people.html#ixzz3yYD1Yh3C
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

“HOW TO SPOT A PSYCHOPATH: FROM CHARM TO MANIPULATION
Psychopaths display different traits depending on their disorder, but common signs include superficial charm, a grandiose notion of self-worth, the need for stimulation and impulsiveness, pathological lying, the ability to manipulate others and a lack of remorse and empathy.”

This crops up from time to time and when it is countered with the fact that none of the psychiatrists or psychologists hinted at any of this they reply with "well they weren't looking for it" Always makes me laugh.
 
Incorrect.

The correct legal definition was posted upthread. You don't get to write your own definition.

Legal reasoning requires that you apply the facts to the legal standard - not claim a legal standard conveniently met by the facts.

....what facts ?
 
Yes of course if that's how they see the evidence.

He purposely took a gun to get rid of the intruder, feared for his life and fired because he thought he was being attacked. That's logical. Insisting you didn't fire to save your life is not logical.

Trouble is for him, that's what he said. And people insisting he meant to say otherwise is not logical either. You may imagine that's why he could have shot, but it's not his version.

If you're into imagining, why not imagine that because he said he had no desire to shoot the perceived intruder, and so he can't genuinely have felt that he was about to be killed, and because he was adjudged to be lying about not meaning to pull the trigger by Masipa, and because we know Reeva would have been screaming in agony after the first shot when he paused to re-aim, the most logical answer is that he knew it was Reeva and he wanted to kill her when he fired exactly the right number of bullets to make her stop screaming. Or is your imagination limited to accepting only what Masipa believed, despite the overwhelming evidence against it, that she ignored.

The SCA correctly found that he has never given a credible explanation for firing the shots that killed Reeva, so desperate was he to say he fired unintentionally and without aim, and his firearm just happened to be pointing in the direction of the door. Just like the gun that miraculously discharged itself in Tasha's.
 
Trouble is for him, that's what he said. And people insisting he meant to say otherwise is not logical either. You may imagine that's why he could have shot, but it's not his version.

If you're into imagining, why not imagine that because he said he had no desire to shoot the perceived intruder, and so he can't genuinely have felt that he was about to be killed, and because he was adjudged to be lying about not meaning to pull the trigger by Masipa, and because we know Reeva would have been screaming in agony after the first shot when he paused to re-aim, the most logical answer is that he knew it was Reeva and he wanted to kill her when he fired exactly the right number of bullets to make her stop screaming. Or is your imagination limited to accepting only what Masipa believed, despite the overwhelming evidence against it, that she ignored.

The SCA correctly found that he has never given a credible explanation for firing the shots that killed Reeva, so desperate was he to say he fired unintentionally and without aim, and his firearm just happened to be pointing in the direction of the door. Just like the gun that miraculously discharged itself in Tasha's.

I've no axe to grind with OP so I'm only interested in the logic of his evidence.
 
Yes, when pressed by Nel. This is catch 22. If he hadn't explained what he did in great detail, while being repeatedly asked why he did this and didn't do that by Nel, he might have had his version rejected because he couldn't explain his actions. But when he justifies his actions, then he was thinking throughout and must be held accountable for that. I'm not sure in what way he could have been clearer that he was acting in reaction to things that happened as they happened, including the noise in the toilet.

That's the problem with lawyers, they'll twist your words to make it fit their case.

Even Ms. Burger (sp?) said that she felt she was under trial when she was being cross examined by Roux.
 
You do have to wonder at what drives posters who have no legal training to insist that the unanimous judgement of 5 Supreme Court judges is incorrect
 
<Respectfully snipped> because he said he had no desire to shoot the perceived intruder, and so he can't genuinely have felt that he was about to be killed, <Snipped>

His explanation defies logic, I would say.
 
This crops up from time to time and when it is countered with the fact that none of the psychiatrists or psychologists hinted at any of this they reply with "well they weren't looking for it" Always makes me laugh.

Confirming it would have made it more likely he was a murderer and would not have got him off the hook. So he got away lightly IMO. Psychopaths, if they wish and have a reason, can be quite charming and would fool most.
 
You do have to wonder at what drives posters who have no legal training to insist that the unanimous judgement of 5 Supreme Court judges is incorrect

On the other hand I think it safe to conclude that had the unanimous judgement been to the benefit of Pistorius these non-legally trained posters would be applauding the Supreme Court judges for their knowledge and wisdom

I believe the condition of Acute Pistofanarianism recently diagnosed by non-medically trained posters has that effect on some people
 
As the decision of the ConCourt approaches another media attempt to play on Pistorius' disabilities.....

https://www.the-newshub.com/international/oscar-pistorius

One wonders if there might not be a PR company 'commissioning' these articles on behalf of Pistorius

One should feel sorry for the author really, unable to recognise a work of fiction when she sees it. Just another unwitting victim of the sociopath as I see it. Did she mention the 4 bullets?
 
Of course not, it's culpable homicide which is still a serious offence.

Logically, it cannot be culpable homicide, which is essentially a crime of negligence, where there's a finding of intent to kill. Not unless the criteria for PPD are satisfied. And there's no point having a legal standard for PPD if the presence of fear alone is sufficient to negate or, at least, dilute, that safeguard.

As I understand it, the law in S Africa is not that the presence of fear negates dolus, which is what you seem to be suggesting. The law is not, 'He was afraid, so it has to be CH, not DE'.

Of course, the elephant in the room at the SCA was that there was absolutely nothing rational about OP's belief that the person in the toilet was an intruder. And, if it isn't rational, prima facie, it isn't true.

IMO, the Defence was jolly lucky that the State let that aspect go. Because Masipa's acceptance of the intruder could so easily have been held to be an error of law, too.
 
But you can Marfa. That's what PPD is. It's a defense whereby you have a genuine fear which in fact turns out to be unfounded. This is the bit you're missing in the above - what he thought, not what was actually happening. You are taking the armchair critic approach which is not the correct approach here. Would you really say 'who goes there' if you thought you knew it was an intruder? Surely you'd just yell 'get out' as he did.

Beg to differ. I understand what PPD is (and isn't) and I understand why Oscar and thousands of others before him have claimed they killed because they were in fear for their life (the Michael Dunn case comes to mind. You may recall the so-called "loud music murder" in the U.S. a few years ago. It didn't work for him either.)

It's nice of you to take a killer at their word (armchair supporter?) but you fail to acknowledge that the accused has to meet certain legal standards for their claim of self-defense to be legally justified or lawful. It's not enough to simply claim that's what you "thought" and expect to get off because no one can ever know what was in your mind at that moment but you.

If all you had to do was say "I killed them because I was in fear for my life. Turns out there was no reason for me to believe that. Sorry, but not my fault. Just a mistake." then NO ONE would ever get convicted of murder if there were no other witnesses present.

Someone hiding behind a closed and locked door just does not yet present the direct threat of imminent bodily harm. Perhaps if Oscar had been approaching the toilet just as Reeva suddenly and wildly swung the door open and he was startled and shot in response, well... that would at least present a more plausible threat or startle and Oscar might have a different future ahead of him today. But gosh, that door was locked.

Even if you believe the intruder story, hearing the sound of wood moving is not sufficient cause to presume an imminent threat. Oscar made a whopper of an erroneous assumption about who was in that toilet, and then took a loaded gun and went to them and without any direct or obvious threat against him, pumped four lethal rounds into them because he felt entitled to do so. Did he in fact know better? Yes, he knew the law for using lethal force against an intruder in your own home. He passed the firearms exam. Did he care? Apparently not.

This is how this amateur legal mind sees the situation:

Did his behavior constitute a crime? Yes, homicide.
Did his actions meet the standards for lawful self-defense? No, there was no real threat.
Did he act lawfully in putative private defense? No, although the accused claims to have thought his life was in danger, his subsequent actions violated the legal requirements for a lawful self-defense response to even a perceived threat.
Did his actions meet the tests for murder with intent in the form of Dolus eventualis? Yes. It checks all the boxes.
 
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