Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #69 *Appeal Verdict*

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BIB, so now we're seeking the public's validation to determine if Oscar is guilty. There's a reason we moved away from this long ago.

Here's some other numbers worth keeping in mind regarding the public:

42% of people believe the earth is 10,000 years old and that evolution is not real
20% of Republicans believe Obama is the anti-Christ

With respect I think you confuse validation and opinion. The poster merely states the opinion of a very significant number of persons living in SA. Nobody is validating anything

Also quite why you quote ‘other numbers worth keeping in mind’ escapes me. Unless of course you are trying to ‘support’ Pistorius in some way by suggesting a belief in him murdering Reeva compares with some of the more eccentric beliefs held by certain members of the public.

However, having said that I’m sure that a person’s belief that Pistorius murdered Reeva is as equally valid as anyone else’s opinion even if that person also believes the earth to be flat
 
I wish you all and all those you love a peaceful & happy Christmas time.
Thanks to you I can understand better and learn a lot. Merci beaucoup!
I feel grateful to have "met" you. Sharing is the best way to become rich.
 
Haunted by Reeva’s death scene

News on the crime scene photographer that was so traumatised by what he saw in the bathroom that he has applied for early retirement.

http://sbeta.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/haunted-by-reeva-s-death-scene-1963472

BIB, a senior crime scene photographer whose job it is to visually capture the scene and who has been to probably hundreds of scenes in his career was so traumatised that he had to retire.

Does anyone doubt that?

Then why is it so hard to accept that Oscar is also traumatized and perhaps his emotions in court were raw emotions that were coming to the surface?
 
THE SILENT WITNESS SPEAKS: FORENSICS IN THE OSCAR PISTORIUS TRIAL

Interesting news of forthcoming documentary.

http://www.einnews.com/pr_news/3031...speaks-forensics-in-the-oscar-pistorius-trial

In this article is a link to their Kickstarter page and a promo video featuring crime scene photos I have not seen before.

I’m sure the proposed documentary will be interesting but it is a little worrying that the director of the company who hopes to make the programme does not seem to fully understand such basics as the purpose of the court hearing in April 2016.

The article states, ‘His first sentence of 5 years was set aside and he is to be re-sentenced in April as the final pronouncement of his sentence will take place in April 2016’.

This is not correct, there is no guarantee of a ‘final pronouncement’ in April. The High Court hearing is to report on the progress of Pistorius’ appeal to the ConCourt. Only if his leave to appeal has been dismissed by that court and presumably any plea to the Chief Justice has also fallen on deaf ears will he be finally sentenced on the murder charge.

Personally, I think with the family resources available to him justice may well be finally served somewhat later than next April. However, I hope I am wrong!
 
BIB, a senior crime scene photographer whose job it is to visually capture the scene and who has been to probably hundreds of scenes in his career was so traumatised that he had to retire.

Does anyone doubt that?

Then why is it so hard to accept that Oscar is also traumatized and perhaps his emotions in court were raw emotions that were coming to the surface?

With respect if you bother to read the article then yes Morné du Toit is doubted so why should Pistorius not be doubted.

His employers doubted him and rejected his claim. For the time being he has had a sympathetic hearing from a female judge, much the same as some will find sympathy for Pistorius but the State Attorney’s Office, has already filed papers to have the order overturned.

In my opinion citing this story to support Pistorius being ‘traumatised’ is somewhat clinging to straws, or indeed a green bucket
 
:floorlaugh: I immediately thought of Marianne Faithfull who dated Mick Jagger. She wore a fur coat and no nickers, or anything else for that matter.

"She refers to the pivotal moment as "that dreadful drugs bust". It was 1967, at Keith Richards' country house in Sussex, and Faithfull, according to one police officer, let her fur coat slip off to reveal she was naked. From there, there would be no turning back".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-447189/The-life-loves-hell-Marianne-Faithfull.html
JJ, PC you are brilliant.
 
BIB, a senior crime scene photographer whose job it is to visually capture the scene and who has been to probably hundreds of scenes in his career was so traumatised that he had to retire.

Does anyone doubt that?

Then why is it so hard to accept that Oscar is also traumatized and perhaps his emotions in court were raw emotions that were coming to the surface?

Because trauma is not something you can switch on and off at will. He managed a display of snot and retching in court because he needed to garner the sympathies of the judge and the assessors. He also managed cockiness and lying on the stand, and when he was off the stand he managed careful monitoring of witness's evidence and plotting. Outside court he was dating a new girl (or was it more than one?) within a few weeks of Reeva's murder, and clubbing and fighting to defend his 'reputation'. He was celebrating at a party at Roux's house on the night of the verdict. He and he alone created that bloodbath in his bathroom. I will never have an ounce of sympathy for the murderer while he continues to lie to save his own neck. I hope he is traumatised, haunted in fact by what he did.
 
The Sunday Times published an article in early December and Lisa has now published it in her blog. I’m sure you’ll find it interesting. Here are some paraphrased excerpts and quotes.

OP’s greatest victory took place not on a running track but in court on September 11 last year. On that day he learnt that he had been found guilty of culpable homicide — the best outcome he could have wished for at the end of a trial in which he had been charged with pre-meditated murder. Last week, he suffered his worst defeat when the SCA overturned the trial verdict and found that when he fired four bullets into a closed bathroom, killing Reeva, he had committed murder. A jail sentence of at least 15 years awaits him.

John Carlin attended a party with OP in the home of Barry Roux hours after Masipa had made it evident in court that the verdict of manslaughter was what he could expect and that she would formally deliver her sentence the next day. “He would then be going straight to prison, but at that party Pistorius wore the calm, satisfied look of a man who felt he had been vindicated by the justice system and believed his honour had been saved. He told Roux “I don’t give a **** about the sentence, I am not a murderer.”

“He knew he should expect a five-year sentence but appeared untroubled by the prospect as he chatted politely with guests and took turns to flip steaks and boerewors sausages on the barbecue. It was a boozy party, but Pistorius did not drink alcohol and left early. The last thing he told me before driving home was that for the first time in a long time” (since he had shot and killed Reeva 18 months earlier, “he had found some peace”. OP said, “I think I may finally have a decent night’s sleep”. Presumably he had an even better night’s sleep on October 19 this year when he was released from prison into house arrest after serving barely a year of the sentence Masipa had given him. His relief proved short-lived, however as the SCA ruling declared him to be a murderer. If there is any possible consolation it is that the judgment did not find him guilty of intentionally killing Reeva.

His new conviction of dolus eventualis means that he had to have foreseen that firing four bullets into the bathroom door, knowing that there was a human being behind it , would lead to that human being’s death. The SCA judgment didn’t dispute OP’s contention that he believed he was shooting not at Reeva but at an intruder, but it did find that “whoever” his victim had been, he had shot to kill. Therefore he hadn’t acted with fearful recklessness, as Masipa chose to believe, but with the intention to murder.

The judgment, written by Judge Eric Leach, said that to be found guilty of this category of murder it “does not mean that a perpetrator must know or appreciate the identity of the victim”. OP was guilty of murder in the same way as a person who opens fire and kills someone unknown during “a wild shootout” in the course of an armed robbery. Judge Leach’s analogy was, “A person who causes a bomb to explode in a crowded place will probably be ignorant of the identity of his or her victims, but will nevertheless have the intention to kill those who might die in the resultant explosion.”

OP, who will feel that the justice system and God have failed him, may be extracting some crumbs of comfort from the knowledge that he will never now be found guilty by a court of law of deliberately killing Reeva, the woman he has always said he loved. However, he will also know that the court of public opinion will beg to differ, with millions around the world convinced that if, as the SCA judgment said, this was a tragedy “of Shakespearean proportions” he must have known he was killing her and not the intruder of his imagination. He now faces the imminent prospect of arrest prior to a new and lengthy sentence being passed and “he is devastated”, as his agent, Peet van Zyl, described OP’s state of mind to the media.

Carlin said, “We had just met for the first time and he sat across from me in his uncle’s study on a long leather sofa with his head resting on his aunt’s shoulder. Pale and thin, a pitiful shadow of the “Bladerunner”, … he looked and sounded like a five-year-old boy whose puppy had just died. As he responded in a quivering, high-pitched voice to my attempts to make conversation, it felt as if at any moment he would collapse onto his aunt’s bosom and break down sobbing”.

“That scene I had witnessed was by no means unusual and it was clear to his family, who saw him burst into tears all the time, that the future he foresaw for himself was filled with terrors and little prospect of joy or earthly redemption. He had always prayed a lot and read his Bible, but now he questioned his faith in God”.

Uncle Arnold asked OP if he saw any purpose in life to which OP responded that with God’s help he would strive to see a point in carrying on living. He is now the same age as Reeva was when he killed her. “He will be asking himself why God has not helped him in his hour of greatest need. And he will be wondering again, possibly in a more despairing mood than ever, whether his own life is still worth living.

Pistorius’s physical freedom and the moral comfort he thought he had found in that first verdict of manslaughter have both been snatched away. Once a hero to millions, he must endure the unending shame of knowing that for many the world over, not least Steenkamp’s family, he has finally received the punishment that fits the crime.”

https://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/murder-verdict-revives-pistorius-suicide-fears.pdf
 
I’m sure the proposed documentary will be interesting but it is a little worrying that the director of the company who hopes to make the programme does not seem to fully understand such basics as the purpose of the court hearing in April 2016.

The article states, ‘His first sentence of 5 years was set aside and he is to be re-sentenced in April as the final pronouncement of his sentence will take place in April 2016’.

This is not correct, there is no guarantee of a ‘final pronouncement’ in April. The High Court hearing is to report on the progress of Pistorius’ appeal to the ConCourt. Only if his leave to appeal has been dismissed by that court and presumably any plea to the Chief Justice has also fallen on deaf ears will he be finally sentenced on the murder charge.

Personally, I think with the family resources available to him justice may well be finally served somewhat later than next April. However, I hope I am wrong!


I don't plan to take up residence again until the sentencing or appeal but couldn't miss this subject. I am more than concerned because this guy is a professor of Theology of some 20 or more years standing. I am concerned it may be an indirect Pistorius infiltration of some sort. Call me cynical! You can find him on Linkedin amongst other places.
 
I don't plan to take up residence again until the sentencing or appeal but couldn't miss this subject. I am more than concerned because this guy is a professor of Theology of some 20 or more years standing. I am concerned it may be an indirect Pistorius infiltration of some sort. Call me cynical! You can find him on Linkedin amongst other places.

I think you are right, I too smell a very large rat. I didn't at first but reading this again http://www.einnews.com/pr_news/3031...speaks-forensics-in-the-oscar-pistorius-trial with my cynical goggles on it starts to scream PR very loudly at every turn.

Some may say that this is specifically designed to reassure potential backers that this will be an unbiased project. Not me. There's a few words in there that make my hairs begin to prickle - "competitors complained...amazingly enough..", "Realizing his mistake", "the serious claims", "Both of them feel strongly that the allegations raised are so serious that it warrants a proper investigation", "The claims of people who believe that there were irregularities in the trial..", "The whole affair has judicial significance in South Africa".

This speaks from one side; who would adopt this language and angle? It speaks for itself IMO.

At least it seems he's aware of the work of JJ and Mr Fossil :giggle: ("unexplained wounds on the deceased's body"). Now which coward would not name Reeva?
 
I think you are right, I too smell a very large rat. I didn't at first but reading this again http://www.einnews.com/pr_news/3031...speaks-forensics-in-the-oscar-pistorius-trial with my cynical goggles on it starts to scream PR very loudly at every turn.

Some may say that this is specifically designed to reassure potential backers that this will be an unbiased project. Not me. There's a few words in there that make my hairs begin to prickle - "competitors complained...amazingly enough..", "Realizing his mistake", "the serious claims", "Both of them feel strongly that the allegations raised are so serious that it warrants a proper investigation", "The claims of people who believe that there were irregularities in the trial..", "The whole affair has judicial significance in South Africa".

This speaks from one side; who would adopt this language and angle? It speaks for itself IMO.

At least it seems he's aware of the work of JJ and Mr Fossil :giggle: ("unexplained wounds on the deceased's body"). Now which coward would not name Reeva?

Their crowdfunding website says this project will only be funded if at least $50,000 is pledged by Mon, Jan 11 2016. So far there has been only one pledge of $50 out of the required $50,000 goal with only 13 days to go.

Maybe other people also smell a rat
 
Their crowdfunding website says this project will only be funded if at least $50,000 is pledged by Mon, Jan 11 2016. So far there has been only one pledge of $50 out of the required $50,000 goal with only 13 days to go.

Maybe other people also smell a rat

Is that all he could afford to start the ball rolling? His pocket money from Auntie and Uncle in all probability.

Strange timing wouldn't you agree? Now that he is out of prison and has an upgrade to murder.
 
I think you are right, I too smell a very large rat. I didn't at first but reading this again http://www.einnews.com/pr_news/3031...speaks-forensics-in-the-oscar-pistorius-trial with my cynical goggles on it starts to scream PR very loudly at every turn.

Some may say that this is specifically designed to reassure potential backers that this will be an unbiased project. Not me. There's a few words in there that make my hairs begin to prickle - "competitors complained...amazingly enough..", "Realizing his mistake", "the serious claims", "Both of them feel strongly that the allegations raised are so serious that it warrants a proper investigation", "The claims of people who believe that there were irregularities in the trial..", "The whole affair has judicial significance in South Africa".

This speaks from one side; who would adopt this language and angle? It speaks for itself IMO.

At least it seems he's aware of the work of JJ and Mr Fossil :giggle: ("unexplained wounds on the deceased's body"). Now which coward would not name Reeva?

Hi Tortoise. I too read it at first without suspicion but second time around what was 'between the lines' began making sense.

Interesting to see that only one donation of NZ$ 50, so far, has been received
and that Botha's brother Louis, who is involved, is from NZ - again my cynicism is uncontrolled. :crosseyed: It will be interesting to see what transpires.
 
Is that all he could afford to start the ball rolling? His pocket money from Auntie and Uncle in all probability.

Strange timing wouldn't you agree? Now that he is out of prison and has an upgrade to murder.

One of my first questions was WHY NOW? If 90 per cent (assumed from various polls) think he was guilty, they will not be interested in spending money to prove something they already believe and for which he now rightfully has been found guilty.

Regardless of the careful wording of the article, it is almost too careful. An immediate red flag in my "court".

That leaves only those who believe he is not guilty who might possibly be interested in financing such a project. Just a little crazy (and obvious) to me.
 
One of my first questions was WHY NOW? If 90 per cent (assumed from various polls) think he was guilty, they will not be interested in spending money to prove something they already believe and for which he now rightfully has been found guilty.

Regardless of the careful wording of the article, it is almost too careful. An immediate red flag in my "court".

That leaves only those who believe he is not guilty who might possibly be interested in financing such a project. Just a little crazy (and obvious) to me.

re: forensics and documentaries
get hold of a vodacom telecoms expert that can interpret and verify the early morning op phone usage... now there is a documentary i would watch.
 
I am typically as cyclical as they come, but I truly don't see any ulterior motive behind this documentary and I don't believe for a second that OP or his family have a thing to do with it.

This guy Botha is the CEO of the production company doing the film. I googled the company and they have produced tons of documentaries and short films, some of which have won awards. On their website under "past productions," they list:

Live broadcast production: Oscar Pistorius Trial Channel 199 March to May 2014: Midday and Afternoon Show
http://blue-marble.co.za/productions/past-roductions/

They produced The Lunch Time Show and The Afternoon Show, which recapped and analyzed court highlights each day. As the producer of these two trial-dedicated live shows, they know first hand the high level of world-wide public interest this case drew. And since they were directly involved with the case from day one, they were able to gather information along the way to eventually use for this documentary. I think it's as simple as that. High public interest + somewhat behind the scenes info = opportunity to make a film.

As for "why now?" ... The simple answer is because the trial is over. The evidence is in. The appeal is irrelevant to the evidence this documentary appears to be focusing on. So is the verdict. I would bet that regardless of the verdict outcome and whether or not either side appealed, this documentary was intended to be made. MANY documentaries have been made after the conclusion of high profile cases...OJ Simpson, Phil Spector, Drew Peterson, Jodi Arias, etc etc etc.

And apparently Kickstarter has been successfully used to fund numerous film and video projects. In 2012, documentaries alone received $42 million in pledges. Many of those projects were featured in film festivals and a few even earned Academy Award nominations. (http://www.pbs.org/pov/blog/news/2013/01/kickstarter-tips-from-three-successful-2012-doc-campaigns/) So I'm assuming that since this case had so much public interest, they anticipated similar interest in their film and hoped the public would help fund it.
 
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