Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #69 *Appeal Verdict*

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I can understand your uncertainty. Personally I think it is a big issue that people are keeping pistols for self defence without clear laws that allow this.

I am a woman who lives alone. No one else but my landlord has a key to my apartment. If tonight I were to wake up at 4AM to find an unknown person in my bathroom, I can be pretty darn sure that person is not in there for any good reason.

The law of self defence is actually very clear. Its the details matter of the case that matter.

Already you describe a situation different to OP. The only logical conclusion is that you do have an intruder!

I would be scared out of my mind, and the last thing I would be doing is considering whether or not my actions met lawful standards of self-defense.

The law does not require you to consider them.

However, anytime you decide to shoot another human being - clearly you are taking the responsibility for the decision.

My apartment is small, and the most natural thing to do would be to exit as quickly as possible.

This is again where details matter!

If you have been keeping a gun beside the bed, and decide to advance towards the danger - already you demonstrate a preconceived intention to shoot if the need arises. If you attempt to leave - this demonstrates a different intention!

But if for some reason I couldn't -- like, perhaps, being hampered by not having legs, or (if I actually HAD gone to sleep with someone next to me in bed) worrying about another person I couldn't wake without tipping off the intruder - and had a firearm, well, I'm far from sure I wouldn't use it.

Again details matter. If you can't escape - use of force becomes justified.

I strongly suspect that were this to happen in SA, and I wound up killing an actual intruder in my home (armed or not), I would not be facing a 15 year murder sentence.

Details!

If you would up killing an 6 foot armed intruder in your house at 4am as a living alone woman - surely this is the very definition of a justified shooting?

If you wind up killing the neighbours 8 year old boy - that's not going to be justified.

The point is - the onus is on you to be sure who you are shooting!

Again, no pity for OP, because I think he is actually guilty of DD. But I agree with those who think the Court is using DE as a consolation prize because the law doesn't allow them to retry DD at this point. If OP had killed a burglar in his home that night, we wouldn't be having the same kind of discussion.

But he didn't kill a burglar did he?

He blew his girlfriends head apart in "peculiar" circumstances and failed to offer any valid explanation.

The SCA is alive to the dynamics of the case.

Had he actually put together a convincing testimony regarding PPD - then CH would have stood.

But Masipa only managed to find CH in the first place by butchering the law.
 
Clearly you misunderstood. "For whatever reason" - do you know why it was him?

Oh and I've read a few.

You are trying to imply there is some ulterior or underhand motive in Leach writing the lead judgement

But this is what always happens

The judges discuss the judgement between themselves and work out who will write the lead, and if there will be any supporting or dissenting judgements.

The decision depends on their own case management and preferences
 
there's nothing to say that Leach didn't bully the other SCA members to his own point of view.

You are right. There is nothing to say it.

He was the most vocal during the hearing with the other SCA members mostly silent like mice during the hearing.

So Justice Leach bullied the President of the Court of Appeal and 3 other Justices?

Again you have clearly never seen any Appeal Court proceedings.

First the other judges did get involved with various places where they had questions to ask.

Second, it is typical for one judge to get involved in hard exchanges with Counsel.

This is the whole point of the proceedings in the Appeal Court.

And the Justices have of course prepared in advance, so they know already who will press Counsel on which issues.

Justice saying nothing merely indicated said Justice has no additional question for Counsel.

In particular, Justices do not tend to throw Counsel a lifeline even if they agree with Counsel.

Its a big boy pants Court
 
...i think the most important thing to keep in mind regarding this case is that there is no proof one way or the other......no evidence and no witness....hence the total farce this case has become....any judgement is one based on fresh air, there has to be a certain amount of proof before convicting someone to prison for murder, surely above.
 
Fascinating discussion. My quandary here is that I think Pistorius being convicted of murder is the just outcome, but I'm not sure that it is legally correct, so far as the SCA (as opposed to Masipa) is concerned. Or, at the very least, I think it is being selectively applied.

IMO, Pistorius should have been convicted of DD at the original trial. His "intruder" story was a fairy tale. He had no rational basis for believing that the person in the bathroom was anyone other than the other person in his home. If the court is obliged to accept "well, I thought the other person living here was still in bed -- my bad!" as a valid defense for shooting people in the dark, it would be almost impossible to convict anyone for crime of passion killings with no witnesses.

However, if the SCA was obliged by Masipa's ruling to accept that OP believed an intruder was present, the verdict of murder seems inappropriate to me.

I am a woman who lives alone. No one else but my landlord has a key to my apartment. If tonight I were to wake up at 4AM to find an unknown person in my bathroom, I can be pretty darn sure that person is not in there for any good reason. I would be scared out of my mind, and the last thing I would be doing is considering whether or not my actions met lawful standards of self-defense. My apartment is small, and the most natural thing to do would be to exit as quickly as possible. But if for some reason I couldn't -- like, perhaps, being hampered by not having legs, or (if I actually HAD gone to sleep with someone next to me in bed) worrying about another person I couldn't wake without tipping off the intruder - and had a firearm, well, I'm far from sure I wouldn't use it.

I strongly suspect that were this to happen in SA, and I wound up killing an actual intruder in my home (armed or not), I would not be facing a 15 year murder sentence.

Again, no pity for OP, because I think he is actually guilty of DD. But I agree with those who think the Court is using DE as a consolation prize because the law doesn't allow them to retry DD at this point. If OP had killed a burglar in his home that night, we wouldn't be having the same kind of discussion.

I think this is a very well stated and interesting post.

I think there is a mistake in this way of thinking though - of thinking the case as you have done - of whether you too when faced with this situation, might have shot a perceived intruder to death through a closed toilet door, and whether you should be found guilty of murder if you had done so. Where that line of thinking falls down, in my view, is that it is entirely imagined, it is your take on imagining that you had no other option than to kill the intruder because if you gave them a few seconds more you might end up dead yourself. What that imaginary scenario doesn't do is to take account of Pistorius' case, his evidence/testimony, the step by step account in his words of how it happened, and the proven facts and findings.

Each case is different in every respect - and the available evidence must be tested rigorously to decide the case. I'm sure you would agree that if there is even the remotest possibility that this person has invented this story to cover up murdering his spouse, the courts have a duty to establish that - in the interests of justice for the victim and for the protection of society in general from this person with a lethal weapon at his disposal. It cannot be treated lightly, and every reported case of an imagined intruder taken at face value, so the case demands a high attention to detail.

I apologise if this sounds condescending - that is not my intention but it helps me to clarify my point of view.

In Pistorius' case, there was much to give the court and the police concern -

He was unable to keep his version straight from what happened in the bedroom to what happened in the bathroom. It changed after bail, and then morphed significantly during the trial, where not least significant was his changed defence. He said he did not fire at the intruder (thus to save his life) but he fired before any thought and without conscious choice.

Nevertheless, the judge did accept that while he was untruthful, there was no evidence to disprove his claim that he thought Reeva was in bed and an intruder was in the closed toilet. That is where it ends though, with her acceptance that he was mistaken as to who he was shooting. She did not examine, in her written judgement at least, his actions towards the intruder. Why he fired his gun 4 times, deliberately, with no sight of any danger or sight of movement while his awareness was not compromised in any way by his mobility problems.

His reason for firing, at the moment of firing, apart from a belief from the moment he went into action that morning that his life could be in danger, was given zero attention. Her findings of the events during the shooting were missing and her application of the law regarding his intentions towards the intruder missing also.

Very importantly however, she rejected the notion that he was compromised by his disability and therefore excused for his actions, or that he lost control of his trigger finger. So linking that back to the imagined scenario, where he could not escape - his vulnerability and mobility problems held no weight in her determination, he was thinking rationally throughout, observant and in control. He had other options.

Then we get to the SCA because of the unquestionable legal errors in the judgement. Whether that was due to poor drafting or actual mistaken knowledge and application of the law is not clear to anyone, but suffice to say the judge herself agreed when she gave leave to appeal, that another court may have decided differently. They cannot review the finding that he thought an intruder was behind the door, but since they do determine that the law was not applied properly, the duty has now passed to them to deliver justice. They act within their rights and powers to assess the whole of the evidence when they apply the law, and they are entitled to their determination that the accused has not testified truthfully, because that much was a finding of the judge at trial.

So linking back again to the imagined scenario, we now have a vulnerable and disabled accused person who cannot rely on that to excuse his shooting, and an accused who has not been truthful because he has given conflicting versions that cancel each other out. In your scenario you are no longer able to imagine that you shot and killed because you were vulnerable, as opposed to being a seven foot heavyweight boxing champion say, you are no longer able to imagine that you shot to protect and defend yourself - because you fired by impulse rather than choice, and you are not in a position to defend your actions any longer because you haven't given one consistent honest account of what happened. So my point is, the imagined scenario crumbles away, the one where posters like to imagine that they would not be convicted of murder if they genuinely mistook a spouse for an intruder in the dark - the facts are just not the same as Pistorius'.

In this respect I don't think DE is a consolation prize at all, it is the correct verdict on the evidence, with the disregarded evidence of DD, because the evidence establishes that he did not act in PPD. We don't have to think of it as - what if it had been a real intruder - because if it had been, his version would have been genuine (as opposed to invoking disbelief) and unwavering.
 
Fascinating discussion. My quandary here is that I think Pistorius being convicted of murder is the just outcome, but I'm not sure that it is legally correct, so far as the SCA (as opposed to Masipa) is concerned. Or, at the very least, I think it is being selectively applied.

IMO, Pistorius should have been convicted of DD at the original trial. His "intruder" story was a fairy tale. He had no rational basis for believing that the person in the bathroom was anyone other than the other person in his home. If the court is obliged to accept "well, I thought the other person living here was still in bed -- my bad!" as a valid defense for shooting people in the dark, it would be almost impossible to convict anyone for crime of passion killings with no witnesses.

However, if the SCA was obliged by Masipa's ruling to accept that OP believed an intruder was present, the verdict of murder seems inappropriate to me.

I am a woman who lives alone. No one else but my landlord has a key to my apartment. If tonight I were to wake up at 4AM to find an unknown person in my bathroom, I can be pretty darn sure that person is not in there for any good reason. I would be scared out of my mind, and the last thing I would be doing is considering whether or not my actions met lawful standards of self-defense. My apartment is small, and the most natural thing to do would be to exit as quickly as possible. But if for some reason I couldn't -- like, perhaps, being hampered by not having legs, or (if I actually HAD gone to sleep with someone next to me in bed) worrying about another person I couldn't wake without tipping off the intruder - and had a firearm, well, I'm far from sure I wouldn't use it.

I strongly suspect that were this to happen in SA, and I wound up killing an actual intruder in my home (armed or not), I would not be facing a 15 year murder sentence.

Again, no pity for OP, because I think he is actually guilty of DD. But I agree with those who think the Court is using DE as a consolation prize because the law doesn't allow them to retry DD at this point. If OP had killed a burglar in his home that night, we wouldn't be having the same kind of discussion.

Coherency in the application of the law is obviously important, but the most important consideration, IMO, is a just outcome.

I've been trying to remember - maybe someone else can help me out - which judge it was that said he'd prefer a fair outcome based on bad law than an unfair decision based on good law.

Ultimately, the SCA knew that OP was fabricating, so they adopted a pragmatic approach and acted accordingly. Any other outcome would have been an affront to the principle that justice must be seen to be done.
 
Fascinating discussion. My quandary here is that I think Pistorius being convicted of murder is the just outcome, but I'm not sure that it is legally correct, so far as the SCA (as opposed to Masipa) is concerned. Or, at the very least, I think it is being selectively applied.

IMO, Pistorius should have been convicted of DD at the original trial. His "intruder" story was a fairy tale. He had no rational basis for believing that the person in the bathroom was anyone other than the other person in his home. If the court is obliged to accept "well, I thought the other person living here was still in bed -- my bad!" as a valid defense for shooting people in the dark, it would be almost impossible to convict anyone for crime of passion killings with no witnesses.

However, if the SCA was obliged by Masipa's ruling to accept that OP believed an intruder was present, the verdict of murder seems inappropriate to me.

I am a woman who lives alone. No one else but my landlord has a key to my apartment. If tonight I were to wake up at 4AM to find an unknown person in my bathroom, I can be pretty darn sure that person is not in there for any good reason. I would be scared out of my mind, and the last thing I would be doing is considering whether or not my actions met lawful standards of self-defense. My apartment is small, and the most natural thing to do would be to exit as quickly as possible. But if for some reason I couldn't -- like, perhaps, being hampered by not having legs, or (if I actually HAD gone to sleep with someone next to me in bed) worrying about another person I couldn't wake without tipping off the intruder - and had a firearm, well, I'm far from sure I wouldn't use it.

I strongly suspect that were this to happen in SA, and I wound up killing an actual intruder in my home (armed or not), I would not be facing a 15 year murder sentence.

Again, no pity for OP, because I think he is actually guilty of DD. But I agree with those who think the Court is using DE as a consolation prize because the law doesn't allow them to retry DD at this point. If OP had killed a burglar in his home that night, we wouldn't be having the same kind of discussion.

Welcome Datchery! Did anyone warn you this forum is addictive?

Mr. Jitty (ETA: Sherbet & Tortoise) all answered your post very well but I just wanted to add my take on why DE is an appropriate verdict in this case.

Many of us also would have liked to have seen Oscar convicted of DD of Reeva, but Judge Masipa was not receptive to consider all of the circumstantial evidence and IMO Roux bamboozled her with a distorted and dishonest timeline. Beyond reasonable doubt is a tough bar to reach in situations like this where there are no eyewitnesses and the accused will lie through their teeth to avoid a murder conviction and they can afford the best counsel money can buy (which is just the way that goes).

I think it is also important to remember that Oscar was originally charged with intentionally killing "a person, to wit, REEVA STEENKAMP" (emphasis mine)-- The State indicted Oscar on the original charge of:

COUNT 1: MURDER -- READ WITH THE PROVISIONS OF SECTION 51(1) OF ACT 105 OF 1997

In that upon or about 14 February 2013 and at or near 286 Bushwillow Street, Silverwoods Country Estate, Silver Lakes in the District of Pretoria the accused did unlawfully kill a person, to wit, REEVA STEENKAMP, a 29 year old female.

http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/18...llow_share=true&escape=false&view_mode=scroll

So I think it was clear from the beginning that the State sought murder charges with respect to the killing of "a person." The identity of the person was established as Reeva Steenkamp. So while the State charged Oscar with unlawfully killing Reeva, they did not limit their case to proving premeditated murder (DD).

I don't think it accurately reflects the burden on the court or the interests of justice to view DE as a "consolation prize" when premeditated murder (DD) can't be proven. The fact is there are three forms of intent or Dolus-- directus, indirectus and eventualis. The court is obligated to determine if unlawful intent existed and in what form. It's not some kind of under-handed maneuver to get a murder conviction if at first you don't succeed.

For me, I have no problem accepting that his intruder story could be reasonably possibly true. However, having a honest belief that there might be an intruder does not also mean he held an honest belief he was entitled to kill them. The use of lethal force against another human must be justified as a last resort to fend off an attack that had commenced or was imminent (or was perceived to be) and be proportionate to the nature of the attack.

His testimony of the circumstances in which he fired did not provide a basis or foundation for establishing he could have had an honest belief he needed to kill someone in defense of his own life. His intruder story may have been reasonably possibly true, but more importantly his account of the circumstances with respect to why he fired lacked credibility and did not justify his alleged belief he would have been acting lawfully. And his response was certainly not proportionate!

He exceeded the bounds for legal self-defense in several respects and could not justify his actions as a lawful killing under PPD. The court was unable to accept that he had any legitimate basis for an honest belief he was acting lawfully.

In other words, it was obvious he did not care if he unlawfully killed the person behind the door (DE).
 
In the end if you unload 4 zombie stoppers at a sound in the toilet, you better be pretty sure there is an intruder in there.

Especially don't come crying to appeals judges if you lie about the "peculiar" circumstances
 
I wonder what people would make of other Court of Appeal proceedings I have seen where an eminent Justice has literally taken Counsel apart, including withering sarcasm, mocking tones or indeed an entire section of the judgment offering judicial rebuke for the party's case, evidence, or conduct.

Especially in civil cases - not to mention a few where the Crown is involved.

It's quite well understood (allow me a Rugby analogy) that counsel must put their body on the line for their client, perhaps offering weak arguments, being the only ones their client has.

In such circumstances is it not unusual for a grumpy Justice to tear strips off counsel (essentially for the conduct of their client).

Although not a rehearing, it should come as no surprise that Justices lack empathy for Counsel who cannot hold up his client's own testimony to back the submissions he makes in Court

Of course needs must, and sometimes a counsel like Roux will have to risk a verbal savaging because he doesn't have any good options.

Personally I thought Leach was quite restrained in the face of Roux diligently refusing to listen to what the bench was pointedly asking him

I know of a notorious Court of Appeal justice or two who would have refused to let Roux continue like that.

In any event a statement along the lines "we can't tell what the accused version was" is a wholly expected judicial rebuke of the accused case given the submissions Roux made.
 
I wonder what people would make of other Court of Appeal proceedings I have seen where an eminent Justice has literally taken Counsel apart, including withering sarcasm, mocking tones or indeed an entire section of the judgment offering judicial rebuke for the party's case, evidence, or conduct.

Especially in civil cases - not to mention a few where the Crown is involved.

It's quite well understood (allow me a Rugby analogy) that counsel must put their body on the line for their client, perhaps offering weak arguments, being the only ones their client has.

In such circumstances is it not unusual for a grumpy Justice to tear strips off counsel (essentially for the conduct of their client).

Although not a rehearing, it should come as no surprise that Justices lack empathy for Counsel who cannot hold up his client's own testimony to back the submissions he makes in Court

Of course needs must, and sometimes a counsel like Roux will have to risk a verbal savaging because he doesn't have any good options.

Personally I thought Leach was quite restrained in the face of Roux diligently refusing to listen to what the bench was pointedly asking him

I know of a notorious Court of Appeal justice or two who would have refused to let Roux continue like that.

In any event a statement along the lines "we can't tell what the accused version was" is a wholly expected judicial rebuke of the accused case given the submissions Roux made.

I am almost at the point of feeling sorry for Roux having to be backed by the totally fabricated shambles that passed as Pistorius’ 'testimony'
 
You make a great point here.

There were unsubstantiated, silly accusations that Masipa didn't write her own verdict, but rather one of the accessors wrote it and Masipa was forced to read it for the first time while on the bench, fumbling her way through.

If that's the case, there's nothing to say that Leach didn't bully the other SCA members to his own point of view. He was the most vocal during the hearing with the other SCA members mostly silent like mice during the hearing.

I don't know that any one "accused" Masipa of not writing her own verdict, and I certainly never heard any one hint she was "forced" (?) to read it for the first time in the courtroom that day, but I for one, certainly suspected she may have let the assessors write portions of the judgment.

Many people watching the live feed were quite struck by her halting reading of certain portions of the text, as if it were unfamiliar to her. And these suspicions weren't eased when she rather abruptly concluded court the first day and returned the following day with patches added to the judgment notably such as the accused had no intention to kill the deceased "or anyone else for that matter."
 
You are trying to imply there is some ulterior or underhand motive in Leach writing the lead judgement

But this is what always happens

The judges discuss the judgement between themselves and work out who will write the lead, and if there will be any supporting or dissenting judgements.

The decision depends on their own case management and preferences

I know, I was asking if you knew why it was Leech.
 
Well, Trotterly, this certainly does explain where you have been coming from all this time.

It also explains a lot about where Masipa may have gone astray if she subscribed to Burchell's peculiar logic in this case:

http://www.bdlive.co.za/opinion/2014/09/17/masipas-decision-to-acquit-oscar-of-murder-justified


The only way I can make sense of this business of "notionally ruling out Reeva" is if Burchell is somehow trying to analyze intent for Dolus directus.

It is as if he is saying that: if Oscar (A) intended to kill the person behind the door (B) and mistakenly kills Reeva (C) then he would only be guilty of murdering the person behind the door (which unfortunately due to error in objecto turned out to be Reeva) if he had actually intended to kill her in the first place -- and Aha! That can't be true because he thought she was in the bedroom! In other words, he did not think Reeva was in the toilet-- (he had already notionally ruled her out of the category of possible victims)-- and therefore he can't be guilty of murdering her.

Sounds like a test for DD to me...


This last statement IMO would only make sense if you are testing for Dolus directus... then yes, of course, you could not have had direct intent to kill them if you held the honest believed they were in the other room.

However, if we are to believe your intruder story, and that you went to confront the intruder with your gun for protection and then got scared at a noise in the toilet and killed the person behind the door in putative private defense... then for consideration of DE we are not concerned with where you thought Reeva was. We are concerned with your intentions toward whoever was in the toilet.

But if you thought you could lawfully shoot at an intruder where do we account for the thought of unlawfulness against Reeva?
 
Fascinating discussion. My quandary here is that I think Pistorius being convicted of murder is the just outcome, but I'm not sure that it is legally correct, so far as the SCA (as opposed to Masipa) is concerned. Or, at the very least, I think it is being selectively applied.

IMO, Pistorius should have been convicted of DD at the original trial. His "intruder" story was a fairy tale. He had no rational basis for believing that the person in the bathroom was anyone other than the other person in his home. If the court is obliged to accept "well, I thought the other person living here was still in bed -- my bad!" as a valid defense for shooting people in the dark, it would be almost impossible to convict anyone for crime of passion killings with no witnesses.

However, if the SCA was obliged by Masipa's ruling to accept that OP believed an intruder was present, the verdict of murder seems inappropriate to me.

I am a woman who lives alone. No one else but my landlord has a key to my apartment. If tonight I were to wake up at 4AM to find an unknown person in my bathroom, I can be pretty darn sure that person is not in there for any good reason. I would be scared out of my mind, and the last thing I would be doing is considering whether or not my actions met lawful standards of self-defense. My apartment is small, and the most natural thing to do would be to exit as quickly as possible. But if for some reason I couldn't -- like, perhaps, being hampered by not having legs, or (if I actually HAD gone to sleep with someone next to me in bed) worrying about another person I couldn't wake without tipping off the intruder - and had a firearm, well, I'm far from sure I wouldn't use it.

I strongly suspect that were this to happen in SA, and I wound up killing an actual intruder in my home (armed or not), I would not be facing a 15 year murder sentence.

Again, no pity for OP, because I think he is actually guilty of DD. But I agree with those who think the Court is using DE as a consolation prize because the law doesn't allow them to retry DD at this point. If OP had killed a burglar in his home that night, we wouldn't be having the same kind of discussion.

I think you make some great points here and you are absolutely correct in that under the same circumstances, if it was burglar in the home, this would be the end of the discussion and Oscar would be a hero.
 
But if you thought you could lawfully shoot at an intruder where do we account for the thought of unlawfulness against Reeva?

Let me see if I understand what you are asking--

He could only have thought he was entitled to lawfully shoot at an intruder if an attack had commenced or was imminent. His response would have needed to have been proportionate to the perceived attack.

Because of Masipa's factual finding that he believed Reeva to be in the bedroom at the time he shot the intruder, we do not need to consider any unlawful intent toward Reeva. That would relate to DD.

We are working with his story... like it or not.
 
Fascinating discussion. My quandary here is that I think Pistorius being convicted of murder is the just outcome, but I'm not sure that it is legally correct, so far as the SCA (as opposed to Masipa) is concerned. Or, at the very least, I think it is being selectively applied.

IMO, Pistorius should have been convicted of DD at the original trial. His "intruder" story was a fairy tale. He had no rational basis for believing that the person in the bathroom was anyone other than the other person in his home. If the court is obliged to accept "well, I thought the other person living here was still in bed -- my bad!" as a valid defense for shooting people in the dark, it would be almost impossible to convict anyone for crime of passion killings with no witnesses.

However, if the SCA was obliged by Masipa's ruling to accept that OP believed an intruder was present, the verdict of murder seems inappropriate to me.

I am a woman who lives alone. No one else but my landlord has a key to my apartment. If tonight I were to wake up at 4AM to find an unknown person in my bathroom, I can be pretty darn sure that person is not in there for any good reason. I would be scared out of my mind, and the last thing I would be doing is considering whether or not my actions met lawful standards of self-defense. My apartment is small, and the most natural thing to do would be to exit as quickly as possible. But if for some reason I couldn't -- like, perhaps, being hampered by not having legs, or (if I actually HAD gone to sleep with someone next to me in bed) worrying about another person I couldn't wake without tipping off the intruder - and had a firearm, well, I'm far from sure I wouldn't use it.

I strongly suspect that were this to happen in SA, and I wound up killing an actual intruder in my home (armed or not), I would not be facing a 15 year murder sentence.

Again, no pity for OP, because I think he is actually guilty of DD. But I agree with those who think the Court is using DE as a consolation prize because the law doesn't allow them to retry DD at this point. If OP had killed a burglar in his home that night, we wouldn't be having the same kind of discussion.

There is a lot here I would agree with but as our legal eagles have pointed out there are some points that need comment and they have made some very good points. I have no legal experience and value their input greatly. I am of the opinion that the SCA determined from his trial testimony that OP was a pathological liar and the judges took this into account when determining that he must have known that firing four Black Talon bullets into a confined space would very likely cause death.
 
I think you make some great points here and you are absolutely correct in that under the same circumstances, if it was burglar in the home, this would be the end of the discussion and Oscar would be a hero.

How unlucky for him it was Reeva...
 
I think we were originally discussing the topic of Oscar's testimony about how he repeatedly said that he did not intend to shoot, was not thinking, the gun went off before he knew it, he had no intention to shoot at the door or to shoot at any one, and on and on... and you thought the SCA should have given more weight to his less frequent comment that he shot because he had a fright and thought someone might be coming out to attack him. I don't see how either court could very well ignore his dogged testimony that he did not intend to shoot. It was sort of his main thesis.

But if you want to discuss what evidence the courts had available from which they could infer what Oscar was subjectively thinking, that's fine too.

I agree that it could be reasonably possibly true that he thought an intruder might have entered his house.
Many of us have heard a something go bump in the night and have had to confront the same situation and fears at 3:00 a.m.

Masipa, however, explicitly disregarded the defense claims that his particular anxieties and heightened fears as a disabled person would help justify his unlawful over-reactions or irrational response to merely hearing a noise in his bathroom. I don't think you can now expect that the SCA should have given more weight to this aspect of his defense.

However the court does have to consider, subjectively speaking, what Oscar was thinking after he heard the bathroom window slam open and how he then opted not to flee the bedroom or push a panic button to call security. They have to try to get in the mind of this frightened insecure man (on his stumps no less), who arms himself and decides to go confront the dangerous intruder(s). They will note how he paused to assess the situation from the relative safety behind the passageway wall, yet amazingly he still did not take the opportunity to identify the person inside the toilet and determine if they represented a threat. I believe it was at this point that his actions slipped beyond being merely negligent by not locating Reeva first, and it was at this point that his intentions became murderous. This was proven by the fact that he then proceeded with reckless disregard to take the life of the person behind the toilet door without any legitimate basis for thinking the situation called for the use of lethal force. It had to be said then that he did not hold an honest belief that he had no other option but to kill in order to save his own life.

I think that is taking a pretty subjective view of what happened that night.

He said his (overall) intention was to get the intruder out.

However he described his intentions about shooting I see the firing when he thought he heard the door opening as taking precedence. Maybe until that point he did not want to fire, who would, but it was clear on his version that this was what actually caused him to fire and it was to save his own life.
 
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